RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[pemma]

According to ITV Granada News the RMT meet in Liverpool today over Merseyrail DOO plans and are expected to ballot for industrial action later in the week.

The Merseyrail rep who appeared on camera seems to fit in with the RMT stereotype as he said it was unbelievable that Merseyrail are proposing DOO when none of the RMT members support it.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

According to ITV Granada News the RMT meet in Liverpool today over Merseyrail DOO plans and are expected to ballot for industrial action later in the week.

The Merseyrail rep who appeared on camera seems to fit in with the RMT stereotype as he said it was unbelievable that Merseyrail are proposing DOO when none of the RMT members support it.

What did you expect him to say "It's fantastic news that our members might lose their jobs and we are all for it"

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Merseyrail is a bit of an enigma.

I know from a chat I had with a very high up manager of Merseyrail some years ago that they have gone full circle on what they preached at that time. I'm not saying any more about this though due to confidentiality. However, much has happened on Merseyrail since then. One idiot getting five years for negligence didn't help.

Chaos will reign on Merseyside for sure. This is going to make Southernrail look like a stroll in the park, but I doubt anything will change, and the fact that it will only hurt the scousers won't trouble Grayling too much. It might damage Labour though with them having control of the Merseyside PTE. It is going to make the Labour party look very bad in an area they need to keep their support high. Corbyn's words of supporting the strikers when a Labour controlled PTE is doing the opposite. Oh dear.

 

[Elecman]

Merseyrail won't gave any say/ choice as to wether to operate the new stock as DOO as the rolling stock is being purchased and will be leased to them by the Franchisor Merseytravel

 

[Juniper Driver]

"RMT sterotype".:roll:

 

[AlterEgo]

"RMT sterotype".:roll:

Is it all about "health and safety b******s" which you feel "tied down by"?

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Merseyrail won't gave any say/ choice as to wether to operate the new stock as DOO as the rolling stock is being purchased and will be leased to them by the Franchisor Merseytravel

Going to be very interesting to see how the Labour members of 'Merseytravel' spin this one out. It's at odds with their great leader. I hope they have their tin hats at the ready.

 

[185]

"RMT sterotype".:roll:

Well, the "hail Che Guevara!" and the Jeremy Corbyn flat cap & beard did it for me.

 

[pemma]

What did you expect him to say "It's fantastic news that our members might lose their jobs and we are all for it"

No but stating they shouldn't do it because none of our members support it is as a comment as stupid as you shouldn't kill animals because vegetarians don't support it. Until they make some decent arguments the non-rail staff population think they're a comedy act not a group people pay to help protect workers rights.

 

[Merseysider]

If we do end up with DOO what are the chances of the guards all staying on and becoming commercial, rather than operating the doors?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does it really matter to the RMT if any TOC that is not yet up for franchise renewal should not be affected by any "first strike" (pun) pre-emptive ballots for strike action.....or is this just the impression that they hope to create to strike fear and travel uncertainty into the hearts of the "collateral damage" who rely on train services to go to work?

Perhaps some aid to those RMT affected by any strike action could be helped in their cause to lessen any financial hardship by the RMT being compelled to pay full shift financial compensation, as solidarity with their union members, whom they are supposed to act for.

 

[74A]

If we do end up with DOO what are the chances of the guards all staying on and becoming commercial, rather than operating the doors?

Zero.

 

[AlterEgo]

If we do end up with DOO what are the chances of the guards all staying on and becoming commercial, rather than operating the doors?

None.

In any case, a commercial guard who isn't safety critical is called a ticket examiner and is paid much less.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

No but stating they shouldn't do it because none of our members support it is as a comment as stupid as you shouldn't kill animals because vegetarians don't support it. Until they make some decent arguments the non-rail staff population think they're a comedy act not a group people pay to help protect workers rights.

Agreed

 

[Holly]

Merseyrail won't gave any say/ choice as to wether to operate the new stock as DOO as the rolling stock is being purchased and will be leased to them by the Franchisor Merseytravel

I don't see that.
Guards have safety duties above and beyond operating doors. Duties that are not tied to any particular rolling stock's features and capabilities.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

If we do end up with DOO what are the chances of the guards all staying on and becoming commercial, rather than operating the doors?

