FANTASY: You're running the next South Eastern franchise. What would you do?

[LLivery]

In addition to earlier:

• Rename Farningham Road to Darenth & Horton Kirby. There isn't actually a road called Farningham Road; it's Dartford Road.

Re Networker windows- they did open wider but vermin took to throwing the seat bases and bottles out of them- hence the spacer piece in the hopper.

They need replacing as do the 376's- Network Rail and the operator will be desperate to get rid of the monitors given their maintenance costs, cause of delays and replaced with in cab monitors.

Ahh I see, I was sure they did open more. They might as well not open at all. Easily the hottest fleet in the Southern Region.

The 376s can't be scrapped, that would be a sin. Is retrofitting in-cab monitors an option?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Would both of these be needed? The area between Swanley and Rochester seems pretty rural, not sure it would justify 4tph stopping at every station; I'd have thought 2tph would do.

I agree here. Somewhere like Sole Street doesn't justify 4tph.

I think you guys are right, how about. 1tph
Vic to Fav via Catford and 1tph Vic to Roch via Beckenham Jnc ti serve these stations.?

 

[fusionblue]

Seeing as network rail has no plan to untangle Lewisham, despite trumpeting the benefits of doing the same at London Bridge for a decade, I'd do the following.

1. Send trains to/from Higher Green and the Hayes Line to Victoria, Blackfriars or CHX via the flydown or Nunhead track.
2. Send trains to/from Blackheath to Cannon St only.
3. Rebuild Lewisham station as an "inverted London Bridge" - level out the area between platforms 2-3 by the main entrance completely into a single merged platform area then create a concourse above all four platforms with lifts and escalators to access all platforms (and the DLR) in one single area.
4. Create a stretch of track from the Bexleyheath to the Sidcup (nearer to Lewisham if possible) lines to allow trains to access CHX/VIC if necessary.

 

[yorksrob]

You need to define extortionate and how you come to know that for 'many' people, St Pancakes is the wrong side of town

Extortionate = anything over and above the ordinary non-HS fare to a given point in Kent.

Charing Cross = Trafalgar Square, the west end, Westminster, etc, Waterloo = West country, London Bridge = the City etc.

 

[theageofthetra]

In addition to earlier:

• Rename Farningham Road to Darenth & Horton Kirby. There isn't actually a road called Farningham Road; it's Dartford Road.

Ahh I see, I was sure they did open more. They might as well not open at all. Easily the hottest fleet in the Southern Region.

The 376s can't be scrapped, that would be a sin. Is retrofitting in-cab monitors an option?

376's will be due a half life refurb shortly and lack of aircon, SDO & small fleet size makes me feel they will go.

 

[ScotGG]

Send the 376s to area where 10 car is the max (Southern metro?). Southeastern should be working towards many more 12 car services given all the work done to provide it over the past 5 years - platforms extensions, electrical upgrades etc.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Very easy one for me.

- Amend the High Speed (via Faversham) to be 1tph St Pancras to Ramsgate, 1tph St Pancras to Dover Priory. These would both be the 'semi-fast' services. The classic trains would be in the opposite platforms at Faversham to connect off of these to the 'other route' and go all stations.
[Main Line Victoria - Ramsgate arrives 11:00, High Speed St Pancras - Dover arrives 11:04, Ramsgate leaves 11:07, Dover leaves 11:08; then Main Line Victoria - Dover arrives 11:30, High Speed St Pancras - Ramsgate arrives 11:34, Dover leaves 11:37, Ramsgate leaves 11:38. Cross-platform interchange on up and down, similar principle both ways.]
- Thameslink to be re-routed via Longfield as the all-stopper along the Chatham Main. Two trains per hour to Gillingham.
- Southeastern to take back the services via Higham. 8tph from Cannon Street to Slade Green via Greenwich (no services via Blackheath to Charlton as demand is extremely low); 4tph continue to Strood with 2tph to Rainham and 2tph to Maidstone West.
- 2tph from Strood to Redhill taking back the Edenbridge line.
- Clockface Metro and Mainline timetable including at peak times.
- Scrap this stupid idea of the Marshlink High Speed services. Focus on third-rail electrification and operation of through services from Charing Cross as the fast trains with portions to Dover or Canterbury also included; same as the High Speed going to each of Dover or Canterbury direction.
- Metro 12 car trains with fixed-formation 8 and 4 car units so that the trains can operate as 8 coaches (or even 4) during periods of low demand and also prevent full cancellation of trains at peak hours.
- Send 376s off to Southern. Far more useful there.
- Various station improvements, first-to-last staffing at a vast number of stations (all Metro, many outside) and minimum part-time staffing (e.g. Ticket Office 0530-1030) at various others.
- More staff for trains and random revenue blocks to deter anti-social behaviour and ticketless travel
- Improved Metro stock to retain toilets and also have minimum 2+2 seating with improved pitch over 700s.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

