• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Carmarthen to Aberystwyth Reopening?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
34,105
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
This is the pattern that the current railway electrification programme, High Speed Rail and the Borders railway have all followed. Possibly here too?

Perhaps a word in the ear of the leadership of the SNP to convince them that the west coast of Wales was made an honorary part of Dumfries and Galloway under the Treaty of Perth in 1266, so this project can receive funding from their transport budget.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

yoyothehobo

Member
Joined
21 Aug 2015
Messages
699
Time to start a new MY IDEA FOR A BORDERS EXTENTION - TO CARMARTHEN VIA HAWICK AND ABERYSTWYTH thread.

Just what would suit Wales if it had a fully devolved transport budget. Longer than the borders and serving fewer people.

I think a lot of peoples annoyance with these reopening desk studies is that it is 300,000 pounds spent, that could be better spent elsewhere so a politician can get more votes by promising they will look into something with absolutely no potential. The only reason that people suggest this is because it was there once.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
4,276
Time to start a new MY IDEA FOR A BORDERS EXTENTION - TO CARMARTHEN VIA HAWICK AND ABERYSTWYTH thread.

Just what would suit Wales if it had a fully devolved transport budget. Longer than the borders and serving fewer people.

I think a lot of peoples annoyance with these reopening desk studies is that it is 300,000 pounds spent, that could be better spent elsewhere so a politician can get more votes by promising they will look into something with absolutely no potential. The only reason that people suggest this is because it was there once.

Some people have a very hard time accepting change and accepting that the world will move further and further away from what it was (or what they remember it was) like during their favourite part of their lives. Someone once told me change happens one funeral at a time... Its harsh but there is a lot of truth in it. Reopening the line would clearly be a colossal waste of money and the lack of interest in more sensible options such as enhanced coach services and joint ticketing betrays the motivation for wanting to reopen the line.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
8,084
Location
Herts
Time to start a new MY IDEA FOR A BORDERS EXTENTION - TO CARMARTHEN VIA HAWICK AND ABERYSTWYTH thread.

Just what would suit Wales if it had a fully devolved transport budget. Longer than the borders and serving fewer people.

I think a lot of peoples annoyance with these reopening desk studies is that it is 300,000 pounds spent, that could be better spent elsewhere so a politician can get more votes by promising they will look into something with absolutely no potential. The only reason that people suggest this is because it was there once.

As a minimum - that money could have been usefully spent in maintaining , dare I day it local bus services in the area , or - where it not for the local cab signalling - a summer only additional unit on the Cambrian Coast twixt say Mach and Barmouth , - subject to the usual caveats on train crews etc.

Money lost into the consultancy swamp - which inevitably calls for "more study" ....
 

Rhydgaled

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
4,758
He added that ensuring the TrawsCymru bus service provided a good quality service was a priority currently.
I hope this means the campaign to reopen the railway has focused minds on improving the bus service and that the Welsh Government will now be arranging funding for improvements.

The only reason that people suggest this is because it was there once.
That may be true of many of the pepole promoting the idea but I wouldn't necessarily go along with that being 'the only reason'. My personal opinion is that the TrawsCymru bus network has underdelivered; if I recall correctly when the rebranding was officially announced the two launch routes (TC1 and TC4) were to have brand new buses with improved legroom, coach-style seats and the TC1 was to run from 6am to 8pm. In the event the TC1 didn't happen due to Arriva blocking the Welsh Government's plans and the new buses were stored until finding a use on the Cardiff Airport Express (T9). Thus when the T1 finally arrived normal buses were used and the first bus from Aberystwyth remains at 06:40; reaching Carmarthen at 08:57 (too late for commuters, although there is an earlier bus from Lampeter), the last bus from Carmarthen is 19:05 and the 19:45 from Aberystwyth (last bus for Carmarthen) is a T5 to Cardigan; change at Aberaeron for the T1 to Carmarthen. (Times are from the 2015 timetable, but I don't think it has changed much).

