RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[Carlisle]

TBH that may not be all that bad a plan.

Staffed ticket offices on Merseyrail provide relatively little benefit - they don't do anything a TVM doesn't - at most stations they aren't even anywhere near the platform to provide a security benefit. If said TVMs came with ToD I think people would be very happy with that solution generally.

If you added touch in and out contactless for local journeys that would complete a more than acceptable package in my eyes.

If they want to avoid more hassle, they could follow a similar path to the plan for guards - just stop recruiting ticket office staff and close ticket offices progressively as the staff retire or leave.

You could even have the OBSs able to sell tickets on board at some kind of supplement (which would feel much friendlier than the whole zero-tolerance penalty fares thing). A way to do this legally would be to create a slightly discounted Anytime day ticket to go with the off peak ones and sell only undiscounted Anytime Day Singles on board (I don't believe there is any obligation to sell Anytime Day Returns on board, and at £5.85 a pop that makes a return from Aughton Park to Liverpool cost a hefty £11.70 against the Anytime Day Return of £6.15).

Yes I’m sure a way could be found, possibly at the expense of increasing division, as Oxted Signaller suggested recently, the RMT lately only appear truly dedicated to defending guards, whilst accepting that station/ clerical staff etc can and will be dispensed with or outsourced in certain situations. If that plan is the expert opinion of the majority of those running the industry then so be it ,but let’s not end up with a lousy fudge conceived almost soley to meet the objective of preventing further industrial action.

 

[northwichcat]

Staffed ticket offices on Merseyrail provide relatively little benefit - they don't do anything a TVM doesn't

They do have a benefit for anyone travelling beyond the end of the Merseyrail network. At off-peak times if you're making a return journey it's quite often cheaper to buy a Day Saver and then an off-peak return between the last Merseyrail station and the station you're travelling to. Merseyrail TVMs don't have TOD and I'm not sure if they allow you to buy a ticket from another station.

 

[stuart100100]

TBH that may not be all that bad a plan.

Staffed ticket offices on Merseyrail provide relatively little benefit - they don't do anything a TVM doesn't - at most stations they aren't even anywhere near the platform to provide a security benefit. If said TVMs came with ToD I think people would be very happy with that solution generally.

How would TRIO applications and renewals work. There's been talk of adding them to Walrus but nothing has come of it so far

 

[Bletchleyite]

They do have a benefit for anyone travelling beyond the end of the Merseyrail network. At off-peak times if you're making a return journey it's quite often cheaper to buy a Day Saver and then an off-peak return between the last Merseyrail station and the station you're travelling to. Merseyrail TVMs don't have TOD and I'm not sure if they allow you to buy a ticket from another station.

Then solve that rather than having staff to deal with a niche requirement. Or just rebook at the change station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How would TRIO applications and renewals work. There's been talk of adding them to Walrus but nothing has come of it so far

Good question. There are a number of options they could look at - online (delivered by post) and refunding an Anytime Day Single purchased to get the passenger to central Liverpool to obtain it would be two possibilities.

 

[northwichcat]

Then solve that rather than having staff to deal with a niche requirement. Or just rebook at the change station.

Do you mean withdraw the discounted Merseyside ticket or introduce a new national ticket scheme? I'm not sure cross border off-peak journeys are that much of a niche market.

I fail to see how making the customer re-book is better and that relies on stations like Bidston keeping their ticket offices and Ellesmere Port getting a full time ticket office if it ever gets a regular service to Helsby and beyond. While it would not be convenient to do that at Chester or Southport on a busy day - getting through the ticket barriers takes long enough, never mind going through them twice and buying a ticket!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you mean withdraw the discounted Merseyside ticket or introduce a new national ticket scheme? I'm not sure cross border off-peak journeys are that much of a niche market.

A TVM can sell you a through ticket to anywhere on the network and can also deliver you a ToD if implemented (as I believe they should). I always purchase my walk-up tickets from the TVM at Bletchley/MKC regardless of destination.

Splitting tickets to save money is not something that the railway should spend money on enabling. If you wish to split, you put yourself out to split.

 

[M28361M]

How would TRIO applications and renewals work. There's been talk of adding them to Walrus but nothing has come of it so far

I believe the current reason for no Trio/Railpass on Walrus (and also why Saveaways can only be sold for today or tomorrow) is that most stations have no smartcard validators to activate tickets on first use. This will presumably be solved at some point and allow Trio and Railpass to be moved onto Walrus.

It should then be simply a matter of installing new ticket machines with ITSO capability. Then start selling tickets online, to take transactions away from the station altogether.

