Alcohol bans

[greyman42]

TPE have employed this policy banning alcohol on trains towards Middlesbrough but not away from it for several years

York station has a alcohol ban from early evening onwards on a Saturday for anyone boarding trains.

 

[Skymonster]

The point I was really trying to make was what constitutes "reasonable notice" as mentioned in the National Rail bylaws. If I book a ticket on a service on which alcohol is banned, and I am not advised of that when I book the ticket, on what basis can the TOC claim reasonable notice was given and on what basis can the ban be enforced. I am under the impression that a contract is formed when payment is made for a product or service, and conditions cannot be applied retrospectively. So if I buy a ticket for a specific train and the TOC does not tell me there is an alcohol ban when I buy the ticket, on what legal basis can the ban be enforced?

 

[Esker-pades]

The point I was really trying to make was what constitutes "reasonable notice" as mentioned in the National Rail bylaws. If I book a ticket on a service on which alcohol is banned, and I am not advised of that when I book the ticket, on what basis can the TOC claim reasonable notice was given and on what basis can the ban be enforced. I am under the impression that a contract is formed when payment is made for a product or service, and conditions cannot be applied retrospectively. So if I buy a ticket for a specific train and the TOC does not tell me there is an alcohol ban when I buy the ticket, on what legal basis can the ban be enforced?

ScotRail (which has an alcohol ban from 21:00 to 10:00) has a page on its website. It is also announced on trains by the guard.

 

[yorksrob]

York station has a alcohol ban from early evening onwards on a Saturday for anyone boarding trains.

I'd assumed that drinking on the station away from a bar area was frowned upon anyway, regardless of the time.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The point I was really trying to make was what constitutes "reasonable notice" as mentioned in the National Rail bylaws. If I book a ticket on a service on which alcohol is banned, and I am not advised of that when I book the ticket, on what basis can the TOC claim reasonable notice was given and on what basis can the ban be enforced. I am under the impression that a contract is formed when payment is made for a product or service, and conditions cannot be applied retrospectively. So if I buy a ticket for a specific train and the TOC does not tell me there is an alcohol ban when I buy the ticket, on what legal basis can the ban be enforced?

I think the issue is this - if there were no Byelaw offence then I would entirely agree that they must inform you of the alcohol ban at the time of booking. It would be a case of them modifying the contract without your agreement - which could lead to you having potential civil (i.e. County Court) remedies, such as a fee-free refund if you decide you no longer want to travel as a result.

However, as it is, the Byelaw does exist, and the requirement for 'reasonable notice' to be given does not, in my view, mean that you must be advised of the alcohol restriction at the time of booking. As long as you have are informed in a way and at a point where it is practicable to comply with the alcohol restriction (e.g. with platform signs if no alcohol is permitted whatsoever, or with on-board announcements if consumption and open carry are prohibited), then I would see the requirement for 'reasonable notice' to be fulfilled, and hence it would not become an obstacle to a conviction.

Of course it rather unfortunate that, in the case of a retrospectively applied alcohol restriction, you could be criminally convicted for what is actually a civil breach of contract on behalf of the train company. Nevertheless that is sadly the way much of the legal basis of rail travel works - if you break the rules, it's a criminal offence, if they break the rules, it's a civil breach of contract.

 

[Llanigraham]

And just found this in another thread:
Railway Byelaw 12 :
"Safety instructions

(1) An Operator may issue reasonable instructions relating to safety on any part of the railway by means of a notice on or near that part of the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such notice.

(2) An authorised person may, in an emergency or in other circumstances in which he believes he should act in the interests of safety, issue instructions to any person on the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such instructions.

I suspect these could be used in this case.

 

[Roger100]

York station has a alcohol ban from early evening onwards on a Saturday for anyone boarding trains.

Grand Central run dry trains on Saturday evenings between York and Sunderland, although you may drink on the Kings Cross to York part of the journey. The main reason seems to be the hen parties, although other specific events may encounter an alcohol ban at other times. I was on such a train last month, when a large group of intoxicated racegoers boarded at York. Two extra staff also boarded the train - they walked up and down the train on the remaining journey to Sunderland, confiscating visible alcohol and pouring it down the sink. The process remained good-natured and I heard no complaints.