Even the T(C)4, which did get the promissed new buses, isn't particularly great; when I sampled them on the T9 I didn't find the coach-style seats to be any more comfortable than the normal seats on most buses. Also, the 'improved legroom' was limited to a few seats (and even those actually had less legroom than the two 55-plate buses ordered for the TrawsCambria X50 service several years before).

If pepole consider the current public transport offering to be poor it is no wonder that there are demands for improvements; in my opinion it is just a shame that TrawsLinkCymru went straight for a Carmarthen-Aberystwyth rail link as phase 1 of their scheme. I think they should have focused on new/improved Bangor-Caernarfon and Carmarthen-Cardiff rail services with the section in between getting enhanced bus services (and safeguarded rail routes just in case). Maybe throw in an extra passing loop or two on the Cambrian Coast Line to enable a fast Machynlleth-Porthmadog service in (some of) the opposite hours to the current stoppers.

I think a lot of peoples annoyance with these reopening desk studies is that it is 300,000 pounds spent, that could be better spent elsewhere so a politician can get more votes by promising they will look into something with absolutely no potential.
I wouldn't go as far as "absolutely no potential" either, but I object to such sums of money being spent just to decide whether to take a specific scheme forward; especially if it is fairly obvious you don't have the budget to built it anyway. If you are paying a consultant £300,000 it would have been better to set an objective in terms of either reduced car use or reduced greenhouse gas emmisions. The consultant's role would then be to examine various options including bus and different rail routes to establish which offers the best cost:benift ratio (where the benifit is reduced emmisions/car-mileage).

As I said earlier, the main tourist destinations in this area, Aberaeron, New Quay (and Key West), Mwnt, Cenarth Falls and Cardigan aren't on the route of the line and would require passengers changing onto a bus service, so how it would help tourism I fail to understand.
Mwnt isn't on a bus route that you could connect to from a Carmarthen-Aberystwyth train either; if I recall correctly it has two buses each way daily between Quay West and Cardigan in summer and the same timetable (but only 2 or 3 days per week) in winter.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
8,084
Location
Herts
There is a long history back to the SRA , of "costed options" for integrated bus / rail links , none of which were taken up ....so 15/ 20 wasted years of not much action.

Can the Cambrian cost / need another loop. Surely a carefully timed "extra"in high summer would tick a few boxes for reducing crowding and increase accessibility. ?

I have never been to Mwnt - but even 40 years ago it was referred to as "a suntrap" ...sounds Great !
 

Rhydgaled

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
4,758
Can the Cambrian cost / need another loop. Surely a carefully timed "extra"in high summer would tick a few boxes for reducing crowding and increase accessibility.
The Cambrian Coast does have more loops than are needed for the current timetable; however if you want to run one or more extra trains in the opposite hour to the existing ones (so that they connect with the Aberystwyth line at Dovey Junction) then they will need to pass at Dovey Junction, just as the Aberystwyth trains do. There is no loop on the coast-side at Dovey Junction, so you'd either need a loop there or terminate coast trains at Dovey Junction with no through-running to Machynlleth/Birmingham.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
8,084
Location
Herts
The Cambrian Coast does have more loops than are needed for the current timetable; however if you want to run one or more extra trains in the opposite hour to the existing ones (so that they connect with the Aberystwyth line at Dovey Junction) then they will need to pass at Dovey Junction, just as the Aberystwyth trains do. There is no loop on the coast-side at Dovey Junction, so you'd either need a loop there or terminate coast trains at Dovey Junction with no through-running to Machynlleth/Birmingham.

Agreed , I can think of a few good working planners who could work on this ..!
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,101
Location
North Wales
Agreed , I can think of a few good working planners who could work on this ..!
And I believe some work has already been done in this vein: viz. the planned extra summer weekend fasts planned for the Cambrian Coast in the forthcoming francihse, which iirc. will only run as far as Dovey Jn.
 

