Class 345 progress

[vanillasplash]

a few days ago i saw a class 345 at Reading station, really suits the new station building

 

[gwr4090]

Any evidence that the ETCS problem with running Class 345s to Heathrow is nearing solution yet ? The installation of ETCS elsewhere on the GWML has apparently been abandoned, although this has not been acknowledged publicly.

 

[superkev]

According to this months Modern Railways TIN watch (miles per techinical incident) class 345 is up a bit at 3266. For comparison a class 800 is 6326, a 700 is 5715, 707 9111 and a 345 is just 3266. A 30 year old pacer MTIN is 8933. Pretty poor really.
K

 

[47802]

According to this months Modern Railways TIN watch (miles per techinical incident) class 345 is up a bit at 3266. For comparison a class 800 is 6326, a 700 is 5715, 707 9111 and a 345 is just 3266. A 30 year old pacer MTIN is 8933. Pretty poor really.
K

But then its first of type, have to work with multiple signalling systems, still resolving many issues no doubt, and the "Superior" 700 Siemens product is hardly outstanding on those figures.

 

[Domh245]

It'd be interesting to compare figures for the 700 at the same time last year which would represent the 2 fleets at similar timespans since first service.

 

[superkev]

But then its first of type, have to work with multiple signalling systems, still resolving many issues no doubt, and the "Superior" 700 Siemens product is hardly outstanding on those figures.

I'll stick with my VW golf with 66k on it and dosent break down every 3000 miles or so and has been nice and cool witb air con that aways works.
K

 

[Dave1987]

Get the impression that these latest generations of trains are way over engineered. Where did the engineering principles of KISS disappear to? Technology and complexity for the sake of technology and complexity?

 

[jon0844]

What are the reasons the 700s are failing? Besides drivers having ongoing issues releasing the doors, and many units being in the wrong location (leading to cancellations or trains starting from another station) I cannot recall a train cancelled on the GN side because of another reason.

(Answer perhaps best put in the Class 700 thread)

 

[rebmcr]

What are the reasons the 700s are failing? Besides drivers having ongoing issues releasing the doors, and many units being in the wrong location (leading to cancellations or trains starting from another station) I cannot recall a train cancelled on the GN side because of another reason.

(Answer perhaps best put in the Class 700 thread)

AC/DC changeover was a big one for a while, I don't know whether it's still the case. Would explain the difference in figures between 700 and 707 though.

 

[jon0844]

AC/DC changeover was a big one for a while, I don't know whether it's still the case. Would explain the difference in figures between 700 and 707 though.

Might also explain why there haven't really been any issues with the 700s on the ECML.

There was that recent fire on a 717 at Moorgate, which I assume was caused by the shoegear and third rail.

 

[Jpeg]

According to someone in another thread:

The August Modern Railways (page 73)

1. ECTS in the Heathrow tunnels is now installed and proven by the Class 313 test train.
2. Class 345s soon will replace Class 360s, once the 345s have their ECTS equipment approval .

 

[43096]

According to someone in another thread:

The August Modern Railways (page 73)

1. ECTS in the Heathrow tunnels is now installed and proven by the Class 313 test train.
2. Class 345s soon will replace Class 360s, once the 345s have their ECTS equipment approval .

I think you mean ETCS.

 

[hwl]

According to someone in another thread:

The August Modern Railways (page 73)

1. ECTS in the Heathrow tunnels is now installed and proven by the Class 313 test train.
2. Class 345s soon will replace Class 360s, once the 345s have their ECTS equipment approval .

The big question: is that with GW-ATP turned on or off that things are working?

I thought the 313 proving was along time ago and with ETCS off???

 

[43096]

The big question: is that with GW-ATP turned on or off that things are working?

I thought the 313 proving was along time ago and with ETCS off???

Eh? How does the 313 proving work with ETCS off given that the whole point was to prove ETCS!

 

[hwl]

Eh? How does the 313 proving work with ETCS off given that the whole point was to prove ETCS!

Needed more Coffee, 313 ETCS tested with GW-ATP turned off

 

[43096]

Needed more Coffee, 313 ETCS tested with GW-ATP turned off

Ah! That makes sense. Thanks.

 

[gwr4090]

The issue of Rail published last week implies that the problem with incompatibility of ETCS and GW-ATP in the Heathrow tunnels has still not yet been solved so the Class 345s fitted with ETCS are still unable to reach Heathrow ? The installation and testing of ETCS (in isolation) in the tunnels mentioned by Modern Railways happened some time ago.