1. Add working ticket machines to all stations on the network.
2. Refurbish the Networkers in a similar style to the class 345.
3. Don't waste any money changing liveries or signage.
4. Put high quality catering on the class 395s, and a first class section with a quality meal included.
5. Market HS1 and the class 395 selling points of 140mph, comfort, and more.
6. Reduce fares for short trips within Kent to improve availability for local people and compete with buses.
7. Look into electrifying routes with OHLE. It's a pity to see Javelins using 1920s third rail technology.

First Class and a Meal

 

[4-SUB 4732]

As you say anything past the M25 should be fast, then surely the issue is more which is the best route? Via Woolwich? Via Bexleyheath? Via Crayford?

Travelling on from St Pancras is good with many tube lines and buses to be able to transfer people to people to the West End.

Arguably the best option for these people is to be given a fast Charing Cross to Gillingham / Rainham via Bexleyheath so as to provide connections with Lewisham; and then whether Crossrail makes Dartford or Gravesend the connectivity would exist.

 

[londonteacher]

I don't see why Ashford travellers, for example, should be forced to choose between an extortionately overpriced high speed train to, what is for many, the wrong side of town, or a main line service which has been artificially slowed down.

No-one is forced to pay more. People choose to. If you want a fast journey pay more, if you want to save money you stop more.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Metro Services:

• 2tph Cannon St to Cannon St (via Sidcup & Greenwich)
• 2tph Cannon St to Cannon St (via Bexleyheath and Greenwich)
• 2tph Cannon St to Cannon St (via Sidcup & Bexleyheath)
• Excessive!
• 2tph Cannon St to Slade Green (via Lewisham & Woolwich Arsenal)
• 2tph Cannon St to Sevenoaks (all stations)
• Agree the Sevenoaks trains need to go via Lewisham to make the connection between Sevenoaks/Chelsfield and Lewisham.
• 2tph Cannon St to Hayes (all stations)
• 2tph Blackfriars to Gravesend (Greenwich, Charlton, Woolwich Arsenal, Abbey Wood, Slade Green, Dartford then all stations)
• 2tph Charing X to Hayes
• 2tph Charing X to Bromley North (via Lewisham)
• Heavy pathing conflict with more trains 'over the top'.
  
• 2tph Charing X to Dartford (via Sidcup)
• 2tph Charing X to Orpington (via Lewisham)
• Heavy pathing conflict with more trains 'over the top'.
• 2tph Charing X to Dartford (via Bexleyheath)
• 2tph Charing X to Gillingham (New Eltham, Sidcup, Dartford, Greenhithe, Gravesend, all stations)
• Not good to have this to Gillingham as them folk don't get their connectivity through Lewisham / Woolwich / Greenwich to the DLR etc.
• 2tph Victoria to Gravesend (via Bexleyheath)
• 2tph Victoria to Beckenham J (via Lewisham)
• Not necessary and also far too many trains over Peckham Rye
• 4tph Victoria to Orpington (via Herne Hill)
• 2tph Thameslink to Orpington (via Catford)
• 2tph Blackfriars to Sevenoaks (via Catford and Otford)

