FANTASY: You're running the next South Eastern franchise. What would you do?

[yorksrob]

No-one is forced to pay more. People choose to. If you want a fast journey pay more, if you want to save money you stop more.

Why, I never used to have to pay for a faster journey - I just used to turn up when the fast train was due to leave. That sounds like a far better system to me.

 

[fusionblue]

As much as I enjoy my direct trains from Bexleyheath to Charing Cross and vice versa, I am one of those rare people who understands there is a world outside my window and that in future, unless the Hayes line is taken into the Bakerloo line and other reasonable adjustments are made, we will have no option but to have Cannon Street only.

That said, it would require HUGE changes to the way Lewisham is. They would need to bulldoze and re-build.

My idea assumes NR won't spend any money (which they've confirmed they wont) on any major infrastructure projects - i presume building above Lewisham's existing station is far easier/cheaper than completely disconnecting the track, destroying everything and starting over.

 

[ComUtoR]

Not sure why you need a 20% pay rise or indeed to DCO the entire lot, I'll assume your job!

Because money buys anything. SE Drivers are comparatively underpaid and will start to hemorrhage staff to other TOCs. We are already seeing this happen. ote I also mentioned heavy caveats. TO stop strikes, increase services, run 24hrs, holidays, Sundays etc etc. You have to stump up the cash. Pay them off and make more of it contractual and it will sort out any staffing issues for the long term.

LTSC absolutely right. I can't see why you wouldn't want a Foreman to book the boys and girls in, take delay reports (now they are doing away with fax machines), check people aren't drunk (I don't imply anything, I just can't believe booking on by phone is acceptable!).

I don't see anyone or talk to anyone when I book on. Removing the LTSC was dumb. You need local support for when things go wrong. Part of getting the service back to 100% requires people on the ground. It prevents headless chicken mode and increases service reliability.

Increased turnbacks... Interesting. Where would you put them? I would have to suggest amending Barnehurst's turn back to have another one at the London end; as well as having a London end turn back at somewhere like Abbey Wood and at Crayford.

Barnehurst is a perfect example. Your at the point of no return so adding on there would be helpful. Crayford you can already turn back in both directions but it requires 2 people because some rules are to restrictive. But places where you find the service breaks of where you could flip round a unit and run it back when the line goes up the wall. Especially where you end up past a junction where you the simply queue into a terminal station. Bromley south you can only turnback in one direction as a similar example. Part of the issues are that the lack of options to get yourself out of trouble or where silly restrictions apply.

Not sure why you wouldn't want some rounders as they are a good use of capacity when Dartford is full.

Mostly for selfish reasons.

Not sure why you would want control of ticket prices handed over - that would be asking for trouble.

Because the ticket price must reflect the actual cost of running the service and I agree with the mentality that the passenger should bear the full cost. I think you can only do that without having to constantly offset the fixed price hikes or complicated ticket prices. Let the TOC charge what they need without interference.

 

[londonteacher]

Why, I never used to have to pay for a faster journey - I just used to turn up when the fast train was due to leave. That sounds like a far better system to me.

If you look in post 84 I do suggest the service still just not as far as Gillingham.

It's the same idea though as a journey I used to do regularly from Milton Keynes to London. I was looking at on average a return of between £30-£40 on a fast Virgin Trains service or £8-£20 on a London Midland. I would say that the issue is the price of HS1 - reduce that to a small increase of a few pounds then the issue would not be there.

 

[yorksrob]

If you look in post 84 I do suggest the service still just not as far as Gillingham.

It's the same idea though as a journey I used to do regularly from Milton Keynes to London. I was looking at on average a return of between £30-£40 on a fast Virgin Trains service or £8-£20 on a London Midland. I would say that the issue is the price of HS1 - reduce that to a small increase of a few pounds then the issue would not be there.

I'm not sure that that's the case.

My family, who still live in Kent, use HS1 a lot, and they mention that it is often very overcrowded. Just removing the HS1 would likely increase overcrowding.

Providing a decent express service, on the other hand, to the heart of London for a decent price, via the classic lines would both help to tackle overcrowding on HS1 and enable more people to get to where they wanted to be.

 

[londonteacher]

I'm not sure that that's the case.

My family, who still live in Kent, use HS1 a lot, and they mention that it is often very overcrowded. Just removing the HS1 would likely increase overcrowding.

Providing a decent express service, on the other hand, to the heart of London for a decent price, via the classic lines would both help to tackle overcrowding on HS1 and enable more people to get to where they wanted to be.

