Aviation Discussion

[theageofthetra]

Assuming theageofthetra saw a prop aircraft, my bet is a DC6, as the one that is in the Red Bull fleet is at Farnborough.

Am sure it was a prop aircraft- it was going away and hard to see. The tail was definitely not like on a modern aircraft. It was the low altitude that caught my attention. A DC6 looks about right.

 

[Aictos]

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet but the aircraft formerly known as Bombardier CS100 and Bombardier CS300 are now to be marketed as Airbus 220-100 and Airbus 220-300, no prizes for guessing which is which!

 

[InterCity:125]

Airbus bought 51% of the c-series program. I still think c series is a better name though

 

[InterCity:125]

Am sure it was a prop aircraft- it was going away and hard to see. The tail was definitely not like on a modern aircraft. It was the low altitude that caught my attention. A DC6 looks about right.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I hadn't heard of that -6; it would certainly fit the bill; is there any way of knowing if it was around on the day in question?

 

[InterCity:125]

That video was posted 7 days ago

 

[AlterEgo]

Travelled with Level on their new short haul route from Gatwick into Vienna on Saturday. I have to say it was the blandest, most nondescript airline I have ever travelled on, and there is almost nothing I can say about them. I took advantage of their 1 cent fare which they had upon launch to make the trip.

 

[fowler9]

Dunno, but it can't be worse than Schoenefeld, which is definitely not "schoen".

Joint worst airport I have used is Schoenefeld. As a contrast yesterday I flew out of Gdansk, really nice, plenty of space and facilities, very light and airy and relatively cheap.

 

[AlterEgo]

Around 13.20 today I saw what looked like an old four engined aircraft heading north over London whilst I was at London Bridge. I reckon it would have been over North London at the angle I was.

It looked like it had a quite vertical tail- the nearest aircraft I can think of it resembled was an old Bristol Britannia.

Any ideas what it was?

Probably the Red Bull DC-6 as others have said. A tweet here says it had returned to FNB, so was certainly airborne on the day you saw it. https://mobile.twitter.com/farnboroughspot/status/1019997488038793218

 

[OneOffDave]

I think the DC-6 was my favourite of the weekend, esp when in company with the Alpha jet

 

[theageofthetra]

Probably the Red Bull DC-6 as others have said. A tweet here says it had returned to FNB, so was certainly airborne on the day you saw it. https://mobile.twitter.com/farnboroughspot/status/1019997488038793218

Yes I'm sure it was that- it was ferrying VIP's about apparently . Am curious though why Red Bull have it- aren't they all about fast, modern things- F1, Wing Suits , Stunt planes/cars etc?

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes I'm sure it was that- it was ferrying VIP's about apparently . Am curious though why Red Bull have it- aren't they all about fast, modern things- F1, Wing Suits , Stunt planes/cars etc?

They have a collection of all sorts of aircraft. Dietrich Mateschitz (Red Bull founder) likes his planes.

https://www.flyingbulls.at/en/fleet/

 

[atillathehunn]

6 flights in 6 days, half business half pleasure.

Dusseldorf - what a crap airport. Assumed German efficiency, but unruly crowds with people pushing in from all sides, utterly rude security staff, and nowhere near enough seats on a Friday night. Bottle of water in the one shop in the Manchester flight departure area wanted €5.50. Thankfully vending machine wanted only €2.50.

Manchester - utter, utter chaos as the new drop off payment machines were broken, no signs on where the new pick up area is, no idea where meet and greet is, and they have the audacity to charge you for it! Absolute joke. Security first thing in the morning in T3 took over an hour. I've booked a trip to the UK long haul for the winter, and I booked to London and will take the train or rent a car. Manchester can go and stuff itself. According to flight diary I've flown through there more than 100 times, and it just keeps getting worse.

Milan Malpensa: not great. Luggage hall has the ceiling unfinished and no AC. Very long walk to the train and only three ticket machines for the train at the busiest time of day. Expensive for the journey to Centrale.

Milan Bergamo: Long queues, but security not horrific. Couple in front of me were surprised to be told they cannot take three bottles of wine in their hand baggage.