Mainline Services:

• 2tph Thameslink to Tunbridge Wells (Orpington, Chelsfield, Sevenoaks, all stations)
• I'm sure the T Wells punters don't want their punctuality 'polluted' with Thameslink
• 2tph Charing X to Hastings (Orpington, Sevenoaks, Tonbridge, either all stations or semi-fast)
• Very slow...
• 2tph Charing X to Canterbury West (1tph continues to Ramsgate)
• 2tph Charing X to Dover Priory (1tph continues to Margate)
• 2tph Charing X to Maidstone East (Grove Park, Swanley, Maidstone East)
• No economical reason.
• 2tph Victoria to Ramsgate (Bromley South, Rochester, all stations except Newington and Teynham)
• 2tph Victoria to Dover Priory (Bromley South, Longfield, Rochester, all stations. 1 tph runs fast from Faversham to Dover Priory)
• Why fast from Faversham to Dover? You miss out Canterbury East!
• 2tph Victoria to Ashford International (Denmark Hill, Bromley South, Swanley, Otford etc.)
• 2tph Victoria to Rainham (Denmark Hill, Bromley South, St Mary Cray, all stations)
• This should be the Thameslink service to Medway

High Speed:

• 2tph St Pancras to Margate (Stratford, Ebbsfleet, Ashford, Canterbury West, Ramsgate, Broadstairs, Margate)
• 2tph St Pancras to Ramsgate (Stratford, Ebbsfleet, Ashford, Folkestone, Dover Priory, Walmer (1tph), Deal, Sandwich (1tph), Ramsgate
• 2tph St Pancras to Margate (Stratford, Ebbsfleet, Gravesend, Strood, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne, Faversham, Whitstable, Herne Bay, Margate)
• 1tph St Pancras to Maidstone West (Stratford, Ebbsfleet, Gravesend, Strood, Snodland, New Hythe, Aylesford Maidstone Barracks, Maidstone East)
• Not required off-peak. Would be better as a classic service.

Branch Lines

• 2tph Tonbridge to Paddock Wood, of which 1tph continues to Strood
• Why would you have a shuttle from Tonbridge to Paddock Wood?!
• 2tph Sheerness to Sittingbourne
• 4tph Grove Park to Bromley North (2tph originate/terminate at Charing X)
• No paths

Bits in red...

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Fleet:

• In 2021-4 the Networkers will be touching 30. For me, it's two options - spend loads doing a refurb, including wider opening windows (they've been awfully hot this summer) or ax them. I'm leaning towards replacement.
• So, I'd take the 707s from SWR, and order additional 10 car Desiro City sets to replace the entire Networker suburban fleet.
• Totally overhaul & refurb the 376s. Add air con (if the price isn't crazy).
• For the mainline, I'd try to take the 379s from AGA. Equalling 142 Electrostars for the Mainline Fleet. Is that enough? If it isn't enough, order a more Desiro City's to plug the gap. However, if the 379's aren't available consider Desiro City's or Stadlers for the mainline.
• Refurb the HS fleet.

Stations:

• Staff all Greater London stations first to last as well as other stations with 1+ usage.
• Refurb the stations to high quality. Deep clean, new benches, signage, install barriers where possible, take off the chipping paint before repainting!
• Far too many SE station buildings are boarded up. Reopen many of the station buildings where the stations are staffed. Create Cafe's, shops, waiting rooms.
• Platform extensions to 10 car on the Penge East line.
• Put stations to Sevenoaks and Gravesend into the zones. Rezone Dartford into 6.
• Rezone Lwr Sydenham and Beckenham Hill into 3/4
• Rezone Bromley South into 4/5.