The hen parties seem the main problem. They get on the 6.45 am train at Sunderland, occupy the table seats and start their drinking. If they're sitting in your reserved seat it's tough luck. When they get off at York the seats and tables are often awash with vodka, lager or whatever. I've seen the 'mother hen' actually selling alcohol by the glass. They seem to be getting round the ban by having their parties on weekdays now, so I wouldn't be surprised if more bans result.

Personally I can manage to travel between York and Sunderland without having to drink alcohol, and wouldn't oppose more dry trains, especially on Saturday mornings.

 

[bionic]

How enforceable is it? On TFL you see people drinking all the time. I expect as long as they are behaving themselves most staff "wouldn't see it". Of course if they are causing a nuisance then the bylaw can be enforced and police be called if necessary. I certainly can't imagine a situation where the guard is going to be rummaging through everyone's luggage looking for a sealed bottle of wine etc.

Would the ban apply to someone drinking for obe stop on the 1902 Crewe to Alsager as this train arrives into Northampton at 2107 but the drinker wouldn't be going within miles of Northampton and wouldn't have a clue what time the train arrived there. And if it was going via Weedon they could presumably definitely drink between Crewe and Alsager with no problems!

 

[bearhugger]

I noticed when I went to Whitby recently that the final departure to Middlesbrough on a Saturday is designated dry, but it isn't on Mondays to Fridays.

Indeed, on Friday evenings during the summer a Music and Ale train is run and promoted by the Esk Valley Railway Development Company (http://eskvalleyrailway.co.uk/outings/index.php/esk-valley-music-and-ale-train/). Seems odd that beer is sold on the train one evening then banned 24 hours later!

 

[380101]

I've seen plenty of people drinking alcohol on Scotrail during the prescribed times - the staff on board don't appear to care.

Its not so much they dont care but more a case they really dont have any power to enforce the bylaw. No point in putting themselves in potentially confrontational situations over a few cans of beer or bottle of wine when the gateline staff and BTP happily let extremely drunk people through the barriers just to get them out the stations.

 

[pt_mad]

Does this sort of ban help staff in refusing intoxicated customers travel due to being unfit through alcohol? Perhaps it does? Or perhaps it's designed to send out a message that alcohol isn't wanted on these trains in the hope people won't expect to be allowed to board if they are paraletic?

I would hope passengers wouldn't complain about this policy as it's as much about trying to protect their safety as much as the safety of the staff. After all, the staff are able to find safety in the rear cab if anything becomes violent. Fellow passengers however, are exposed and can't leave the passenger compartment until the next station and if a situation becomes violent that can be a very long ten minutes.

Yes it is a case of a tiny few spoiling it for the vast majority, but hey ho that's how it goes and it's no different from some nightclubs where a few ignorant louts looking for trouble or to grope the opposite sex spoil it for others. Ultimately the TOC is left with little other option if anti social behaviour is rife on a particular route. And it's no good sober passengers being frightened to travel due to bad experiences which hopefully this will help to address somewhat.

 

[yorksrob]

I disagree with rules and regulations being used to "send out messages" as intoned in the above post. Rules and regulations should only be imposed where they are known to have a practical impact.

 

[farleigh]

I disagree with rules and regulations being used to "send out messages" as intoned in the above post. Rules and regulations should only be imposed where they are known to have a practical impact.

Totally agree with this.

 

[rosschap]

Anyone know how alcohol bans are imposed on dry trains?

Drinking has been banned on TfL for years but as a Night tube driver I can safely tell you that it most certainly is unenforceable with our current staffing levels. Technically I could request BTP attendance whenever I notice somebody drinking but this would cause havoc to the service during the night, where most passengers are intoxicated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I disagree with rules and regulations being used to "send out messages" as intoned in the above post. Rules and regulations should only be imposed where they are known to have a practical impact.

Agreed, and it won't have any practical impact on the late evening trains out of Euston because almost nobody actually drinks on them.

 

[boxy321]

I must admit that the poor design of train bins' lid flaps are part of this issue. Only the new bins on the 350/3s seem to be sensibly sized and easy to use.

I've never seen a bin on a 172 that wasn't so full you couldn't shut the lid.