As I said in my post (84) I do suggest fast services still into London.

 

[yorksrob]

As I said in my post (84) I do suggest fast services still into London.

I'm afraid I could only see all stations Otford/Sevenoaks to Folkestone/Dover in that post.

 

[londonteacher]

I'm afraid I could only see all stations Otford/Sevenoaks to Folkestone/Dover in that post.

There are services that are fast from Victoria, Charing Cross and Blackfriars in my proposals to Gillingham and towns on that line.

 

[LLivery]

376's will be due a half life refurb shortly and lack of aircon, SDO & small fleet size makes me feel they will go.

Fair enough, can't think where else they'd fit in though.

Can't fault the idea of taking the Redhill route back but it's far more logical to pile it in with the Maidstone West / Strood.

The idea of adding in Clapham High Street as a stop on the Victoria - Orpington is awful. It will require crossing moves at Shepherds Lane and at Voltaire (unless it goes down to Stewarts Lane). You're much better adding in Wandsworth, Clapham and Brixton (yes, re-build Brixton with high-level platforms) stops onto the 4tph that will operate between Victoria and Lewisham (2 to Hayes, 2 to Sidcup).

Well, whichever would be easiest. Having no direct link into Victoria while there are 12 Southeastern's passing every hour is madness. I said Orpington because it would wouldn't duplicate Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye (and give me a direct link) but yes, it makes more sense.

Why, I never used to have to pay for a faster journey - I just used to turn up when the fast train was due to leave. That sounds like a far better system to me.

Indeed.

 

[yorksrob]

There are services that are fast from Victoria, Charing Cross and Blackfriars in my proposals to Gillingham and towns on that line.

Ah well, that's no use to me or my family as we're centred around Ashford.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Because money buys anything. SE Drivers are comparatively underpaid and will start to hemorrhage staff to other TOCs. We are already seeing this happen. ote I also mentioned heavy caveats. TO stop strikes, increase services, run 24hrs, holidays, Sundays etc etc. You have to stump up the cash. Pay them off and make more of it contractual and it will sort out any staffing issues for the long term.



I don't see anyone or talk to anyone when I book on. Removing the LTSC was dumb. You need local support for when things go wrong. Part of getting the service back to 100% requires people on the ground. It prevents headless chicken mode and increases service reliability.



Barnehurst is a perfect example. Your at the point of no return so adding on there would be helpful. Crayford you can already turn back in both directions but it requires 2 people because some rules are to restrictive. But places where you find the service breaks of where you could flip round a unit and run it back when the line goes up the wall. Especially where you end up past a junction where you the simply queue into a terminal station. Bromley south you can only turnback in one direction as a similar example. Part of the issues are that the lack of options to get yourself out of trouble or where silly restrictions apply.



Mostly for selfish reasons.



Because the ticket price must reflect the actual cost of running the service and I agree with the mentality that the passenger should bear the full cost. I think you can only do that without having to constantly offset the fixed price hikes or complicated ticket prices. Let the TOC charge what they need without interference.

I know the rounders are complete cack and given what happened to my mob at Kings Cross they are going to start, the Government, specifying / nudging companies towards smaller depots in more numerous places that sign lesser routes. It's a stupid idea, but you can imagine Slade Green will spend the rest of their life doing rounders only whilst the likes of Grove Park will do only Sevenoaks and Hayes (as an example).


And yes, getting rid of LTSC and in the case of what they did to GN getting rid of DRMs and concentrating them at KGX with phones is shockingly bad.

 

[CMS]

Maybe introduce Javelins to Canterbury East as well as West, some form of half hourly Javelin service to Faversham with one going to Margate and the other to Dover, so we end up with something similar in many ways to the 1980s timetable with fasts ovetaking slows and providing connections at Faversham - the difference being that the fasts are Javelins and use HS1.

If you can use fast SWR services from Southampton to London without penalty, why not fast HS1 services from Kent?

I agree with the general point you're making but the extra Javelins Canterbury needs should be added to West, not East. The route from East is just too long via Faversham and Strood to be competitive with HS1 all the way Ashford.

Have Crossrail feeder routes to Maidstone, Tonbridge and Canterbury.

Interesting idea, do you mean Abbey Wood to Tonbridge trains? I think the journey times would be too high for this to be an attractive option?

A few things that would be nice to consider for the next Franchise:

1. South Western Railway to cascade their Class 707s with Siemens being contracted to extend them to 6 cars with the idea that they would replace the Class 466s on Metro services.