Cambrian359

Member
Joined
17 Jun 2018
Messages
270
And I believe some work has already been done in this vein: viz. the planned extra summer weekend fasts planned for the Cambrian Coast in the forthcoming francihse, which iirc. will only run as far as Dovey Jn.
Fast services from Tywyn to pwllheli on summer Sundays from 2025 is the plan I believe

Correction -
  • Additional summer Sunday services from May 2023 between Tywyn and Pwllheli – including a new 1tph express service between major centres by 2025
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
8,084
Location
Herts
And I believe some work has already been done in this vein: viz. the planned extra summer weekend fasts planned for the Cambrian Coast in the forthcoming francihse, which iirc. will only run as far as Dovey Jn.

Which is very good news....(and was aware of it anyway)
 

Statto

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2011
Messages
3,547
Location
At home or at the pub
The Welsh railways are fragmented, it’s almost impossible to get around using them.

Indeed, simple journey like Pwllheli to Bangor can take about 90-100 minutes if you time the bus right & change at Caernarfon [prob around 60 minutes maybe less in a car], train journey 6 hours minimum by going the long way around & changing at Shrewsbury. National Rail planner doesn't give the times by changing for the Ffestiniog Railway at Minffordd, even then it's 6 trains a day Monday to Saturday, down the Conwy Valley line.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
34,105
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
Indeed, simple journey like Pwllheli to Bangor can take about 90-100 minutes if you time the bus right & change at Caernarfon [prob around 60 minutes maybe less in a car], train journey 6 hours minimum by going the long way around & changing at Shrewsbury. National Rail planner doesn't give the times by changing for the Ffestiniog Railway at Minffordd, even then it's 6 trains a day Monday to Saturday, down the Conwy Valley line.

Are not "premium" fares charged on the Ffestiniog Railway in comparison to those of normal rail travel?
 

Parallel

Established Member
Joined
9 Dec 2013
Messages
4,151
I don’t really see what a benefit a fast service would have between Tywyn and Pwllheli. Bearing in mind the passing points are fairly evenly spaced, a fast service would surely just end up waiting at two passing loop for ages? Also, many request stops generate steady traffic to the towns on the route. Namely Penhelig, Llwyngwril, Morfa Mawddach, Talybont, Dyffryn Ardudwy, Llanbedr & Talsarnau, some of which are busier than stations such as Minffordd and Criccieth. Also, from previous experiences, the busiest part of the line seems to be Machynlleth - Barmouth/Harlech. Also, if Machynlleth are crewing a Dovey Junction starter, if the preceding Aber train (to get them to DJ) is cancelled - They’d also need to cancel the Dovey Junction - Pwllheli, or delay it whilst they send crew in a taxi which would have a knock on effect to all services on the line due to the passing points at loops.

Obviously the more expensive option but a passing hoop at Dovey Junction (or double the track between Mach and Dovey) with trains running through to at least Mach (or attaching onto ex-Aber trains) would I suspect be better for reliability, but I doubt it would happen.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,101
Location
North Wales
I don’t really see what a benefit a fast service would have between Tywyn and Pwllheli. Bearing in mind the passing points are fairly evenly spaced, a fast service would surely just end up waiting at two passing loop for ages? Also, many request stops generate steady traffic to the towns on the route. Namely Penhelig, Llwyngwril, Morfa Mawddach, Talybont, Dyffryn Ardudwy, Llanbedr & Talsarnau, some of which are busier than stations such as Minffordd and Criccieth. Also, from previous experiences, the busiest part of the line seems to be Machynlleth - Barmouth/Harlech. Also, if Machynlleth are crewing a Dovey Junction starter, if the preceding Aber train (to get them to DJ) is cancelled - They’d also need to cancel the Dovey Junction - Pwllheli, or delay it whilst they send crew in a taxi which would have a knock on effect to all services on the line due to the passing points at loops.