Turkish airlines: nice way to fly, even if rule adherence is a little off. Seat belt sign ignored by passengers and not enforced by crew. Standing in the aisles while still braking on the runway. But decent enough service and the best economy food in the sky.

SAW airport in Istanbul: Domestic: shambles. International: air conditioned shambles, though infinitely better than domestic.

 

[atillathehunn]

Travelled with Level on their new short haul route from Gatwick into Vienna on Saturday. I have to say it was the blandest, most nondescript airline I have ever travelled on, and there is almost nothing I can say about them. I took advantage of their 1 cent fare which they had upon launch to make the trip.

Even the livery is bland!

 

[AlterEgo]

Even the livery is bland!

I tweeted about this at the time, saying it looked like a default AI aircraft in a flight simulator. Lots of people agreed!

 

[atillathehunn]

I tweeted about this at the time, saying it looked like a default AI aircraft in a flight simulator. Lots of people agreed!

On the other hand, when your competition is Ryanair who evoke very strong emotion one way or the other, being a bit bland might not be a bad thing. Never flown with them, unlikely ever to, but it's good to get a report from them!

 

[atillathehunn]

Air Belgium: I flew Manchester - Charleroi the other day. On the flight there were a lot of Hong Kong people, all with a lot of checked baggage, who did not appear to head to the outside at Charleroi, rather turn left towards check in. Either they were lost, or they were doing an unofficial connection onto the Air Belgium flight to Hong Kong. Just a suspicion.

 

[Dentonian]

6 flights in 6 days, half business half pleasure.

Dusseldorf - what a crap airport. Assumed German efficiency, but unruly crowds with people pushing in from all sides, utterly rude security staff, and nowhere near enough seats on a Friday night. Bottle of water in the one shop in the Manchester flight departure area wanted €5.50. Thankfully vending machine wanted only €2.50.

Manchester - utter, utter chaos as the new drop off payment machines were broken, no signs on where the new pick up area is, no idea where meet and greet is, and they have the audacity to charge you for it! Absolute joke. Security first thing in the morning in T3 took over an hour. I've booked a trip to the UK long haul for the winter, and I booked to London and will take the train or rent a car. Manchester can go and stuff itself. According to flight diary I've flown through there more than 100 times, and it just keeps getting worse.

Milan Malpensa: not great. Luggage hall has the ceiling unfinished and no AC. Very long walk to the train and only three ticket machines for the train at the busiest time of day. Expensive for the journey to Centrale.

Milan Bergamo: Long queues, but security not horrific. Couple in front of me were surprised to be told they cannot take three bottles of wine in their hand baggage.

Turkish airlines: nice way to fly, even if rule adherence is a little off. Seat belt sign ignored by passengers and not enforced by crew. Standing in the aisles while still braking on the runway. But decent enough service and the best economy food in the sky.

SAW airport in Istanbul: Domestic: shambles. International: air conditioned shambles, though infinitely better than domestic.

Manchester ' s security delay s are the fault of Whitehall run Border Force.

 

[atillathehunn]

Manchester ' s security delay s are the fault of Whitehall run Border Force.

I don't care. It was an utter joke, and I'm not playing. Plenty of other routes and options.

 

[AlterEgo]

Manchester ' s security delay s are the fault of Whitehall run Border Force.

In what way?

 

[Dentonian]

In what way?

Under staffing

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Manchester ' s security delay s are the fault of Whitehall run Border Force.

In this case I'm afraid your home town loyalty is mis-placed. If the security delays were due to Home Office decisions on staffing levels then the same problems would be evident at just about all of the UK's airports. But they're not. The problems are very much to do with the way Manchester's traffic has evolved in recent times while the terminals stayed as they are. For an awful long time MAN had the expectation that future growth would be driven by increased long-haul flying which would be easy enough to accommodate at T2. In reality long-haul growth, until quite recently, was sluggish with ME3 growth off-setting TATL decline. But short-haul growth has been significant and MAN has struggled to cope. The current project, still in its early days, to virtually rebuild all terminal facilities will produce an airport much better suited to passenger needs but until it is completed many of the current problems will continue. In fairness to the airport management the issues surrounding ownership did hold back redevelopment until they were resolved. In the meantime it should be no surprise that people like atillathehunn will exercise their right to choose and fly elsewhere.