2. More stations to be staffed from First to Last service generally this would mean being staffed 24/7.

3. Better revenue protection policy by being more proactive checking tickets, installing more ticket gates and generally a far tougher approach then currently is.

4. Free wifi on all Mainline services first then rolled out to Metro services.

5. A addon order to the existing Class 395 fleet of 16 more, this would allow all HS services to run as 12 cars plus have the potential to increase these services.

6. Batteries fitted to the 377/5 fleet and use them on the Charing Cross to Hastings services extended to Ashford International via Ore which would replace the existing 171s to be used elsewhere.

Yes to all of that! If every Javelin were 12 cars, the peak on SE would be much easier.

I guess you're saying that the gap between the train and the platform would be too big, but looking at other railways it really isn't. The two platforms at Lille Europe that I mentioned take both British gauge-trains (the Class 373s) and European-sized trains (everything else).

I don't see how this would work as Class 373s deploy steps and have an adapted wheelchair access lift when using platforms on the mainland. Other UK stock probably would be ok for very able people leaping on and off them but it's just no longer viable.

Best option is to give it 12-car trains (they are allowed at local stations from Luton down)

The local stations from St Albans to the core don't require 12 cars though, and Kentish Town, Cricklewood and Hendon are max 8 cars.

I'm not an expert on this at all but I had a play based on the peak time service ran yesterday between 1700 and 1800. I may have missed things out but here goes

I like many of your ideas but there are no Canterbury East line services and no Ashford-Ramsgate via Canterbury stoppers? Dover would be overserved and of all the HS routes, the Margate/Ramsgate via Canterbury is the one that would benefit most from a frequency increase.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I agree with the general point you're making but the extra Javelins Canterbury needs should be added to West, not East. The route from East is just too long via Faversham and Strood to be competitive with HS1 all the way Ashford.


Interesting idea, do you mean Abbey Wood to Tonbridge trains? I think the journey times would be too high for this to be an attractive option?


Yes to all of that! If every Javelin were 12 cars, the peak on SE would be much easier.


I don't see how this would work as Class 373s deploy steps and have an adapted wheelchair access lift when using platforms on the mainland. Other UK stock probably would be ok for very able people leaping on and off them but it's just no longer viable.


The local stations from St Albans to the core don't require 12 cars though, and Kentish Town, Cricklewood and Hendon are max 8 cars.


I like many of your ideas but there are no Canterbury East line services and no Ashford-Ramsgate via Canterbury stoppers? Dover would be overserved and of all the HS routes, the Margate/Ramsgate via Canterbury is the one that would benefit most from a frequency increase.

And the Luton trains don't stop at Hendon, Cricklewood and Kentish Town. Remarkable!

 

[CMS]

And the Luton trains don't stop at Hendon, Cricklewood and Kentish Town. Remarkable!

Totally remarkable!

 

[KX03HZY]

These are my ideas from the mad 'London & Kent Railways' bid for the franchise lol

Rolling stock:
New metro-style CAF Civity units to replace the 376/465/466 fleets. Will feature 2+2 seating throughout, free wi-fi, USB charging sockets, and big information screens as well as walk-through carriages and toilets. Ordered in 6 and 12 carriage formations to 20m carriage length. Rebuilt Slade Green depot as a dedicated facility.

All Class 375s to be refurbished with Class 377/5 converted to Class 375/5 units. All units to receive 2+2 seating throughout with tables, to be fitted with USB and plug charging sockets, better information and DOO monitors.

All class 395s to be refurbished with an additional order of new Hitachi AT300s. All trains to feature free wi-fi, USB and plug charging and better information screens.

Infrastructure
Rebuild of Brixton, Lewisham and Bromley South stations to provide better hubs, and mixed-use development.

Upgrading the Hastings line to dual-track throughout with higher line speeds. Upgrades to all other lines to feature upgraded signalling and higher line-speeds.

Conversion of the Marshlink Line to HS1 standards to allow a high-speed service to London taking just 1 hour. New parkway stations at Rye and Appledore. Ham Street, Ore, and Winchelsea to be upgraded receiving 1tph.

A rebuilt & merged Charing Cross/Waterloo East station called Trafalgar Square & Southbank. Allows longer platforms, other mixed-use platform & upgraded facilities.

Service levels
Increase frequencies on all branches wherever possible. As well as this lengthen train-formations to provide more seats. 12 car formations on all peak services in and out of London.

Taking over the Redhill-Tonbridge line to allow direct Maidstone-Gatwick services to improve connectivity.