This is the general plan, Merseytravel do not want redundancies. There will be no pay cuts, but the contract and job description will change.

 

[Holly]

This is the general plan, Merseytravel do not want redundancies. There will be no pay cuts, but the contract and job description will change.

No need for any dispute then. As long as the changes to the contract and job description are limited to additional duties for the guards then an agreement will be reachable.
After all, guards do not operate doors on slam door HST stock. No reason why driver operated doors should be viewed as any different.

 

[sheff1]

No but stating they shouldn't do it because none of our members support it is as a comment as stupid as you shouldn't kill animals because vegetarians don't support it. Until they make some decent arguments the non-rail staff population think they're a comedy act not a group people pay to help protect workers rights.

Changes to contractual terms and conditions are subject to negotiation between an employer and the relevant unions. I would like to know what contractual arrangements exist between vegetarians and people who are employed to kill animals.

I am a member of the "non-rail staff population" and do not think the RMT are a comedy act ..... certain TOC's senior management however.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

I don't see that.
Guards have safety duties above and beyond operating doors. Duties that are not tied to any particular rolling stock's features and capabilities.

Although what you say is quite true, you have to remember the whole driving force is to save money in the long term. It will go like this.

1) By removing the safety critical role, you gain flexibility. No longer is twelve hours between shifts needed. No longer is route knowledge required. You have created flexibility at a stroke.

2) Natural wastage takes place no matter what. Merseytravel will not support redundancies. Merseytravel is run largely by Labour members, can you imagine the row. It is easier, and cheaper, to just let the natural wastage take place, and it will.

3) This is not a quick fix for savings. It will cost in the short term, but when all the guards have gone in say twenty years, then they will reap the benefits. It is a long term project by the government. Will it lead to a safer railway? That is not part of the thinking.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

No need for any dispute then. As long as the changes to the contract and job description are limited to additional duties for the guards then an agreement will be reachable.
After all, guards do not operate doors on slam door HST stock. No reason why driver operated doors should be viewed as any different.

My last reply applies here.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am a member of the "non-rail staff population" and do not think the RMT are a comedy act ..... certain TOC's senior management however.

Blessed be the RMT for they shall be seen as committing no wrong. It is harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for any member of a TOC senior management to enter the hallowed halls of Unity House and prostrate themselves before the sacred hot iron that signifies the time when RMT strike action should be balloted for.

Here endeth the lesson for today.

 

[sheff1]

Blessed be the RMT for they shall be seen as committing no wrong. It is harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for any member of a TOC senior management to enter the hallowed halls of Unity House and prostrate themselves before the sacred hot iron that signifies the time when RMT strike action should be balloted for.

Here endeth the lesson for today.

As you have quoted my post I assume the "lesson" is directed at me. Unfortunately, as I do not have the first idea what you are talking about, the "lesson" has not taught me anything.

 

[jopsuk]

RMT, of course, is not a Labour affiliated union.

Anyway, for Liverpool:
Garston and Halewood: 69.%
Liverpool Riverside: 67.4%
Liverpool Walton: 81.3% (a by-election in the summer likely after Steve Rotherham walks the Mayoral election)
Liverpool Wavertree 69.3%
Liverpool West Derby 75.2%

Of 90 councillors on the City Council, 80 are Labour
Knowsley it's 43/45
Sefton 42/66
St Helens 42/48
Wirral 38/66

Labour can do what they want in respect of this dispute, either supporting or against the union, and the hit to their reputation either way will do them negligible local damage. Though presumably the Liverpool City Region mayor (steve Rotherham, unless something really weird happens) will have some level of control over Merseyrail?

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Changes to contractual terms and conditions are subject to negotiation between an employer and the relevant unions. I would like to know what contractual arrangements exist between vegetarians and people who are employed to kill animals.

I am a member of the "non-rail staff population" and do not think the RMT are a comedy act ..... certain TOC's senior management however.

As a member of the RMT, this is my view.

