FANTASY: You're running the next South Eastern franchise. What would you do?

[Doomotron]

The purpose of this thread originally was a question about the extension to Southeastern's franchise until 2019. However, as the question has been answered and I'm lazy, I decided to repurpose the thread into a fantasy about what you'd do if you ran the next franchise.

Spoiler: Original Post

According to Rail Magazine the new franchise will begin nextyear but on Southeastern's website it will begin in November. Who is right? Is it just Southeastern's website not being updated or is it ending earlier now?

I would replace the Networkers with Hitachi AT100s first of all. While they're being built, the 375/6s will have their pantographs recommissioned and have brighter lights installed (also possibly applicable to the /7s) and the /9s would have the 2+3 seating changed so the 3 seats is now 2 a cross instead. I would also electrify the Marshlink Line and take control off of Southern. The line, if possible, would be electrified with third rail but if this cannot happen it will be electrified with High Speed 1-style OHE. The /6s would operate on this line for the stopping services to Hastings from Ashford and Class 803s (new IETs built to the specification of the 395s) and 395s would run High Speed services to Hastings. Extra HS services would be provided although 'Kent Loop' services would be abolished. It would be replaced with trains running via Ashford terminating at Margate (which would have its 5th platform reinstated) and trains via Faversham would terminate at Ramsgate. Services to Maidstone would run all day. There would also be one fast and slow train per hour operated by Electrostars on both the Canterbury West and Deal lines. 2 Class 92s and/or 2 Class 57s would be modified and used as Thunderbird locomotives. Ashford International would be remodeled so you can get to HS1 from Platforms 1 and 2 and Platforms 3 and 4 would be modified to take both Eurostars and NR services, like at Lille Europe.

 

[HH]

According to Rail Magazine the new franchise will begin nextyear but on Southeastern's website it will begin in November. Who is right? Is it just Southeastern's website not being updated or is it ending earlier now?

IIRC the extension is for 3 periods to 31/03/19 with an optional 3 period extension. The extension looks inevitable.

 

[pdeaves]

There is an extension 24 June 2018 to 31 March 2019. I don't know where the November date fits in!

 

[Doomotron]

There is an extension 24 June 2018 to 31 March 2019. I don't know where the November date fits in!

IIRC the extension is for 3 periods to 31/03/19 with an optional 3 period extension. The extension looks inevitable.

I guess it was just Southeastern's website not being updated yet. So that's the end of that. Actually, I have an idea. A fantasy "run the SE franchise" thing could be quite fun.

 

[nw1]

Not really a local but I will say - remove the premium for 'Javelin' services so that people can use them as a fast way to travel from Kent to London and vice-versa, without having to pay for the privilege of doing so. This will address a lot of concerns on here about non-Javelin trains from Chatham, Canterbury etc. being too slow; I know from experience that the 'classic' train from Victoria to Canterbury East stops much more than in the 1980s or 1990s. That's fine, as long as you can use the Javelin without a penalty.

This could even allow some form of rationalisation of the 'classic' services, as then they could focus 100% on providing the local stopping service, calling at all stations from Swanley or Sevenoaks outwards at half-hourly frequency. The Hastings services could provide the fast link from Tonbridge to London (as now?)

Maybe introduce Javelins to Canterbury East as well as West, some form of half hourly Javelin service to Faversham with one going to Margate and the other to Dover, so we end up with something similar in many ways to the 1980s timetable with fasts ovetaking slows and providing connections at Faversham - the difference being that the fasts are Javelins and use HS1.

If you can use fast SWR services from Southampton to London without penalty, why not fast HS1 services from Kent?

 

[Ianno87]

Not really a local but I will say - remove the premium for 'Javelin' services so that people can use them as a fast way to travel from Kent to London and vice-versa, without having to pay for the privilege of doing so. This will address a lot of concerns on here about non-Javelin trains from Chatham, Canterbury etc. being too slow; I know from experience that the 'classic' train from Victoria to Canterbury East stops much more than in the 1980s or 1990s. That's fine, as long as you can use the Javelin without a penalty.

This could even allow some form of rationalisation of the 'classic' services, as then they could focus 100% on providing the local stopping service, calling at all stations from Swanley or Sevenoaks outwards at half-hourly frequency. The Hastings services could provide the fast link from Tonbridge to London (as now?)

