ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[jingsmonty]

They look quite nice from the outside, but seem to have small windows and on the TPE ones window alignment reminiscent of a Class 313. The WCML EMUs are much better, shame they didn't deliver a LHCS vehicle based on those.

When WILL TOCS learn that passengers actually LIKE to look out of the windows sometimes! Particularly important on the sort of scenic routes we have on Scotrail - makes me glad they went for HST/Mk3!

Interestingly (probably should be on another thread - apologies), I believe the Nat Express Scotrail franchise bid was for brand new loco hauled stock (presumably Class 68s/Mk5s).

 

[43096]

I've read that the GEC traction motors caused endless problems when these power cars were built (1980/81ish, I believe?), but, surely now, over 35 Years on, the issues have been solved! I am a bit suprised that Scotrail didn't go for the Brush motored ones, rather than a mixture, just to maintain a common part?

It's a fundamental design flaw that has been lived with since new. In fairness, Landore depot have managed the issues since the affected power cars were transferred there some years ago. The interesting bit with ScotRail is that the problem generally first becomes apparent through power-to-earth faults at over 100mph. With ScotRail not having any 100mph+ running they will need to be doing some preventative checks to avoid some big bills when motors go bang.

I suspect ScotRail getting the GEC motors was down to either a) ScotRail not understanding the differences (a power car is a power car is a power car to the uninitiated) or b) Angel told them they were having the GEC ones.

 

[D1009]

When WILL TOCS learn that passengers actually LIKE to look out of the windows sometimes! Particularly important on the sort of scenic routes we have on Scotrail - makes me glad they went for HST/Mk3!

The view out of the windows of the GWR HSTs with their high density high backed seats, which don't necessarily line up with the windows, is nowhere near as good as that offered by the 170.

 

[mullac30]

The view out of the windows of the GWR HSTs with their high density high backed seats, which don't necessarily line up with the windows, is nowhere near as good as that offered by the 170.

Scotrail are reconfiguring the seats to add more leg room and align with the windows.

 

[DackandBlecker]

New trains should have been ordered, and as already said, there's plenty of very good options out there.

Agree.

Mark 5 with diesels on a lease until the various routes are wired up, and electrics with final mile diesel engine thereafter.

Would love to know carbon emissions for going with the HST option, than a latest generation.

 

[Mag_seven]

43032/43168 are en-route from Brush works to Inverness today:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R41159/2018/07/23/advanced

(real headcode is 0S03).

Photo (not mine):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/159372411@N05/29718027098

 

[dmkc]

So how many PCs are with scotrail now, both refurb and unrefurb

 

[Northhighland]

Agree.

Mark 5 with diesels on a lease until the various routes are wired up, and electrics with final mile diesel engine thereafter.

Would love to know carbon emissions for going with the HST option, than a latest generation.

Final mile? Don’t think it will ever be the final mile to Inverness or Aberdeen. Final couple of hundred maybe.

Mark 5 with loco does sound sensible though.

 

[Northhighland]

Having driven the HST training train on the HML, I would say that the performance on the steep gradients is nothing short of phenomenal - think 80mph line speed (at intermediate power notch), as opposed to 50-55mph at full throttle in a 158 or 170. Given the high power/weight ratio, you tend to spend a lot of time coasting - it's been calculated that they will be slightly more economical than a 4 car 158. Presumably this would have been considered & been found to be a better option than a 4/5 coach with 1 power car & a dvt? Trust me, the acceleration is game changing!

As for comfort - I have travelled down on the training train & have also travelled North on a 170 - no comparison, Mk3 every time! The 170 had knackered aircon on a hot day & usual HML summer train issues of full toilets, grossly inefficient luggage storage & not enough seats. These trains, I predict, will be a hit with the Scottish public - comfier coaches & quicker trains. The 170s are NOT InterCity trains!

New rolling stock may have been an option (I was half expecting the HSTs to ve cancelled & an add on order for bi-mode Hitachi class 802s instead, but HST is a good option).

The HST clearly isn't the most up to date train out there, but it is as tough as old boots & a proven design.

Even HST power cars with brand new Mk5 coaches (with compatible electrics & a coupler change on the power cars) might have been an option, but a Mk3 with power doors & retention tank toilets will still be far superior to what we have now!

This post sums it up. The HST will be a huge hit wit the public. Regular HML travellers like myself will be ecstatic with the change. I firmly predict they will increase passenger numbers significantly as the experience will be so much better.

Just need to see them in action.

 

[Northhighland]

43032/43168 are en-route from Brush works to Inverness today:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R41159/2018/07/23/advanced

(real headcode is 0S03).

Photo (not mine):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/159372411@N05/29718027098

Any reason to send two power cars to Inverness with no coaches?