 

[Dentonian]

In this case I'm afraid your home town loyalty is mis-placed. If the security delays were due to Home Office decisions on staffing levels then the same problems would be evident at just about all of the UK's airports. But they're not. The problems are very much to do with the way Manchester's traffic has evolved in recent times while the terminals stayed as they are. For an awful long time MAN had the expectation that future growth would be driven by increased long-haul flying which would be easy enough to accommodate at T2. In reality long-haul growth, until quite recently, was sluggish with ME3 growth off-setting TATL decline. But short-haul growth has been significant and MAN has struggled to cope. The current project, still in its early days, to virtually rebuild all terminal facilities will produce an airport much better suited to passenger needs but until it is completed many of the current problems will continue. In fairness to the airport management the issues surrounding ownership did hold back redevelopment until they were resolved. In the meantime it should be no surprise that people like atillathehunn will exercise their right to choose and fly elsewhere.

You might be right, strategically, but it has been reported that Border Force have been very poor in rostering their staff to suit actual peaks. I'm guessing (from anecdotal/media reports) that the biggest delays at security have been early in the morning. Admittedly, I only fly a couple of times a year - and if both health and Brexit/EHIC developments go against me, I may never leave the country again - but I've never experienced delays of more tha 15 minutes. The only problem I have noticed is the lack of communication between staff when it comes to specialist items being scanned (Medically prescribed drinks in containers over 100ml in my case) seperately and then just abandoned.
Indeed, I've had worse Security delays abroad (eg. Toulouse) and at more off-peak times.

 

[AlterEgo]

Under staffing

I mean how are the Border Force responsible for delays at security?

Border Force are the immigration agency, not the contractors who run security.

 

[Dentonian]

I mean how are the Border Force responsible for delays at security?

Border Force are the immigration agency, not the contractors who run security.

I'm getting a bit confused because there has also been media criticism locally of long delays at Passport control - which is presumably where the question of Immigration comes in. But who is (ultimately) responsible for Airport Security bearing in mind the rules (liquid limitations in the cabin etc) are National if not International directives.

I take your point about capacity, and it does beg the question why some Airlines have been switched to T3. I can see why there needs to be ease of transfer from domestic to international for FlyBe for instance, but maybe Ryanair and Air France/KLM should have stayed on T2 and AA/BA could switch to T1. Though I do recall Mr O'Leary did what he is won't to do and that is to demand favourable treatment with T2 regarded as too far from the Runways.

attila' s point about drop off charges is more complicated and is labelled in the usual way. Every running cost for motorists is regarded as a "rip off" (including fines for inconveniencing and endangering others) whilst users of other modes are just acceptable stooges of the free market. But more practically, Drop Off charges are widely in use at other UK Airports and any regular visitor to the Airport knows that there was a serious congestion problem accessing T1 & T3 car parks at various times of the day. As usual, it has been the typical British way of doing things transport wise that has largely let the Airport down ie. Stick before Carrot and poor communication both in terms of notice and detail. That and typical MEN coverage of finding someone who has clearly NOT considered alternatives to paint as a "victim" of the new policy. I also wonder if attila's experience coincided with a specific fault with the barriers that just happened to occur when the protesting taxi drivers did a go slow to cripple the system.

 

[atillathehunn]

I'm getting a bit confused because there has also been media criticism locally of long delays at Passport control - which is presumably where the question of Immigration comes in. But who is (ultimately) responsible for Airport Security bearing in mind the rules (liquid limitations in the cabin etc) are National if not International directives.

I take your point about capacity, and it does beg the question why some Airlines have been switched to T3. I can see why there needs to be ease of transfer from domestic to international for FlyBe for instance, but maybe Ryanair and Air France/KLM should have stayed on T2 and AA/BA could switch to T1. Though I do recall Mr O'Leary did what he is won't to do and that is to demand favourable treatment with T2 regarded as too far from the Runways.

attila' s point about drop off charges is more complicated and is labelled in the usual way. Every running cost for motorists is regarded as a "rip off" (including fines for inconveniencing and endangering others) whilst users of other modes are just acceptable stooges of the free market. But more practically, Drop Off charges are widely in use at other UK Airports and any regular visitor to the Airport knows that there was a serious congestion problem accessing T1 & T3 car parks at various times of the day. As usual, it has been the typical British way of doing things transport wise that has largely let the Airport down ie. Stick before Carrot and poor communication both in terms of notice and detail. That and typical MEN coverage of finding someone who has clearly NOT considered alternatives to paint as a "victim" of the new policy. I also wonder if attila's experience coincided with a specific fault with the barriers that just happened to occur when the protesting taxi drivers did a go slow to cripple the system.