Maybe introduce Javelins to Canterbury East as well as West, some form of half hourly Javelin service to Faversham with one going to Margate and the other to Dover, so we end up with something similar in many ways to the 1980s timetable with fasts ovetaking slows and providing connections at Faversham - the difference being that the fasts are Javelins and use HS1.

If you can use fast SWR services from Southampton to London without penalty, why not fast HS1 services from Kent?

1) The Javelins seem popular even with the premium pricing; why would you price drop

2) SWR services are charged at preumium prices for Southampton-London.... compared to going via GTR services!

 

[gerry9253]

The Javelins on the Faversham service are no faster to London than the 'Classic' service. One or the other needs to provide a faster service by cutting out so many stops. The 'fast' service I used to use from Faversham to Victoria only had four stops! With all the house building going on I would imagine a faster service is essential.....

 

[ArchieWoodbine]

I would also electrify the Marshlink Line

I'm all-for electrification in general, but is there a real need to do the above? Given it's in places a single line and hence unable to support a high frequency of services, would the benefits of electrificaiton really out-weigh the very considerable construction costs (especially if OLE has to be used)?

 

[Doomotron]

I'm all-for electrification in general, but is there a real need to do the above? Given it's in places a single line and hence unable to support a high frequency of services, would the benefits of electrificaiton really out-weigh the very considerable construction costs (especially if OLE has to be used)?

I was thinking that (other than doubling the line, which I forgot to add) having one tiny unelectrified line between two electrified lines being electrified makes sense because then you'd have more capacity at Ashford (I forgot this as well) as HS trains could use Platforms 1 and 2 and trains would no longer have to terminate at Ore.

 

[jopsuk]

Marshlink: electrify and capacity improvement (more and longer trains)
End the HS1 premium

All Metro area stations (no matter how hard...): 250 car platforms. The same at all stations served by London trains outside of the Metro area

Additional Grade Separation in the Lewisham & Hither Green area

Fleet:
two new fleets.
Metro: 200m (with option for 240-250m extension) Hitachi AT100
Mainline: 120m AT200 with non-gangway ends*

In fact: Metro- to be painted in LO colours and run, under the franchise, as a concession for TfL

Additional AT300 (class 395) to ensure more services can run at 12 car

Work with TfL to deliver three Metro area projects:
Crossrail to Ebbsfleet on dedicated tracks
Bakerloo to Hayes
Overground to Bromley North from New Cross via St Johns and Lewisham

Advance works to prepare the entire SE sector for conversion to ETCS and 25kV


*providing a cascade of the 375 fleet to all be converted to 377s and sent to Southern, who lose the Gatwick Express 387s to Great Northern (wiping out their Networkers) and GWR.

 

[gordonthemoron]

make Greenwich services regular 10 minute frequency rather than the current 2/3 within 10 or so minutes and then a substantial gap

 

[BananaRepublic]

......Ashford International would be remodeled so you can get to HS1 from Platforms 1 and 2 and Platforms 3 and 4 would be modified to take both Eurostars and NR services, like at Lille Europe.

There's an obvious problem there..... !!!
Note that Lille only needs to accommodate UIC gauge trains, high speed or not.


vv

 

[NorthKent1989]

I would refurbish the Networkers, give them a much needed deep clean fit to run for another 15-20 years

Provide faster services for the classic main line routes, for instances the Chatham routes would have this sort of service:
Ramsgate/Dover, all stops ro Faversham, then Medway Town stations fast from Rochester to Bromley South then Victoria, then you can have a stopping service from Sheerness, all stops to Bromley then Victoria, this service would also call at Beckenham Junction for the tram interchange, creating a new link between Medway and Croydon

Same for the SEML, most main line services would run fast from Tonbridge, with Tunbridge Wells services making additional calls to Orpington then fast to London

Hopefully the metro routes to Hayes, Sevenoaks and Dartford would be transferred to TfL, with Gravesend via Sidcup and the Gillingham via Greenwich and Woolwich (yes I would bring this service back to SE since Thameslink have made a pigs ear of it) being the only routes left with SE

Have Crossrail feeder routes to Maidstone, Tonbridge and Canterbury.