Routes:

• On Sundays, up from 2tph to 4tph on suburban services. 30 mins for a Hayes or Penge East service is ridiculous.
• I would too, stop charging a premium for HS1. What faith do I have with HS2 not charging stupidly high fares when the only domestic HS service does just that?
• Thameslink North Kent seems silly - a faster service to Dartford should be an aim.
• Consider taking back the Southern Tonbridge service - extend it to Ashford or Dover. Or Dover to Gatwick Airport.
• In the suburbs, work with GTR and SWR to create an integrated a South London suburban network. For example, united service updates, a united network map, same kind of signage. TfL has hardly any money for what it's got so, I'm not calling for LO to take over. Instead, the operators should work closely with them to provide integrated info
• Consider having mainline services which call at Denmark Hill call at Catford.
• Victoria - Orpington additionally call at Clapham High Street (after new fleet introduced).
• 4tph Bromley North

Penge East is considered step free, like Sydenham, as both entrances are well... step free. The Footbridge, however, does need a good refurb or replacing. The level crossing should've never been removed in the first place.
Not a fan of the Bakerloo line to Hayes. Lewisham yes, Hayes no thanks.

Can't fault the idea of taking the Redhill route back but it's far more logical to pile it in with the Maidstone West / Strood.

The idea of adding in Clapham High Street as a stop on the Victoria - Orpington is awful. It will require crossing moves at Shepherds Lane and at Voltaire (unless it goes down to Stewarts Lane). You're much better adding in Wandsworth, Clapham and Brixton (yes, re-build Brixton with high-level platforms) stops onto the 4tph that will operate between Victoria and Lewisham (2 to Hayes, 2 to Sidcup).

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Not SE but Thameslink, and going back to a thread from a month or two ago: having travelled on it (admittedly through the core only) yesterday I will agree that Rainham service (the one I was on was only going to Gillingham though, something like the 1737 from Farringdon) does seem very very slow with a huge list of calling points! Would agree that if the aim is to link Thameslink to the Medway towns, and there aren't the paths to run semi-fast on the Woolwich route, why not route the Thameslink to Rainham via the Sidcup line semi-fast in place of the existing SE semi-fast on that route?


Then SE could run additional all-stations to Gravesend from Charing Cross (or wherever) via the Woolwich route in place of the diverted Thameslink.

Best option is to give it 12-car trains (they are allowed at local stations from Luton down) and to route it via New Cross and Blackheath if you really need it; that way you don't get the crossing conflicts of the Charing Cross - Dartford via Lewisham and Woolwich and can go back to 10-minutely Cannon Street to Slade Green via Greenwich. The 12 car capacity would be more warranted via Lewisham with stops at New Cross (ELL), Lewisham (DLR), Blackheath (bloody busy), Woolwich Arsenal (DLR), Abbey Wood (XR), Dartford, Greenhithe, Gravesend, Higham, Strood, Rochester, Chatham and Gillingham. You can add stops in with decent pathing to Gravesend trains from CHX / VIC / CST on Southeastern for Swanscombe, Northfleet and Stone.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Would a Blackfriars type station across the Thames be allowed at Charing Cross (from a planning perspective)? It would have to be bigger, as Charing Cross currently has 6 terminating stations for a start

I'm not sure how much space on the North Bank would be released either, as there's already a large block over part of the platforms, and the station building facing the Strand are a nice hotel

It is something Network Rail are looking to achieve. Realistically you would want the station to be built over the river with entrances at both ends; improved access to Waterloo and Embankment Underground and then turning Charing Cross LU back into "Trafalgar Square".

The problem with the previous suggestion of a potential future Crossrail link down from Embankment into tunnels on the north side of the river, perhaps most importantly, is that the stock and track on the 'south side' is third rail. It's obsolete technology and wouldn't be wanted anywhere to the north.

 

[Esker-pades]

Bits in red...