I do not overly care about the safety critical angle. It is of no real concern of mine if they take the responsibility for passengers being dragged along a platform from me, and hand it to the driver. To be honest, the state of some of them on a Saturday night, I could easily welcome that change.
But this point of view is never taken up by the RMT. I would be far happier if my union started talking about making sure my pension right were protected than worrying about the driver operating the doors.

Is that a selfish point of view? Perhaps, but I pay the RMT to look after me, not passengers who don't give a fig about railway safety or me. All they want is a train that runs, so give them one and look after your members benefits.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

RMT, of course, is not a Labour affiliated union.

Anyway, for Liverpool:
Garston and Halewood: 69.%
Liverpool Riverside: 67.4%
Liverpool Walton: 81.3% (a by-election in the summer likely after Steve Rotherham walks the Mayoral election)
Liverpool Wavertree 69.3%
Liverpool West Derby 75.2%

Of 90 councillors on the City Council, 80 are Labour
Knowsley it's 43/45
Sefton 42/66
St Helens 42/48
Wirral 38/66

Labour can do what they want in respect of this dispute, either supporting or against the union, and the hit to their reputation either way will do them negligible local damage. Though presumably the Liverpool City Region mayor (steve Rotherham, unless something really weird happens) will have some level of control over Merseyrail?

Yes, a pig in a red rosette would win in a Liverpool ward. But at a time when Corbyn is dragging 20% in the UK, it's wouldn't be good for him would it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As you have quoted my post I assume the "lesson" is directed at me. Unfortunately, as I do not have the first idea what you are talking about, the "lesson" has not taught me anything.

Why on earth do you labour under that assumption that I have quoted your posting. Do I sense a touch of a sore point on your behalf?

All my posting was just one of my usual beatitudes that could be applied to the RMT on the many threads in which they feature. However, if you want one of the eight official beatitudes:-
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be satisfied
Matthew 5:3-10.

 

[313103]

As a member of the RMT, this is my view.

I do not overly care about the safety critical angle. It is of no real concern of mine if they take the responsibility for passengers being dragged along a platform from me, and hand it to the driver. To be honest, the state of some of them on a Saturday night, I could easily welcome that change.
But this point of view is never taken up by the RMT. I would be far happier if my union started talking about making sure my pension right were protected than worrying about the driver operating the doors.

Is that a selfish point of view? Perhaps, but I pay the RMT to look after me, not passengers who don't give a fig about railway safety or me. All they want is a train that runs, so give them one and look after your members benefits.

Well how is your pension being looked after if you are unemployed because the union failed to save your job?

 

[Chester1]

Yes, a pig in a red rosette would win in a Liverpool ward. But at a time when Corbyn is dragging 20% in the UK, it's wouldn't be good for him would it.

Liverpool, Knowsley and St Helens will always stay Labour. Wirral spends a significant amount of time with no party having a majority, it was nearly an exact 3 way split between the Labour, Lib Dems and Tories until the coalition nearly wiped out the Lib Dems. It was briefly run by a Tory minority as recently as 2012-13 I think. The local Tories will back national government policy on this issue though. The Lib Dems are a long way from recovery in Sefton and even if they took control by 2020 and opposed DOO they would be out voted 4 to 1.

Labour HQ has very little control over Labour run councils or MPs these days. The Merseyside councils will do what is best for them and that is cutting costs. Its hard to imagine part of Network Rail system that is more suited to DOO.

 

[Bellbell]

Why on earth do you labour under that assumption that I have quoted your posting. Do I sense a touch of a sore point on your behalf?

All my posting was just one of my usual beatitudes that could be applied to the RMT on the many threads in which they feature. However, if you want one of the eight official beatitudes:-
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be satisfied
Matthew 5:3-10.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest he thinks you quoted his post because you did.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Well how is your pension being looked after if you are unemployed because the union failed to save your job?

Jobs are not going though are they. Even Southern have not got rid of anyone. Merseyrail have stated they won't, and it is even less likely on Northern. Goodness me, before the railway I was an apprentice trained aerospace engineer. If my employer asked me to programme a different CNC to the one I had worked on for the past few years, it happened.