 

[cuccir]

I suppose the big question is whether alcohol bans reduce anti-social behaviour, staff abuse (physical or verbal), damage to trains, and any subsequent delays to services. If they do then at least they have merit - is there any non-anecdotal evidence for this?

IMO bans on services of under 90 minutes or so serve relatively little purpose: it's not really enough time for people to get drunk enough to cause problems* unless they were already quite drunk before boarding. Where I can see real value is on some of the longer distance services mentioned, either where tipsy people returning home get more drunk, or where people are using the time on the train to get smashed before arriving at a party/holiday destination.

Ideally I think the law would prohibit only the consumption of alcohol or the carrying of opened bottles/cans. In practice, I can see how this would make things very difficult for staff to enforce and I guess we can just hope that they use common sense in implementing it.

* I mean yes - you could down a bottle of vodka or whatever. But realistically the number of people prepared to do that is very small in comparison to the number of people who might drink a bottle of wine or several beers over a 2 to 3 hour journey

 

[NSE]

A fairly common game for us is to board our Clapham Junction train at Purley, open a bottle of wine each and have it finished by the time we leave at Clapham. The prize for the winner? More drink. The forfeit for the loser? More drink. We’re a consistent bunch I grant you.

But jokes aside, it is the small minority that cause problems and I support the bans in the those cases. Sure we drink, as mentioned above, but all our rubbish goes, we don’t sing and shout, nor do we do anything else. If Southern banned booze, we’d just find somewhere else to have a novelty game upon arrival in Clapham.

 

[Parallel]

The 20.21 Saturdays only Weymouth - Bristol Temple Meads is a dry train, and with good reason too, so I’ve heard...

 

[bussnapperwm]

Personally I'm of the opinion that trains that call within 15 miles of Cheltenham during the big racing week in March should be declared dry.

Did the 09something off Worcester once during ladies day a few years ago and half of the passengers were as drunk as newts.

Same should apply to trains passing within 5 miles of New Street/Moor Street, especially during football matches at one of the 3 Birmingham grounds. Or for something more radical, all trains that start, finish or pass through any station in the TfWM area should be completely dry (including no alcohol purchases on board)

 

[matt_world2004]

I saw someone get their details taken on a london bus for drinking and theybwere beong discrete so it does happen.

 

[Skymonster]

However, as it is, the Byelaw does exist, and the requirement for 'reasonable notice' to be given does not, in my view, mean that you must be advised of the alcohol restriction at the time of booking. As long as you have are informed in a way and at a point where it is practicable to comply with the alcohol restriction (e.g. with platform signs if no alcohol is permitted whatsoever, or with on-board announcements if consumption and open carry are prohibited), then I would see the requirement for 'reasonable notice' to be fulfilled, and hence it would not become an obstacle to a conviction.

The reality is I'm not too bothered about a lack of notice in the context of boarding a train with a can or bottle intended to be consumed en route - I accept that it may be reasonable in those situations. What I am more bothered about is the scenario where I come back from holiday with some duty free or am carrying alcohol as a gift for someone else (in both cases with no intention of opening or consuming it on the train). I have done this on a number of occasions in the past. In those circumstances, having booked a train and not having been given notice of the ban at booking time, I would regard any attempt to prevent me carrying alcohol as totally unreasonable.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The reality is I'm not too bothered about a lack of notice in the context of boarding a train with a can or bottle intended to be consumed en route - I accept that it may be reasonable in those situations. What I am more bothered about is the scenario where I come back from holiday with some duty free or am carrying alcohol as a gift for someone else (in both cases with no intention of opening or consuming it on the train). I have done this on a number of occasions in the past. In those circumstances, having booked a train and not having been given notice of the ban at booking time, I would regard any attempt to prevent me carrying alcohol as totally unreasonable.

I would entirely agree that it would be entirely unreasonable, in both a moral and a civil law context - indeed, it could well constitute an actionable breach of contract. Nevertheless, you could be convicted for failing to comply with the alcohol ban if you brought the alcohol on board, having been given reasonable notice (e.g. a sign on the platform) that it was banned.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Personally I'm of the opinion that trains that call within 15 miles of Cheltenham during the big racing week in March should be declared dry.