I will answer them in order:

• The Sidcup line (mainly Sidcup and New Eltham) needs at least 8tph
• Thanks
• I was mainly thinking about journey times to make it a viable alternative for Medway to London services. I also discussed with somebody the possability of extending the Blackfriars to Gravesend service to Gillingham.
• 4tph Lewisham to Victoria would be useful
• I was mainly thinking of a semi-fast SE service that would work in conjunction with the northern Thameslink services I had come up with. The way the paths worked, it was the best option.
• Orpington needs all the services it can get. It also fits with a regular 10 minute frequency from London to Tonbridge. At peak I would make them divide at Tunbridge Wells, and continue fast or all stations to Ore/Hastings.
  
• Charing Cross to Maidstone East was to have regular services over the Chelsfield-St Mary Cray chord. Maidstone in general is underserved by trains, in my opinion.
• Mistake in my wording. I was never intending to run trains non-stop from Faversham to Dover. I always intended to stop everything at Canterbury East.
• Possibly, although my Thameslink Core is on 20tph all day, so I wouldn't want to try to unpick it all again
• See previous point about Maidstone
• In the timetables I have created, paths do exist

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I think you guys are right, how about. 1tph
Vic to Fav via Catford and 1tph Vic to Roch via Beckenham Jnc ti serve these stations.?

Wrong and silly - 1tph via each route would be the wrong thing. You need 2tph one way and one way only...

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Seeing as network rail has no plan to untangle Lewisham, despite trumpeting the benefits of doing the same at London Bridge for a decade, I'd do the following.

1. Send trains to/from Higher Green and the Hayes Line to Victoria, Blackfriars or CHX via the flydown or Nunhead track.
2. Send trains to/from Blackheath to Cannon St only.
3. Rebuild Lewisham station as an "inverted London Bridge" - level out the area between platforms 2-3 by the main entrance completely into a single merged platform area then create a concourse above all four platforms with lifts and escalators to access all platforms (and the DLR) in one single area.
4. Create a stretch of track from the Bexleyheath to the Sidcup (nearer to Lewisham if possible) lines to allow trains to access CHX/VIC if necessary.

As much as I enjoy my direct trains from Bexleyheath to Charing Cross and vice versa, I am one of those rare people who understands there is a world outside my window and that in future, unless the Hayes line is taken into the Bakerloo line and other reasonable adjustments are made, we will have no option but to have Cannon Street only.

That said, it would require HUGE changes to the way Lewisham is. They would need to bulldoze and re-build.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I will answer them in order:

• The Sidcup line (mainly Sidcup and New Eltham) needs at least 8tph
• Thanks
• I was mainly thinking about journey times to make it a viable alternative for Medway to London services. I also discussed with somebody the possability of extending the Blackfriars to Gravesend service to Gillingham.
• 4tph Lewisham to Victoria would be useful
• I was mainly thinking of a semi-fast SE service that would work in conjunction with the northern Thameslink services I had come up with. The way the paths worked, it was the best option.
• Orpington needs all the services it can get. It also fits with a regular 10 minute frequency from London to Tonbridge. At peak I would make them divide at Tunbridge Wells, and continue fast or all stations to Ore/Hastings.
  
• Charing Cross to Maidstone East was to have regular services over the Chelsfield-St Mary Cray chord. Maidstone in general is underserved by trains, in my opinion.
• Mistake in my wording. I was never intending to run trains non-stop from Faversham to Dover. I always intended to stop everything at Canterbury East.
• Possibly, although my Thameslink Core is on 20tph all day, so I wouldn't want to try to unpick it all again
• See previous point about Maidstone
• In the timetables I have created, paths do exist

Sidcup does not need 8tph. It barely needs 4tph off-peak. The line that needs the better service is the Bexleyheath for two key reasons:
- All trains go via Lewisham which continues to balloon in passenger numbers.
- During service disruption, it is the 'centre' line through which people from either North (Woolwich line) or South (Sidcup line) can go.

I have been on plenty of Sidcup trains even in disruption and they are not as busy. Bexleyheath trains are always rammed. Priority for 12 coach trains and better frequencies lies here.