 

[TwistedMentat]

I'm not a hardware person but how can it be that the two systems would interfere with each other enough?

IIRC ATP works off of magnetic fields whilst ETCS is more about data modulated over radio. Yes they both involve electro magnetic fields but from what I understand work in entirely different ways.

I must be missing some understanding of the two systems. As the people involved know more about these systems than I do.

 

[hwl]

I'm not a hardware person but how can it be that the two systems would interfere with each other enough?

IIRC ATP works off of magnetic fields whilst ETCS is more about data modulated over radio. Yes they both involve electro magnetic fields but from what I understand work in entirely different ways.

I must be missing some understanding of the two systems. As the people involved know more about these systems than I do.

Both are radio (i.e. electric field component) and both use 27.1MHz frequency band. When trying to come up with the ETCS spec and suitable frequency etc. at the very beginning 25 years ago they took the Belgian ACEC TBL1 as a good bench mark that 27.1MHz works for rail signalling applications and it worked well as political compromise. GW-ATP happens to be a modified version of ACEC (later GEC later Alstom) TBL1. The TBL 1 antannae happen to be very inefficient and emit very large magnetic field components compared to the electric field and later TBL2/2+). TBL1 development predated all the EMC regulations.

When the signalling was done for the Heathrow Tunnels they decided to double up on the ATP track antennae to improve reliability.

27.1MHz is above the waveguide propagation cut off frequency given the tunnel diameter and geometry.

You can image where this is going...

Completely unconnectedly - DfT, Heathrow, GWR HS2 and CR all signed up to a cunning plan earlier this year to remove ATP stock from the Heathrow tunnel stock by autumn next year. (all ETCS in time)

 

[TwistedMentat]

Both are radio (i.e. electric field component) and both use 27.1MHz frequency band. When trying to come up with the ETCS spec and suitable frequency etc. at the very beginning 25 years ago they took the Belgian ACEC TBL1 as a good bench mark that 27.1MHz works for rail signalling applications and it worked well as political compromise. GW-ATP happens to be a modified version of ACEC (later GEC later Alstom) TBL1. The TBL 1 antannae happen to be very inefficient and emit very large magnetic field components compared to the electric field and later TBL2/2+). TBL1 development predated all the EMC regulations.

When the signalling was done for the Heathrow Tunnels they decided to double up on the ATP track antennae to improve reliability.

27.1MHz is above the waveguide propagation cut off frequency given the tunnel diameter and geometry.

You can image where this is going...

Completely unconnectedly - DfT, Heathrow, GWR HS2 and CR all signed up to a cunning plan earlier this year to remove ATP stock from the Heathrow tunnel stock by autumn next year. (all ETCS in time)

Ah....

Right....

So to translate into something more techie. ATP is like someone modifying 802.11b wifi with some powerful and leaky transceivers while ETCS is the properly to spec 802.11g wifi. They both work in the same frequency band but the old system essentially drowns out the new good stuff.

If that's the case then I'd be surprised if they didn't have problems.

 

[Buggleskelly]

027 is still stabled at Gidea Park, any idea how long this unit is going to be staying there?

 

[swt_passenger]

Wouldn’t it have been better to post about the Crossrail timetable in an existing thread in the timetables section?

 

[yorkie]

Wouldn’t it have been better to post about the Crossrail timetable in an existing thread in the timetables section?

Agreed!

This thread is just for Class 345 progress.

I have moved some recent posts discussing the Crossrail timetable to this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/crossrail-timetable.141658/

 

[Ethano92]

Don't want to start a whole new thread for this.

Just got off an ice cold 345. Due to engineering works, trains weren't stopping at goodmayes and Maryland and were terminating at Stratford rather than Liverpool street. The PIS wasn't working. The screens were blank and there were no announcements, the driver made a few manually. Can the 345s PIS not cope with service changes, they're phrases put together, not full sentences like on the bakerloo. The only reason I think this is because I recently also took one of the (I think) regular peak time services terminating at Gidea park and again, the PIS wasn't working and passengers could only 'rely' on a few manual announcements. I don't really know how these things work, just curious.

 

[vinnym70]

Don't want to start a whole new thread for this.