Making sure to.provide step free accessabo where possible

 

[londonteacher]

I would refurbish the Networkers, give them a much needed deep clean fit to run for another 15-20 years

Provide faster services for the classic main line routes, for instances the Chatham routes would have this sort of service:
Ramsgate/Dover, all stops ro Faversham, then Medway Town stations fast from Rochester to Bromley South then Victoria, then you can have a stopping service from Sheerness, all stops to Bromley then Victoria, this service would also call at Beckenham Junction for the tram interchange, creating a new link between Medway and Croydon

Same for the SEML, most main line services would run fast from Tonbridge, with Tunbridge Wells services making additional calls to Orpington then fast to London

Hopefully the metro routes to Hayes, Sevenoaks and Dartford would be transferred to TfL, with Gravesend via Sidcup and the Gillingham via Greenwich and Woolwich (yes I would bring this service back to SE since Thameslink have made a pigs ear of it) being the only routes left with SE

Have Crossrail feeder routes to Maidstone, Tonbridge and Canterbury.

Making sure to.provide step free accessabo where possible

There is no reason why the Thameslink service couldn't exist. On the whole this service is well used, and is fairly reliable.

 

[Esker-pades]

There is no reason why the Thameslink service couldn't exist. On the whole this service is well used, and is fairly reliable.

The paths could be better used by other trains though. The Thameslink service takes far longer than the previous Charing Cross-Gillingham service that it replaces. It also fouls up the even gaps between services on the Greenwich line.

Symptom of it being shoe-horned in at the last minute. It doesn't quite work.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Since the Redhill to Tonbridge service isn’t now a shuttle, I would like for a future SE franchise to restore these services to London Bridge though with all the changes I’m not sure if this would be possible.

I want to reiterate the step free access issue, it’s actually quite appalling how bad it is on some stations, Penge East springs to mind, it’s staggering that in 2018, this is even an issue.

Some of the stations could do with a deep clean also.

 

[Typhoon]

I want to reiterate the step free access issue, it’s actually quite appalling how bad it is on some stations, Penge East springs to mind, it’s staggering that in 2018, this is even an issue.

Absolutely, a quick look on the South Eastern website demonstrated how many stations are not wheelchair accessible. Even if it isn't South Eastern's problem directly, they could put a bit (?a lot) of pressure on! Should be a priority.

 

[island]

Gate every station on the three Dartford lines and staff the gates morning and evening. And gate Lewisham to Orpington and Hayes whilst on the matter. Fare evasion (ticketless travel, short-faring and doughnutting) is rife.

 

[londonteacher]

The paths could be better used by other trains though. The Thameslink service takes far longer than the previous Charing Cross-Gillingham service that it replaces. It also fouls up the even gaps between services on the Greenwich line.

Symptom of it being shoe-horned in at the last minute. It doesn't quite work.

Extend one of the Cannon Street - Dartford to Gillingham.

 

[londonteacher]

Gate every station on the three Dartford lines and staff the gates morning and evening. And gate Lewisham to Orpington and Hayes whilst on the matter. Fare evasion (ticketless travel, short-faring and doughnutting) is rife.

Definitely should do this! All stations should be gated and staffed until end of service.

 

[Esker-pades]

Extend one of the Cannon Street - Dartford to Gillingham.

That's even worse for timing.

 

[londonteacher]

I don't personally see the need for a fast service. From Gillingham you can get HS1 into London. Yes it costs more but if you don't want to pay for it then you travel on a slower service.

 

[Aictos]

A few things that would be nice to consider for the next Franchise:

1. South Western Railway to cascade their Class 707s with Siemens being contracted to extend them to 6 cars with the idea that they would replace the Class 466s on Metro services.

2. More stations to be staffed from First to Last service generally this would mean being staffed 24/7.

3. Better revenue protection policy by being more proactive checking tickets, installing more ticket gates and generally a far tougher approach then currently is.

4. Free wifi on all Mainline services first then rolled out to Metro services.

5. A addon order to the existing Class 395 fleet of 16 more, this would allow all HS services to run as 12 cars plus have the potential to increase these services.

6. Batteries fitted to the 377/5 fleet and use them on the Charing Cross to Hastings services extended to Ashford International via Ore which would replace the existing 171s to be used elsewhere.