4tph Lewisham to Victoria is useful, but what you suggested was 8tph. This is terrible.

Orpington needs services but not EVERY service. Sevenoaks also doesn't need them all. At least not off-peak.

Maidstone East will have improved services and does not need anything to snarl up the Chislehurst or St Mary Cray junctions which represent a serious punctuality risk.

I think it is easy for you to create paths at home without understanding why you can't fill every single path all day. Importantly, other companies have what we call 'fifth freedom' rights which means they are allowed to operate as well and paths are currently in the system on Southeastern services for example that they have to prepare for a freight or other service to run even though they will arrive at a place a few minutes all the time. It's the way it is.

I would suggest you take this a bit seriously if you are sitting at home identifying paths for stuff...

 

[NorthKent1989]

No-one is forced to pay more. People choose to. If you want a fast journey pay more, if you want to save money you stop more.

That’s all well and good, but as stated, more people in Kent want the West End, and a quick journey to the West End too, St. Pancras is a rather awkward tube interchange, rather lengthy to, why would anyone go to St. Pancras and change onto a packed Northern or Piccadilly line train to the West End?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Thameslink to be re-routed via Longfield as the all-stopper along the Chatham Main. Two trains per hour to Gillingham.
- Southeastern to take back the services via Higham. 8tph from Cannon Street to Slade Green via Greenwich (no services via Blackheath to Charlton as demand is extremely low); 4tph continue to Strood with 2tph to Rainham and 2tph to Maidstone West.

I agree with the Thameslink being routed via Longfield, this can replace the current stopper on that line, however cutting Lewisham and Blackheath off from the Woolwich line? You are looking for trouble with the Charlton and Woolwich crowd

Especially with upcoming bus changes around there due to Crossrail, the 180 is being cut off at Charlton and being diverted to North Greenwich (because NG doesn’t have enough buses from Woolwich already of course ) the 180 is the most direct route between Woolwich and Lewisham, the 54 will have to take the load and the 380 is far too circuitous.

Lewisham and Blackheath are useful interchange points if you need Victoria (or the LO at Peckham Rye to Clapham Junction and Kings Hospital at Denmark Hill, plus it’s a none zone one route to get to the SW London area)

Keeping services to Lewisham at 2tph is good in my opinion, and hopefully the Woolwich line can keep CX trains

 

[Esker-pades]

Sidcup does not need 8tph. It barely needs 4tph off-peak. The line that needs the better service is the Bexleyheath for two key reasons:
- All trains go via Lewisham which continues to balloon in passenger numbers.
- During service disruption, it is the 'centre' line through which people from either North (Woolwich line) or South (Sidcup line) can go.

I have been on plenty of Sidcup trains even in disruption and they are not as busy. Bexleyheath trains are always rammed. Priority for 12 coach trains and better frequencies lies here.

4tph Lewisham to Victoria is useful, but what you suggested was 8tph. This is terrible.

Orpington needs services but not EVERY service. Sevenoaks also doesn't need them all. At least not off-peak.

Maidstone East will have improved services and does not need anything to snarl up the Chislehurst or St Mary Cray junctions which represent a serious punctuality risk.

I think it is easy for you to create paths at home without understanding why you can't fill every single path all day. Importantly, other companies have what we call 'fifth freedom' rights which means they are allowed to operate as well and paths are currently in the system on Southeastern services for example that they have to prepare for a freight or other service to run even though they will arrive at a place a few minutes all the time. It's the way it is.

I would suggest you take this a bit seriously if you are sitting at home identifying paths for stuff...

The Lewisham point is true. 4 of the 8 services via Sidcup go via Lewisham. I also have 10tph to Blackheath, of which 8 continue via Bexleyheath. At peak I have a train every 5 minutes on that line.

I never suggested 8tph from Lewisham to Victoria. I can't see what part of my original post made you think that.

I'm willing to budge on Orpington and Sevenoaks calls. As trains between Tonbridge and Ashford run with 10 and 20 minute gaps, I might make the first one faster, so that it is closer to an even 15, 15.