Just got off an ice cold 345. Due to engineering works, trains weren't stopping at goodmayes and Maryland and were terminating at Stratford rather than Liverpool street. The PIS wasn't working. The screens were blank and there were no announcements, the driver made a few manually. Can the 345s PIS not cope with service changes, they're phrases put together, not full sentences like on the bakerloo. The only reason I think this is because I recently also took one of the (I think) regular peak time services terminating at Gidea park and again, the PIS wasn't working and passengers could only 'rely' on a few manual announcements. I don't really know how these things work, just curious.

I really would hope the PIS could cope with unexpected situations. Given that everyone will want to avoid disruption propagating across the whole Crossrail network, it would be nice to assume that the potential workings had been catered for on the PIS. Perhaps not? Or is it the case the drivers don't know (or have time?) to fix issues when they arise?

 

[iphone76]

Don't want to start a whole new thread for this.

Just got off an ice cold 345. Due to engineering works, trains weren't stopping at goodmayes and Maryland and were terminating at Stratford rather than Liverpool street. The PIS wasn't working. The screens were blank and there were no announcements, the driver made a few manually. Can the 345s PIS not cope with service changes, they're phrases put together, not full sentences like on the bakerloo. The only reason I think this is because I recently also took one of the (I think) regular peak time services terminating at Gidea park and again, the PIS wasn't working and passengers could only 'rely' on a few manual announcements. I don't really know how these things work, just curious.

The PIS system is linked to the head code and the long term timetable, so it doesn't deal very well with short term changes such as terminating at Stratford or skipping Goodmayes. We can use a manual code for an all stations service to terminate at any station on the line, however, this wouldn't work for missing stops. (We do have the option to skip a station on the PIS, however, this is done manually when the train doors are released at the station before the station being skipped).

The 315 PIS system could deal with this better, as each stopping pattern has a bespoke code which is just input on set-up.

 

[vinnym70]

Ouch. I can foresee a lot more short-term replanning on Crossrail to minimise reactionary delays from the "other side" so having a hard-linked PIS seems like an issue.
Certainly, if you were trying to get this right from the start, you'd have planned to have the driver able to modify the PIS accordingly as circumstances dictate surely?
This feels like a PIS that will be regularly deviated from regular stopping patterns if ever there was one.

 

[iphone76]

Ouch. I can foresee a lot more short-term replanning on Crossrail to minimise reactionary delays from the "other side" so having a hard-linked PIS seems like an issue.
Certainly, if you were trying to get this right from the start, you'd have planned to have the driver able to modify the PIS accordingly as circumstances dictate surely?
This feels like a PIS that will be regularly deviated from regular stopping patterns if ever there was one.

Yes. There is a screen in one of the menus which lists all the stations. (Well if the train is heading to Liverpool Street from Shenfield all the stations say LST - but that is by the by). It would be good if we could select and de-select a station or stations - however - the functionality doesn't appear to have been enabled. (If it ever will).

When there are major changes such as a lot of stations being skipped, we are told to switch off / disable the PIS and make manual announcements and then re-enable when appropriate.

There are a lot of things on the 345 which are not ideal/ easily customisable - the PIS being one of them.

 

[coppercapped]

It'd be interesting to compare figures for the 700 at the same time last year which would represent the 2 fleets at similar timespans since first service.

I've been putting the figures published by Roger Ford into a spreadsheet which you may find interesting:

This could have been pasted into any of the appropriate threads - this is as good as any!

A couple of notes.

The Class 345 has been reported separately as Reduced Length Units (7 coaches) and Full Length Units (9 coaches) from Period 2 of FY2018-19.

MTIN is Miles per Technical Incident - a delay of 3 minutes or more, the report is generated automatically; MAA is the Moving Annual Average of the MTIN figure and the Miles per Unit are calculated by me on the basis of the published information. It is an average for the fleet over the month. In the case of the Class 707 the fleet size was quoted as 12 up to the end of FY2017-18 and as 30 from Period 1 of 2018-19 which may explain the drop.

In general the results can at best be described as miserable.

 

[Class 170101]

The PIS system is linked to the head code and the long term timetable, so it doesn't deal very well with short term changes such as terminating at Stratford or skipping Goodmayes. We can use a manual code for an all stations service to terminate at any station on the line, however, this wouldn't work for missing stops. (We do have the option to skip a station on the PIS, however, this is done manually when the train doors are released at the station before the station being skipped).

The 315 PIS system could deal with this better, as each stopping pattern has a bespoke code which is just input on set-up.

Neither the Class 315s or Class 345s would have coped today. The changes for Stratford weren't planned by Train Planners and so there would have been nothing in system for the PIS to work against as it was an NR short notice possession.