For what it's worth, I'm not in favour of destaffing stations totally, but once Walrus is rolled out fully, I think a London Overground-style solution would be suitable. So install ToD-capable ticket machines at every station which can also sell walkup tickets and smartcard topups, and have a member of staff on hand - in the public area, not behind a ticket office window - to provide assistance and a reassuring presence.

However this wouldn't help with the requirement to cut staffing costs to fund the new trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For what it's worth, I'm not in favour of destaffing stations totally, but once Walrus is rolled out fully, I think a London Overground-style solution would be suitable. So install ToD-capable ticket machines at every station which can also sell walkup tickets and smartcard topups, and have a member of staff on hand - in the public area, not behind a ticket office window - to provide assistance and a reassuring presence.

There is really no justification to have a member of staff at the likes of Aughton Park at all. So there are some you definitely could cut.

 

[northwichcat]

A TVM can sell you a through ticket to anywhere on the network and can also deliver you a ToD if implemented (as I believe they should). I always purchase my walk-up tickets from the TVM at Bletchley/MKC regardless of destination.

First part if incorrect. There are plenty of examples of routes where you cannot buy a through fare and even when there is a through fare you can find there's an Anytime Day Return but no Off-Peak Day Return.

There are also cases where you can't buy a ticket from a TVM but can from a ticket office - a through ticket to a stop on the Metrolink network often throws up such a scenario.

Splitting tickets to save money is not something that the railway should spend money on enabling. If you wish to split, you put yourself out to split.

You could argue in some cases it's not really splitting in the normal sense. A Merseyside ticket might cover you for a bus journey prior to getting to the station and then when you get to the station you've already got a ticket valid for part of your journey and just need a ticket for the remaining part, similar to if you hold a season ticket but aren't making your usual journey meaning you need to buy an additional ticket as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

First part if incorrect. There are plenty of examples of routes where you cannot buy a through fare and even when there is a through fare you can find there's an Anytime Day Return but no Off-Peak Day Return.

You're getting onto reductio ad absurdem there. That is no more justification for a ticket office at Aughton Park than it is for one at any Metrolink stop.

If you want to play silly beggars with splits, purchase online and collect. If Merseyrail were to close ticket offices (stopping the purchase of advance purchase tickets locally) I believe they should be required to support ToD as a replacement - a superior option for most people in 2018.

There are also cases where you can't buy a ticket from a TVM but can from a ticket office - a through ticket to a stop on the Metrolink network often throws up such a scenario.

Just rebook at the tram TVM, there are no discounts on those anyway I believe, they are just a ticket to Manchester Stns plus the tram add-on.

You could argue in some cases it's not really splitting in the normal sense. A Merseyside ticket might cover you for a bus journey prior to getting to the station and then when you get to the station you've already got a ticket valid for part of your journey and just need a ticket for the remaining part, similar to if you hold a season ticket but aren't making your usual journey meaning you need to buy an additional ticket as well.

Then buy one from the TVM at the change point. Or buy online and collect. Or ask the guard if he'll sell you one if the change point is Ormskirk or Kirkby, whether he's meant to or not I'm sure he will if you ask before you board. Or the TVMs could be set up to allow remote issue - all of WMT's (at least south WCML) ones are.

 

[northwichcat]

If you want to play silly beggars with splits, purchase online and collect. If Merseyrail were to close ticket offices (stopping the purchase of advance purchase tickets locally) I believe they should be required to support ToD as a replacement - a superior option for most people in 2018.

Tickets like the Merseyside Day Ranger and the GM and Derbyshire Wayfarers can't be purchased online. It's hardly "playing silly beggars with splits" to make use of tickets which PTEs advertise and in the case of the Merseyside Day Return, there are actually warnings on some TVMs telling passengers that instead of buying a return to their destination they might want to buy a Merseyside Day Ranger.

I notice a few posts ago you were saying the solution was to sort out ticket anomalies so the ticket office staff could be removed and when I asked you which would be you preferred option out of withdrawing the discounted Merseyside tickets or a new national scheme, you started claiming it's not the TOC's problem. If you're going to make an argument at least be consistent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What do you mean by the Merseyside Day Ranger? Do you mean the Merseyrail Electrics only day ticket which isn't called that (I believe it's called a Day Saver?)

Just rebook at the change station TVM. The only stations you would be changing onto one are also stations where you would be changing trains.

 

[Loop & Link]

Got to love the reaction on here, what should be good news in a long dispute, instead the opinion on here is, well if we can’t get rid of guards, we’ll just have to get rid of other staff instead, staff a lot of passengers value.

Let the TOC & Union worry about that.

If it did go down the road of ticket office closure, it would be a shame to see all stations destaffed.

Instead, have staff on hand that can provide assistance and information (during disruption too) but not necessarily selling tickets.