 

[Rail Blues]

This post sums it up. The HST will be a huge hit wit the public. Regular HML travellers like myself will be ecstatic with the change. I firmly predict they will increase passenger numbers significantly as the experience will be so much better.

Just need to see them in action.

I wouldn't be so sure, the '40 year old cast offs and not good enough for English passengers' angle has already been played up and if they prove to be unreliable in service, then I can see that turning into a chorus of disapproval. It may or may not be warranted, but the press have plenty of material for a hatchet job.

 

[cactustwirly]

Any reason to send two power cars to Inverness with no coaches?

Coaches aren't ready yet

 

[gingertom]

Final mile? Don’t think it will ever be the final mile to Inverness or Aberdeen. Final couple of hundred maybe.

Mark 5 with loco does sound sensible though.

if only the class 88 could have the big Cat engine from the 68 in it. Doesn't fit UK loading gauge

 

[kje7812]

This post sums it up. The HST will be a huge hit wit the public. Regular HML travellers like myself will be ecstatic with the change. I firmly predict they will increase passenger numbers significantly as the experience will be so much better.

Just need to see them in action.

I wouldn't be so sure, the '40 year old cast offs and not good enough for English passengers' angle has already been played up and if they prove to be unreliable in service, then I can see that turning into a chorus of disapproval. It may or may not be warranted, but the press have plenty of material for a hatchet job.

I would say it's in the balance. If it goes smoothly from now, they'll be liked. If there's more delays or issues, the public will turn away from it. Bad publicity can kill a project. APT anyone?

 

[Stoney1979]

I am new to here, I've been lurking for a few weeks and been fascinated / frustrated by some of the debate.

I chose my first bedroom in Stonehaven in the mid 1970s because I could see the railway from it. I witnessed the disappearance of the Deltics to be replaced by the HST. One of the first railway journeys I took was in the late 70s from Stonehaven to Montrose on the new HST, to visit the new Fine Fare supermarket there! Changed days, but it was a big deal at the time.

I have a deep affection for the HST and was absolutely delighted and excited to hear some of these grand old ladies would see out their days plying the scenic routes across Scotland. To my mind, a fitting retirement for them having, arguably, saved British railways after the APT episode. There are very different views on this, I know, but that's not the point of this post so please don't have a go on that front, each to their own opinion, I hope.

Anyway, living in highland Perthshire now, I travel the Pitlochry to Edinburgh route regularly, or at least I used to. I mostly drive now as the service, particularly in the summer, is nothing short of abject misery. Mostly 170s stuffed to the rafters with tourists and luggage, hot, noisy, buses-on-rails, it's an awful experience right now. Tourist numbers are massive just now but the current service is a complete embarrassment to Scotland. If I can't take the 0924 LNER HST to Ed, I drive instead.

The reason I searched t'internet and ended up here was that I wanted to find out where the mooted HSTs are! My questions have been answered but, notwithstanding the various arguments and opinions about this and that, the HSTs are DESPERATELY needed on the highland line right now. I'm biased, I know, but I think when they do come they really will transform things, not seen since they first came in way back when I was 8 years old in 1979. I'll certainly be returning to the rails when they eventually come in.

 

[theironroad]

I am new to here, I've been lurking for a few weeks and been fascinated / frustrated by some of the debate.

I chose my first bedroom in Stonehaven in the mid 1970s because I could see the railway from it. I witnessed the disappearance of the Deltics to be replaced by the HST. One of the first railway journeys I took was in the late 70s from Stonehaven to Montrose on the new HST, to visit the new Fine Fare supermarket there! Changed days, but it was a big deal at the time.

I have a deep affection for the HST and was absolutely delighted and excited to hear some of these grand old ladies would see out their days plying the scenic routes across Scotland. To my mind, a fitting retirement for them having, arguably, saved British railways after the APT episode. There are very different views on this, I know, but that's not the point of this post so please don't have a go on that front, each to their own opinion, I hope.

Anyway, living in highland Perthshire now, I travel the Pitlochry to Edinburgh route regularly, or at least I used to. I mostly drive now as the service, particularly in the summer, is nothing short of abject misery. Mostly 170s stuffed to the rafters with tourists and luggage, hot, noisy, buses-on-rails, it's an awful experience right now. Tourist numbers are massive just now but the current service is a complete embarrassment to Scotland. If I can't take the 0924 LNER HST to Ed, I drive instead.

The reason I searched t'internet and ended up here was that I wanted to find out where the mooted HSTs are! My questions have been answered but, notwithstanding the various arguments and opinions about this and that, the HSTs are DESPERATELY needed on the highland line right now. I'm biased, I know, but I think when they do come they really will transform things, not seen since they first came in way back when I was 8 years old in 1979. I'll certainly be returning to the rails when they eventually come in.

I hope you didn't read all 82 pages

Welcome and thanks for the interesting post. I live outwith Scotland, but drove through Glencoe a few days ago and it was certainly busy... I agree the 170s aren't a great welcome for tourists and hopefully the hst will be a step change for that.