 

[Doomotron]

There's an obvious problem there..... !!!
Note that Lille only needs to accommodate UIC gauge trains, high speed or not.


vv

That's not what I meant. First, the junction to the west of the station would be remodelled so Javelin services can run on the Marshlink Line. It is currently impossible for trains on the Marshlink Line to get onto HS1 (and vice-versa) without doing a double reversal into/out of Platform 3 and 2.
As for Platforms 3 and 4, they would be modified so that when a Eurostar is not using the island, National Rail can use them. It would work like at Lille Europe station, where the two Eurostar platforms are used by normal trains and then, when a Eurostar is going to arrive, the platform is sealed off from the national services so only international passengers can use the platform and get on the train. This has been how Lille Europe has worked for a long time and it would certainly be useful at Ashford International because a) Platforms 5 and 6 are under huge pressure with the amount of trains using it and b) there's only a couple of Eurostar services that stop at Ashford per day. I did look into the idea of making P3-4 National Rail ONLY but I decided that destroying the Eurostar footbridge and check-in area (as they would not be needed) would cost more than just using a proven system to use both. As for the loading gauge thing, that won't be an issue as Class 373s already use the platforms and there isn't a problem, and HS2 would operate both Berne guage and UK-sized stock.

 

[goblinuser]

1. Add working ticket machines to all stations on the network.
2. Refurbish the Networkers in a similar style to the class 345.
3. Don't waste any money changing liveries or signage.
4. Put high quality catering on the class 395s, and a first class section with a quality meal included.
5. Market HS1 and the class 395 selling points of 140mph, comfort, and more.
6. Reduce fares for short trips within Kent to improve availability for local people and compete with buses.
7. Look into electrifying routes with OHLE. It's a pity to see Javelins using 1920s third rail technology.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Absolutely, a quick look on the South Eastern website demonstrated how many stations are not wheelchair accessible. Even if it isn't South Eastern's problem directly, they could put a bit (?a lot) of pressure on! Should be a priority.

Definitely, it could be a Council or borough issue but SE should indeed put on loads of pressure, Penge East is disgusting for this, a lot of the station on that line aren’t step free, Herne Hill, Bromley South and Orpington are, don’t get me started on Brixton, that’s a tube interchange yet it’s mainline station is a joke.

I don't personally see the need for a fast service. From Gillingham you can get HS1 into London. Yes it costs more but if you don't want to pay for it then you travel on a slower service.

That’s all well and good but some work in the West End and demand either Victoria or CX, St. Pancras is a rather awkward point to travel onward from, also premium prices is another issue, anything beyond the M25 should be fast, aren’t people entitled to a choice?

My other wish lists for the upcoming franchise is:

A complete rebuild of Brixton station, work with TfL to create a better interchange between the Penge line and the Victoria line, it’s hardly attractive to get off at Brixton, tap out, down a awkward set of stairs, weaving between locals and stalls, just to tap back into the tube again.

I agree with the Bakerloo extension to Hayes, I would also have a second extension to Dartford via Bexleyheath, but that’s for a different thread.

Ticket barriers are a must, some stations are large enough to fit two barriers in

To retain CX services from the Woolwich line (or else meet the ire of the irate Charlton crowd )

 

[londonteacher]

As you say anything past the M25 should be fast, then surely the issue is more which is the best route? Via Woolwich? Via Bexleyheath? Via Crayford?

Travelling on from St Pancras is good with many tube lines and buses to be able to transfer people to people to the West End.

 

[ScotGG]

Place massive emphasis on Metro routes and leisure/off peak travel. Huge potential unrealised as many are in very busy, fast growing areas but stations are unwelcoming, unstaffed and just aren't appealing.

Look at Deptford. Fast growing. Lots going on near the station and many new homes. 6 mins from central London but doesn't feel safe a lot of the time. No staff. Same in many places.

 

[yorksrob]

I would reinstate a weekend service from the Kent Coast going fast from Ashford, Bearstead, Maidstone East then London Bridge, Waterloo East and Charing Cross.

 

[Esker-pades]

I don't personally see the need for a fast service. From Gillingham you can get HS1 into London. Yes it costs more but if you don't want to pay for it then you travel on a slower service.

You've already identified a reason.
Others include: faster journey times from Bluewater (Greenhithe station) and Dartford into London. Dartford services are painfully slow, especially for quite a big station by passenger flow.