Passport I have heard can be horrendous. Generally, I arrive in the late evening after work so selfishly this isn't too often a problem. What absolutely infuriates me at security is they have half the booths closed! This and the insistence that each item has its own tray, which just clogs the entire system. Rude staff, shouting staff, staff who make up rules, no logic, no foresight, failing to pay enough staff.


The drop off/pick up charge: tried to use both times, neither time it worked leading to absolute and utter chaos. Not everything to do with motorists is a rip off (well not to me - I live in a high taxation country used to speeding tickets as a % of salary, high parking fines and very high vehicle taxes). But in this example, it's a rip off because it doesn't offer benefit to anybody except the company's bottom line. I use public transport extensively, to every single airport I've used in Europe (including in the UK), across Africa, Asia and the Middle East (except a few cases where the very charitable UN picks me up in a nice Land Cruiser and we skip some jams). But to Manchester, I cannot. I visit my parents about 20/25 miles from MAN, and the railway line to their town runs pretty close to Manchester airport (planes are skimming the roofs at Knutsford) but it takes me over an hour by train and is a bit expensive for the service provided and doesn't start early enough. It takes 1.40 minutes to do Airport - their station. That's 1/3 of the time to get from Heathrow, which is what I'm doing next time. The cheaper ticket offset with a profit the cost of the train for my partner and I. There are no buses. They don't live in a backwater, and just along the road they live on (20 houses) I know of 3 people who commute by plane from MAN, and plenty in the town, not to mention VFR people like me, and it's wealthy so plenty of holidaymakers. At this point, the drop off charge is just a tax for people who dare not to live in central Manchester or on the Pennine route which feeds (occasionally, when they're not cancelled) the airport.

 

[Dentonian]

Passport I have heard can be horrendous. Generally, I arrive in the late evening after work so selfishly this isn't too often a problem. What absolutely infuriates me at security is they have half the booths closed! This and the insistence that each item has its own tray, which just clogs the entire system. Rude staff, shouting staff, staff who make up rules, no logic, no foresight, failing to pay enough staff.


The drop off/pick up charge: tried to use both times, neither time it worked leading to absolute and utter chaos. Not everything to do with motorists is a rip off (well not to me - I live in a high taxation country used to speeding tickets as a % of salary, high parking fines and very high vehicle taxes). But in this example, it's a rip off because it doesn't offer benefit to anybody except the company's bottom line. I use public transport extensively, to every single airport I've used in Europe (including in the UK), across Africa, Asia and the Middle East (except a few cases where the very charitable UN picks me up in a nice Land Cruiser and we skip some jams). But to Manchester, I cannot. I visit my parents about 20/25 miles from MAN, and the railway line to their town runs pretty close to Manchester airport (planes are skimming the roofs at Knutsford) but it takes me over an hour by train and is a bit expensive for the service provided and doesn't start early enough. It takes 1.40 minutes to do Airport - their station. That's 1/3 of the time to get from Heathrow, which is what I'm doing next time. The cheaper ticket offset with a profit the cost of the train for my partner and I. There are no buses. They don't live in a backwater, and just along the road they live on (20 houses) I know of 3 people who commute by plane from MAN, and plenty in the town, not to mention VFR people like me, and it's wealthy so plenty of holidaymakers. At this point, the drop off charge is just a tax for people who dare not to live in central Manchester or on the Pennine route which feeds (occasionally, when they're not cancelled) the airport.