 

[Stoney1979]

Thanks. Not read all of it, but most of it. It's quite refreshing, I've always been a closet trainspotter, or rail enthusiast.... Since reading this thread I've learned what a "shove duff" is, along with various other vernaculars The 47/7 plied through Stonehaven, me and my mate used to call them "Funkys".

It's an aside but I have been Airbnbing since Mar 2017, and am so right now. Scotland is stuffed with tourists again this year, as it was last summer. I've taken family and guests to Pitlochry in the last week and watched them battle their way onto the 3 car 170s, standing at least to Perth. If they're lucky they can dart into a seat in Perth, to be replaced by other standers. There's just not enough capacity. I'd bring in the slam door HSTs asap, we just need more seats - and spaces for bikes. As we speak, the day to day reality is a mess.

 

[D1009]

I am new to here, I've been lurking for a few weeks and been fascinated / frustrated by some of the debate.

I chose my first bedroom in Stonehaven in the mid 1970s because I could see the railway from it. I witnessed the disappearance of the Deltics to be replaced by the HST. One of the first railway journeys I took was in the late 70s from Stonehaven to Montrose on the new HST, to visit the new Fine Fare supermarket there! Changed days, but it was a big deal at the time.

I have a deep affection for the HST and was absolutely delighted and excited to hear some of these grand old ladies would see out their days plying the scenic routes across Scotland. To my mind, a fitting retirement for them having, arguably, saved British railways after the APT episode. There are very different views on this, I know, but that's not the point of this post so please don't have a go on that front, each to their own opinion, I hope.

Anyway, living in highland Perthshire now, I travel the Pitlochry to Edinburgh route regularly, or at least I used to. I mostly drive now as the service, particularly in the summer, is nothing short of abject misery. Mostly 170s stuffed to the rafters with tourists and luggage, hot, noisy, buses-on-rails, it's an awful experience right now. Tourist numbers are massive just now but the current service is a complete embarrassment to Scotland. If I can't take the 0924 LNER HST to Ed, I drive instead.

The reason I searched t'internet and ended up here was that I wanted to find out where the mooted HSTs are! My questions have been answered but, notwithstanding the various arguments and opinions about this and that, the HSTs are DESPERATELY needed on the highland line right now. I'm biased, I know, but I think when they do come they really will transform things, not seen since they first came in way back when I was 8 years old in 1979. I'll certainly be returning to the rails when they eventually come in.

Interesting point regarding driving, one of the main reasons Scotrail have gone for the HST option is to make journey times more competitive with driving along the dualled A9. As a coincidence the times should also be a lot better than the class 800 operated LNER service.

 

[Cowley]

I am new to here, I've been lurking for a few weeks and been fascinated / frustrated by some of the debate.

I chose my first bedroom in Stonehaven in the mid 1970s because I could see the railway from it. I witnessed the disappearance of the Deltics to be replaced by the HST. One of the first railway journeys I took was in the late 70s from Stonehaven to Montrose on the new HST, to visit the new Fine Fare supermarket there! Changed days, but it was a big deal at the time.

I have a deep affection for the HST and was absolutely delighted and excited to hear some of these grand old ladies would see out their days plying the scenic routes across Scotland. To my mind, a fitting retirement for them having, arguably, saved British railways after the APT episode. There are very different views on this, I know, but that's not the point of this post so please don't have a go on that front, each to their own opinion, I hope.

Anyway, living in highland Perthshire now, I travel the Pitlochry to Edinburgh route regularly, or at least I used to. I mostly drive now as the service, particularly in the summer, is nothing short of abject misery. Mostly 170s stuffed to the rafters with tourists and luggage, hot, noisy, buses-on-rails, it's an awful experience right now. Tourist numbers are massive just now but the current service is a complete embarrassment to Scotland. If I can't take the 0924 LNER HST to Ed, I drive instead.

The reason I searched t'internet and ended up here was that I wanted to find out where the mooted HSTs are! My questions have been answered but, notwithstanding the various arguments and opinions about this and that, the HSTs are DESPERATELY needed on the highland line right now. I'm biased, I know, but I think when they do come they really will transform things, not seen since they first came in way back when I was 8 years old in 1979. I'll certainly be returning to the rails when they eventually come in.

I can’t think of a better reason for picking a bedroom...
Welcome Stoney1979. Like you I’m following this thread with interest, and hopefully when it does finally happen it’ll make a decent difference up your way.

 

[Northhighland]

Coaches aren't ready yet

Nah? Really? So why park two power cars in Inverness?

 

[Northhighland]

I would say it's in the balance. If it goes smoothly from now, they'll be liked. If there's more delays or issues, the public will turn away from it. Bad publicity can kill a project. APT anyone?