Did the 09something off Worcester once during ladies day a few years ago and half of the passengers were as drunk as newts.

Same should apply to trains passing within 5 miles of New Street/Moor Street, especially during football matches at one of the 3 Birmingham grounds. Or for something more radical, all trains that start, finish or pass through any station in the TfWM area should be completely dry (including no alcohol purchases on board)

I bet you’re fun at parties!
Remember that people who have a drink on trains have A - more than likely paid for their ticket the same as you have and B - aren’t transgressing some great moral line by enjoying themselves.
Sometimes controls need to exist for reasons of the safety of the railway, but other than that, whatever happened to a bit of live and let live?

 

[DarloRich]

Sometimes controls need to exist for reasons of the safety of the railway, but other than that, whatever happened to a bit of live and let live?

There is a strong puritanical streak on this board.

The reality is I'm not too bothered about a lack of notice in the context of boarding a train with a can or bottle intended to be consumed en route - I accept that it may be reasonable in those situations. What I am more bothered about is the scenario where I come back from holiday with some duty free or am carrying alcohol as a gift for someone else (in both cases with no intention of opening or consuming it on the train). I have done this on a number of occasions in the past. In those circumstances, having booked a train and not having been given notice of the ban at booking time, I would regard any attempt to prevent me carrying alcohol as totally unreasonable.

I would entirely agree that it would be entirely unreasonable, in both a moral and a civil law context - indeed, it could well constitute an actionable breach of contract. Nevertheless, you could be convicted for failing to comply with the alcohol ban if you brought the alcohol on board, having been given reasonable notice (e.g. a sign on the platform) that it was banned.

For the 9 millionth time: If you have a sealed bottle in your bag no one is going to care. No one is going to ask you to tip it away. No one is going to arrest you or chuck you off the train for carrying a sealed bottle in your baggage. You wont be searched. Your bags wont be searched. This comes up every time a thread of this nature appears. It is tiresome.

 

[adrock1976]

Personally I'm of the opinion that trains that call within 15 miles of Cheltenham during the big racing week in March should be declared dry.

Did the 09something off Worcester once during ladies day a few years ago and half of the passengers were as drunk as newts.

Same should apply to trains passing within 5 miles of New Street/Moor Street, especially during football matches at one of the 3 Birmingham grounds. Or for something more radical, all trains that start, finish or pass through any station in the TfWM area should be completely dry (including no alcohol purchases on board)

Could you tell me which three Birmingham grounds are being referred to please?

I am only aware of 2: Villa Park (Aston Villa) and St Andrews (the dirty Bluenoses). As a side note, I am originally from the West Midlands.

Also good luck with dry trains passing through the PTE area. What would happen if somebody who is already onboard a Manchester - Bournemouth or Bristol, or a Glasgow/Edinburgh - London Euston train if already purchased alcohol onboard before the train reaches Wolverhampton, Coventry, or passing through Castle Bromwich or Longbridge?

 

[adrock1976]

If there is one day of the year where I would like to have dry trains all day would be the local services in Glasgow and the West of Scotland on the Saturday before the 12 July.

That particular day is when the Orange Order have their big march and parade, which attracts a lot of undesirables who have been well and truly tanked up on alcohol.

 

[Anvil1984]

There is a strong puritanical streak on this board.





For the 9 millionth time: If you have a sealed bottle in your bag no one is going to care. No one is going to ask you to tip it away. No one is going to arrest you or chuck you off the train for carrying a sealed bottle in your baggage. You wont be searched. Your bags wont be searched. This comes up every time a thread of this nature appears. It is tiresome.

People have been refused travel on the Newcastle to Carlisle dry trains for exactly that sadly. The Travel Safe Officers di check bags

 

[farleigh]

What's wrong with having a few pints on the train anyway?

If somebody is rowdy they should be asked to leave.

Alcohol is not the problem.

Some peoples behaviour is a problem

 

[greyman42]

People have been refused travel on the Newcastle to Carlisle dry trains for exactly that sadly. The Travel Safe Officers di check bags

This is true and the same has happened on trains departing Kings Cross for Newcastle after Newcastle United have been playing in London.