A new 3tph service between Hastings and St Pancras, using the converted Marshlink line. 1tph stopping, 1tph fast and 1tph semi-fast.

All Metro stations in the London area to receive at least 6tph Monday-Saturday daytimes. Last trains extended to 3AM out of London.

I hope you guys like this!

 

[NorthKent1989]

As well as a Bakerloo extension to Hayes, I would also have a second branch take over the Bexleyheath line, after Lewisham, there would be new stops at Lee High Road, Sutcliffe Park then rejoins the line at Kidbrooke onwards to Dartford.

 

[island]

What’s wrong with Blackheath and Lee stations?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

As well as a Bakerloo extension to Hayes, I would also have a second branch take over the Bexleyheath line, after Lewisham, there would be new stops at Lee High Road, Sutcliffe Park then rejoins the line at Kidbrooke onwards to Dartford.

What the heck?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Suffice to say any extension of LUL beyond simply Lewisham - Hayes and perhaps some services to Beckenham Junction would be vastly unwelcome.

 

[Doomotron]

I don't see how this would work as Class 373s deploy steps and have an adapted wheelchair access lift when using platforms on the mainland. Other UK stock probably would be ok for very able people leaping on and off them but it's just no longer viable.

If you say so. Then again, Platforms 3 and 4 would have to be slightly rebuilt to allow passengers for NR services to get to them (including widening the stairs and adding a lift, as well as adding a Lille Europe-style way of sealing off the platform from NR passengers. In this rebuild, slightly raising the platforms wouldn't be difficult. Remember Stratford International?

Spoiler

Don't answer that question. It is rhetorical.

 

[NorthKent1989]

What the heck?

It's a fantasy thread, not to be taken as literal, though in the past LUL have considered a tube extension over the Bexleyheath line.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Interesting idea, do you mean Abbey Wood to Tonbridge trains? I think the journey times would be too high for this to be an attractive option

Journey times would be quote long between Abbey Wood to Tonbridge &/or Canterbury, this is to cast the Crossrail net much further afield to give commuters the chance to get to the Docklands or the City easier or cheaper in truth such a service would begin at Tonbridge, and would call at Maidstone West, Strood, Higham. Gravesend, Greenhithe, Dartford then Abbey Wood for Crossrail for those requiring it, otherwise the train will continue to London either via Lewisham to CX or via Greenwich to CS

 

[4-SUB 4732]

It's a fantasy thread, not to be taken as literal, though in the past LUL have considered a tube extension over the Bexleyheath line.

And it's an abysmal idea.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Journey times would be quote long between Abbey Wood to Tonbridge &/or Canterbury, this is to cast the Crossrail net much further afield to give commuters the chance to get to the Docklands or the City easier or cheaper in truth such a service would begin at Tonbridge, and would call at Maidstone West, Strood, Higham. Gravesend, Greenhithe, Dartford then Abbey Wood for Crossrail for those requiring it, otherwise the train will continue to London either via Lewisham to CX or via Greenwich to CS

Or just make the requisite peak arrangements for additional trains (as is mandated in the franchise spec if all 4 High Speed services per hour via Gravesend then operate towards Chatham) from Cannon Street / Charing Cross via Abbey Wood to Maidstone West. It's not that difficult - except with the need for new stock with SDO for many stations on the way down the Muddy Valley.

 

[CMS]

High Speed
2tph St Pancras Int'l - Margate via Canterbury West (of which 1tph fast to Ashford Int'l)
2tph St Pancras Int'l - Faversham via Gillingham
1tph St Pancras Int'l - Dover Priory

Metro
2tph Cannon Street circular via Greenwich, Woolwich Arsenal, Sidcup
2tph Cannon Street - Gravesend via Greenwich (of which 1tph continues to Maidstone West)
2tph Cannon Street - Rainham semi-fast
2tph Victoria circular via Lewisham, Woolwich Arsenal, Bexleyheath (effectively 4tph Victoria - Blackheath)

3tph Charing Cross - Dartford via Bexleyheath
3tph Charing Cross - Dartford via Sidcup

2tph Cannon Street - Hayes via Lewisham
2tph Charing Cross - Hayes fast to Ladywell

4tph Cannon Street - Orpington (of which 2tph via Lewisham and 2tph continuing to Sevenoaks)
3tph Grove Park - Bromley North