Slam door HST’s would be a massive improvement on crowded 170’s. No brainer for anyone travelling north.

 

[jingsmonty]

This post sums it up. The HST will be a huge hit wit the public. Regular HML travellers like myself will be ecstatic with the change. I firmly predict they will increase passenger numbers significantly as the experience will be so much better.

Just need to see them in action.

Cheers!

 

[jingsmonty]

Thanks. Not read all of it, but most of it. It's quite refreshing, I've always been a closet trainspotter, or rail enthusiast.... Since reading this thread I've learned what a "shove duff" is, along with various other vernaculars The 47/7 plied through Stonehaven, me and my mate used to call them "Funkys".

It's an aside but I have been Airbnbing since Mar 2017, and am so right now. Scotland is stuffed with tourists again this year, as it was last summer. I've taken family and guests to Pitlochry in the last week and watched them battle their way onto the 3 car 170s, standing at least to Perth. If they're lucky they can dart into a seat in Perth, to be replaced by other standers. There's just not enough capacity. I'd bring in the slam door HSTs asap, we just need more seats - and spaces for bikes. As we speak, the day to day reality is a mess.

As a Driver who used to be a Conductor on the HML, I'd agree with you 100%...the service on the HML in the summer can often be abysmal!

 

[Pete_uk]

So, ScotRail are not getting MTU HSTs? I thought all fgw HSTs were MTU or are my wires crossed?

 

[najaB]

So, ScotRail are not getting MTU HSTs? I thought all fgw HSTs were MTU or are my wires crossed?

Either I have misunderstood, or the wires have got crossed a little bit. My understanding is that FGW power cars have MTU engines, but a mix of motor types.

 

[Tempest3K]

Either I have misunderstood, or the wires have got crossed a little bit. My understanding is that FGW power cars have MTU engines, but a mix of motor types.

Correct - Some powercars have GEC traction motors & some have Brush traction motors, all (except EMT examples with VP185's, or prototype 41001 which has original Valenta) have MTU engines.

 

[Rail Blues]

notwithstanding the various arguments and opinions about this and that, the HSTs are DESPERATELY needed on the highland line right now. I'm biased, I know, but I think when they do come they really will transform things,

I agree that there's a need for a better service and different rolling stock, whether HSTs are the answer remains to be seen. The decision has been made and I hope it works out, but I have several reservations.

Since reading this thread I've learned what a "shove duff" is, along with various other vernaculars

This kind of nerdy in-speak really grinds my gears, it is cliquey and juvenile, Push-pull 47s takes no more effort than typing out 'shove duff' or 'daddy yings' or whatever. It just serves as an impediment to discussion and understanding.

 

[Journeyman]

I agree that there's a need for a better service and different rolling stock, whether HSTs are the answer remains to be seen. The decision has been made and I hope it works out, but I have several reservations.

Wholeheartedly agree. There's a need for more seats, more luggage space and a better catering and first class offer, and while the HSTs will deliver these, I remain unconvinced that they were the best option. Given the obvious delays to the project, there's clearly a lot more problems with them than people were expecting. The first time an HST breaks down and causes havoc on one of the single track sections of the Highland Main Line, it'll be all over the press and Abellio will have a serious problem on their hands. Given that GWR's HSTs are far less reliable than any of the others (I've seen the official figures), it will only be a matter of time before it happens.

 

[jingsmonty]

Wholeheartedly agree. There's a need for more seats, more luggage space and a better catering and first class offer, and while the HSTs will deliver these, I remain unconvinced that they were the best option. Given the obvious delays to the project, there's clearly a lot more problems with them than people were expecting. The first time an HST breaks down and causes havoc on one of the single track sections of the Highland Main Line, it'll be all over the press and Abellio will have a serious problem on their hands. Given that GWR's HSTs are far less reliable than any of the others (I've seen the official figures), it will only be a matter of time before it happens.

I'm a huge supporter of the Scotrail HST project, but you make a very good point. There's already been a failure on a training train (burst air pipe in 43127) which caused chaos last Tuesday. Still, I think (given air pollution legislation, etc), that nothing new would have been available which would compare, performance-wise to a short formed HST. Certainly not a Hitachi 802 bi-mode! There's a lot of infrastructure work to do as well (such as shore supplies at stabling points, lengthening stabling roads, etc). Also. I'm sure the low leasing costs would have been a factor too...!

You are 100% correct that as soon as an HST 'lies down' on a single line section of the HML, the press will scream about ' old clapped out trains'! To be honest, most mechanical failures could be ' worked around', as we have 2 power cars (which is why I'm glad that Scotrail didn't go for a 1 Power car + DVT option). Tuesday was unfortunate, as it wasn't something that could be fixed this way!Understand it was a rare type of failure though...here's hoping.

 

[Wst71Pa2]

Which makes the lack of drawgear/coupling addition a bit short sighted