 

[northwichcat]

Got to love the reaction on here, what should be good news in a long dispute, instead the opinion on here is, well if we can’t get rid of guards, we’ll just have to get rid of other staff instead, staff a lot of passengers value.

Let the TOC & Union worry about that.

If it did go down the road of ticket office closure, it would be a shame to see all stations destaffed.

Instead, have staff on hand that can provide assistance and information (during disruption too) but not necessarily selling tickets.

The problem was the books don't balance with guards and new trains, so what are the alternatives? Fewer new trains? Fewer services? Staff removed from stations? Much higher fares? Higher council tax for those living in Merseyside? Lower pay for staff? I don't see how it can be seen as good news, unless we know what compromise is being made to allow the on board staff to remain. Unless it's fewer staff or lower pay for staff, it's definitely something the public should be consulted on.

 

[Kite159]

As for the Merseyrail issue, good news that there is light at the end of the tunnel, although it sounds like the RMT have thrown the future of some station staff down the drain

 

[robertclark125]

All Merseyside stations are supposed to be staffed for all trains, but when I visited last year, Hunts Cross was not manned one evening, at about 19:00, and one Thursday morning and afternoon, Bootle New Strand was unstaffed..

 

[B&I]

Of course, the question no-one ever asks is, why are Merseytravel having to fund the new trains with.no apparent central assistance in the first place ?

 

[Elecman]

Are the ticket office staff TSSA by perchance

 

[danbarnstall]

Keep an eye on Stadler and RMT relations. Plenty of Merseyrail staff got TUPED last year. Negotiations begin this month about their new terms. My brother in law is a fitter there and from what I gather things could get ugly soon.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Of course, the question no-one ever asks is, why are Merseytravel having to fund the new trains with.no apparent central assistance in the first place ?

I thought that it was made clear at the time of the order that it was a sensible business model for a longer term 'concession' with unique/unfungible trains to bypass the rolling stock leasing companies.

 

[Carlisle]

Keep an eye on Stadler and RMT relations. Plenty of Merseyrail staff got TUPED last year. Negotiations begin this month about their new terms. My brother in law is a fitter there and from what I gather things could get ugly soon.

I can’t recall any prolonged dispute in recent times when depot staff have been TUPED across to the various manufacturers (I’ve known a few fitters over the years) so I’d think it unlikely this would ultimately turn out to be much different

 

[danbarnstall]

I can’t recall any prolonged dispute in recent times when depot staff have been TUPED across to the various manufacturers (I’ve known a few fitters over the years) so I’d think it unlikely this would ultimately turn out to be much different

I can only go off what my brother in law says. He’s under the impression the Stadler Tuped workforce will be cut around 100. That is inclusive of all grades not just fitters.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I can only go off what my brother in law says. He’s under the impression the Stadler Tuped workforce will be cut around 100. That is inclusive of all grades not just fitters.

Presumably the new trains will generate a different type and volume of inspection and maintenance work, require different skills, etc. Bound to be some changes.

 

[Andrew32]

Post deleted

 

[6Gman]

What do you mean by the Merseyside Day Ranger? Do you mean the Merseyrail Electrics only day ticket which isn't called that (I believe it's called a Day Saver?)

Just rebook at the change station TVM. The only stations you would be changing onto one are also stations where you would be changing trains.

Not all tickets can be obtained at TVMs.

For example, staff discounted tickets.

 

[6Gman]

The problem was the books don't balance with guards and new trains, so what are the alternatives? Fewer new trains? Fewer services? Staff removed from stations? Much higher fares? Higher council tax for those living in Merseyside? Lower pay for staff? I don't see how it can be seen as good news, unless we know what compromise is being made to allow the on board staff to remain. Unless it's fewer staff or lower pay for staff, it's definitely something the public should be consulted on.

Aren't fares on Merseyrail among the lowest anywhere on the rail network?

 

[northwichcat]

Aren't fares on Merseyrail among the lowest anywhere on the rail network?

They have a cheap off-peak day ticket for Merseyrail services only but through fares to Merseyrail stations from outside Merseyside can be very expensive.

 

[Kite159]

Aren't fares on Merseyrail among the lowest anywhere on the rail network?

Pretty much

£5.30 for an all-area saveaway which covers the entire Merseytravel network

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All Merseyside stations are supposed to be staffed for all trains, but when I visited last year, Hunts Cross was not manned one evening, at about 19:00, and one Thursday morning and afternoon, Bootle New Strand was unstaffed..

I don't quite know what you mean by Merseyside, but Bache station is unstaffed and is one of the few with a TVM.
I think Capenhurst is the same.
Both in Cheshire of course.