The "rip-off" remark is very general as every media outlet and motoring lobby (which is very powerful in the UK) rejects the idea that speeding is dangerous and other offences are inconvenient (not least to other motorists). As I say, in this case, there IS a good reason for targetting the number of drop offs, but whether the cost is proportionate I don't know, especially (as you quite rightly point out) the public transport alternatives are patchy. There is an alternative arrangement allowing people to park at Jetparks and use a free bus (ironically provided by the only brand new buses Gtr. Manchester is likely to see this financial year, but it looks like the "grace" period for allowing people to get to/from the terminals might need extending, at least whilst things settle down. There are 6 buses supposedly running every 12 minutes, allowing 72 minutes (including loading) to get round he three Terminals, which - with he reduced traffic congestion (!) should be far more than enough. Maybe they should be running every 10 minutes.
The media example, btw, was of a worker saying that he gets a taxi to work at the Airport from nearby Wythenshawe. He quoted a £5 fare increasing to £8.50 with the drop off, for journeys to/from night shifts. Given typical taxi fares, the original £5 at this time suggests a journey of barely ONE mile. Now, I suppose it could be argued that Wythenshawe is not a safe place to walk at night, but one wonders if he has considered the one remaining direct bus service, which just happens to run 24/7 to serve Airport shift workers. Alternatively, it again questions the ethos of Metrolink. Either, he doesn't live anywhere near the Metrolink line or it doesn't run overnight. Given the billions of investment in Rail in the UK, it is utterly pointless to penny pinch on manning trams for the one line that should run overnight. Incidentally, a very similar argument would apply in a similar News item about commuters parking in a residential area about a mile from the city centre because city centre parking rates were considered unaffordable. In this case the MEN interviewed someone with an expensive looking "hot hatch" who drove from Eccles (about 4 miles from the western fringes of the city centre)............which also just happens to be on a Metrolink line. So much for Metrolink giving people an alternative to driving!!!!

 

[thejuggler]

I suffered Man T2 a couple of weeks ago. Our flight was at 6.30am on a Monday. Arrived at T2 long stay. 30 minute wait for a 10 minute bus service.

The new drop off charges are resulting in cars stopping anywhere and dropping people off.

Security, what a joke. Hundreds of people, just 2 scanners manned.

More staff arrived at 5am and there were then 4 scanners open.

Then led to a gate with about 100 seats. Two flights called, so 400 people, then a further 200 who needed to go to the info desk in our area to pick up mean vouchers due to delay. Chaos when flights called.

Airbridge failed. 30 minute wait for steps.

We did well and landed 30 minutes early. Sent to the far end of T2 where the new terminal is being built. 40 minutes sat on the aircraft waiting for steps and then buses!

Passport queue was then 150-200m. One person manually checking, everyone else advised to use self scanning. Another 30 minute wait for a 10 minute bus service to the car.

From landing to getting back to the car? 2 hours.

 

[Dentonian]

I suffered Man T2 a couple of weeks ago. Our flight was at 6.30am on a Monday. Arrived at T2 long stay. 30 minute wait for a 10 minute bus service.

The new drop off charges are resulting in cars stopping anywhere and dropping people off.

Security, what a joke. Hundreds of people, just 2 scanners manned.

More staff arrived at 5am and there were then 4 scanners open.

Then led to a gate with about 100 seats. Two flights called, so 400 people, then a further 200 who needed to go to the info desk in our area to pick up mean vouchers due to delay. Chaos when flights called.

Airbridge failed. 30 minute wait for steps.

We did well and landed 30 minutes early. Sent to the far end of T2 where the new terminal is being built. 40 minutes sat on the aircraft waiting for steps and then buses!

Passport queue was then 150-200m. One person manually checking, everyone else advised to use self scanning. Another 30 minute wait for a 10 minute bus service to the car.

From landing to getting back to the car? 2 hours.

Can't comment on the other aspects but the problem was cars were stopping anywhere and dropping off even before the new regime came into effect - including on roundabouts and blocking emergency roads.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Can't comment on the other aspects but the problem was cars were stopping anywhere and dropping off even before the new regime came into effect - including on roundabouts and blocking emergency roads.

On that basis it would be better to ban all cars from coming anywhere near the terminals and provide a dedicated remote drop-off/pick-up area. You could then remove parking from the terminals making future remodelling easier too. Essentially have the public entrance to the airport for non-public transport users as a completely separate facility. Perhaps build a skyscraper sized multi-storey car park on top of Wythenshawe Bus Station. /sarcasm mode