Obviously the more expensive option but a passing hoop at Dovey Junction (or double the track between Mach and Dovey) with trains running through to at least Mach (or attaching onto ex-Aber trains) would I suspect be better for reliability, but I doubt it would happen.

I think the intention is for the Summer fasts to act as crowdbusters of the coast, making space on the through stoppers.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,837
I don’t really see what a benefit a fast service would have between Tywyn and Pwllheli. Bearing in mind the passing points are fairly evenly spaced, a fast service would surely just end up waiting at two passing loop for ages? Also, many request stops generate steady traffic to the towns on the route. Namely Penhelig, Llwyngwril, Morfa Mawddach, Talybont, Dyffryn Ardudwy, Llanbedr & Talsarnau, some of which are busier than stations such as Minffordd and Criccieth. Also, from previous experiences, the busiest part of the line seems to be Machynlleth - Barmouth/Harlech. Also, if Machynlleth are crewing a Dovey Junction starter, if the preceding Aber train (to get them to DJ) is cancelled - They’d also need to cancel the Dovey Junction - Pwllheli, or delay it whilst they send crew in a taxi which would have a knock on effect to all services on the line due to the passing points at loops.

Obviously the more expensive option but a passing hoop at Dovey Junction (or double the track between Mach and Dovey) with trains running through to at least Mach (or attaching onto ex-Aber trains) would I suspect be better for reliability, but I doubt it would happen.

A taxi to Dovey Junction would be tricky wouldn't it? Unless they've provided road access.
And attaching at Dovey Jn is surely a non-starter given the y-shaped layout?
 

Parallel

Established Member
Joined
9 Dec 2013
Messages
4,151
A taxi to Dovey Junction would be tricky wouldn't it? Unless they've provided road access.
And attaching at Dovey Jn is surely a non-starter given the y-shaped layout?
Indeed. It is probably nearly a mile walk from the road to the station. I was thinking the extra trains could attach at Mach, as happens now. I’m not sure an hourly fast service would reduce a great deal of overcrowding on the current stopping trains, due to a lot of the traffic on the route being localised. I think an hourly ‘all stops’ would be better. Maybe omitting some of the really quiet stations such as Tonfanau, Tygwyn, Llandecwyn and Abererch for example, so those travelling from Dyffryn/Talybont/Morfa to places like Barmouth, Harlech and Porthmadog get an hourly service, spreading out the loadings over both trains, and there then being a little more room for those boarding the lesser used (but still used) stations.
 
Last edited:

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
73,508
Location
Yorkshire
Just a reminder that this thread is to discuss Carmarthen to Aberystwyth Reopening
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
34,105
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
I am now 73 years of age. What is more likely to happen on my 83rd birthday.......

A)....The first train to run on this railway.

B)...My good self quaffing a couple of pints in the Railway Inn, then strolling up to the site of the former railway station at Maesycrugiau when in a setting of twilight, I will give a rendition of "Ar Hyd y Nos" backed by the Treochy Male Voice Choir.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,101
Location
North Wales
I am now 73 years of age. What is more likely to happen on my 83rd birthday.......

A)....The first train to run on this railway.

B)...My good self quaffing a couple of pints in the Railway Inn, then strolling up to the site of the former railway station at Maesycrugiau when in a setting of twilight, I will give a rendition of "Ar Hyd y Nos" backed by the Treochy Male Voice Choir.
I'll gladly join you for the latter (and for the harmonies)!
 

D1009

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2012
Messages
3,166
Location
Stoke Gifford
I am now 73 years of age. What is more likely to happen on my 83rd birthday.......

A)....The first train to run on this railway.

B)...My good self quaffing a couple of pints in the Railway Inn, then strolling up to the site of the former railway station at Maesycrugiau when in a setting of twilight, I will give a rendition of "Ar Hyd y Nos" backed by the Treochy Male Voice Choir.

Sadly the Old Railway Inn is no more.

https://whatpub.com/pubs/TEI/40/old-railway-inn-maesycrugiau
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top