4tph Victoria - Orpington via Herne Hill
3tph Victoria - Sevenoaks via Catford

Mainline
3tph Victoria - Maidstone East (all via Catford Loop, of which 2tph continue to Ashford Int'l, 1tph continues to Deal via Canterbury West)
2tph Victoria - Ramsgate (via Herne Hill, 1tph fast Bromley South to Rochester and semi-fast Gillingham to Ramsgate)
2tph Victoria - Dover Priory (via Herne Hill, 1tph fast Bromley South to Rochester and semi-fast Gillingham to Dover Priory)

2tph Sittingbourne - Sheerness
1tph Gillingham - Three Bridges (semi-fast Strood to Maidstone West, semi-fast Tonbridge to Three Bridges)
1tph Redhill - Ashford Int'l

2tph Charing Cross - Ramsgate (fast London Bridge to Tonbridge then all stations, 1tph via Dover Priory and 1tph via Canterbury West)
2tph Charing Cross - Hastings
2tph Charing Cross - Tunbridge Wells

Other remarks:

• Oyster extended to Greenhithe and Ebbsfleet Int'l
• Networkers gradually replaced
• Thameslink services removed from SE area, Redhill-Tonbridge returned to SE

 

[NorthKent1989]

Delving more into fantasy but I would like for there go be a
Clapham Junction to Rochester via Bromley South service even if its 1tph, could call at Brixton, Herne Hill, Penge East, Beckenham Junction, Bromley South, St. Mary's Cray then all stations to Rochester.

This would make travelling between SE & SW territories easier

 

[4-SUB 4732]

High Speed
2tph St Pancras Int'l - Margate via Canterbury West (of which 1tph fast to Ashford Int'l)
2tph St Pancras Int'l - Faversham via Gillingham
1tph St Pancras Int'l - Dover Priory

Metro
2tph Cannon Street circular via Greenwich, Woolwich Arsenal, Sidcup
2tph Cannon Street - Gravesend via Greenwich (of which 1tph continues to Maidstone West)
2tph Cannon Street - Rainham semi-fast
2tph Victoria circular via Lewisham, Woolwich Arsenal, Bexleyheath (effectively 4tph Victoria - Blackheath)

3tph Charing Cross - Dartford via Bexleyheath
3tph Charing Cross - Dartford via Sidcup

2tph Cannon Street - Hayes via Lewisham
2tph Charing Cross - Hayes fast to Ladywell

4tph Cannon Street - Orpington (of which 2tph via Lewisham and 2tph continuing to Sevenoaks)
3tph Grove Park - Bromley North

4tph Victoria - Orpington via Herne Hill
3tph Victoria - Sevenoaks via Catford

Mainline
3tph Victoria - Maidstone East (all via Catford Loop, of which 2tph continue to Ashford Int'l, 1tph continues to Deal via Canterbury West)
2tph Victoria - Ramsgate (via Herne Hill, 1tph fast Bromley South to Rochester and semi-fast Gillingham to Ramsgate)
2tph Victoria - Dover Priory (via Herne Hill, 1tph fast Bromley South to Rochester and semi-fast Gillingham to Dover Priory)

2tph Sittingbourne - Sheerness
1tph Gillingham - Three Bridges (semi-fast Strood to Maidstone West, semi-fast Tonbridge to Three Bridges)
1tph Redhill - Ashford Int'l

2tph Charing Cross - Ramsgate (fast London Bridge to Tonbridge then all stations, 1tph via Dover Priory and 1tph via Canterbury West)
2tph Charing Cross - Hastings
2tph Charing Cross - Tunbridge Wells

Other remarks:

• Oyster extended to Greenhithe and Ebbsfleet Int'l
• Networkers gradually replaced
• Thameslink services removed from SE area, Redhill-Tonbridge returned to SE

So many problems here...

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Delving more into fantasy but I would like for there go be a
Clapham Junction to Rochester via Bromley South service even if its 1tph, could call at Brixton, Herne Hill, Penge East, Beckenham Junction, Bromley South, St. Mary's Cray then all stations to Rochester.

This would make travelling between SE & SW territories easier

Would just be easier to have the Brixton interchange.

 

[CMS]

So many problems here...

Good thing it's a fantasy thread then! Let's not take things too seriously!

 

[NorthKent1989]

Would just be easier to have the Brixton interchange.

Fantasy yes its possible, but I seriously doubt there will ever be a "Brixton High Level" at least not for a couple of decades, would be better to utilise existing infrastructure and make a cross South London service 1tph would suffice.

The best thing for Brixton is a complete rebuild of the station and make a better interchange to the Victoria line.