The reason for having a Paddock Wood to Tonbridge shuttle is to give the unit doing Strood-Tonbridge something to do for the 40 minutes it is otherwise sitting at Tonbridge. It also gives an even service every 10 minutes between Tonbridge and Paddock Wood.

I missed a conflicting move on the Charing Cross to Maidstone services, so I have canned them. Thanks for giving me a prod on that one.

I'm not finding paths in the current timetables, but creating an entirely new one from scratch.

The only reason Charing Cross to Bromley North exists as a service is that I needed to find a terminus for an extra 2 Lewisham trains per hour. It was a happy accident that it worked.
Details - Down:
The Bromley North service departs from the slow lines at Hither Green 1 minute after a down fast service has passed. That gives a 9 minute window before the next fast service in the down direction. No conflict.
In the other direction, the up fast service passes Hither Green at the same time that the down Bromley North service departs. That means it is well clear of the crossovers just before Grove Park by the time the Bromley North service needs it. As there is a 10 minute gap in fast services, it works.
Details - Up:
The Bromley North service departs Grove Park 4 minutes before the next up fast is due to pass. That means when the up fast is passing Grove Park, the up Bromley North is departing Hither Green.
The tightest timetabling is between the up Bromley North and the down fast services. The up Bromley North departs Grove Park 3 minutes before the down fast is due to pass Hither Green. It should be clear 2 minutes after it departs, which is 1 minute before the down fast passes Hither Green.

 

[ComUtoR]

Staff
Drivers - 20% pay rise with heavy caveats
Platform staff at every station 24/7
DCO everywhere
LTSC at each depot
Station and depot cleaners internal only and located at all terminals
24/7 Operational support staff

Infrastructure
12 car platforms everywhere
CD/RD at all stations
Gravesend platform 0 renumbered to 1
Increased number of turnbacks
linespeed increases where possible
New sidings and depot at Sevenoaks


Routes
Gillingham / Sevenoaks via all routes to be all stations, all the time
No more rounders london and back only

Units
700s for metro
new units for mainline
scrap everything else

Franchise
25yr length
Zero subsidy
Full control over ticket price

 

[goblinuser]

First Class and a Meal

If the quality is good, the convenience of being served on board would easily compete against any platform food outlet.

 

[londonteacher]

I'm not an expert on this at all but I had a play based on the peak time service ran yesterday between 1700 and 1800. I may have missed things out but here goes:

St Pancras International (HS1)

1tph Dover Priory calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Ashford International, Folkestone West, Folkestone Central, Dover Priory

1tph Ramsgate via Gillingham calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne, Faversham, Whistable, Herne Bay, Birchington-on-Sea, Margate, Broadstairs, Dumpton Park and Ramsgate

1tph Ramsgate via Ashford International calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Ashford International, Folkestone West, Folkestone Central, Dover Priory, Martin Mill, Walmer, Deal, Sandwich and Ramsgate

1tph Maidstone West calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Gravesend, Stood, Snodland, Maidstone West

1tph Margate calling at calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Ashford International, Canterbury West, Ramsgate, Broadstairs, Margate

1tph Broadstairs via Gillingham calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Strood, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne, Faversham, Whistable, Herne Bay, Birchington-on-Sea, Margate, Broadstairs


London Cannon Street (Metro Only)

4tph Dartford via Greenwich calling all stations.

4tph London Cannon Street via Sidcup and Bexleyheath calling all stations.

4tph London Cannon Street via Bexleyheath and Sidcup calling all stations.

2tph Gravesend via Sidcup calling all stations.

1tph Dartford via Bexleyheath calling all stations.

3tph Sevenoaks via Grove Park calling London Bridge, Hither Green, Grove Park, Elmstead Woods, Chislehurst, Petts Wood, Orpington, Chelsfield, Knockholt, Dunton Green, Sevenoaks.

3tph Hayes via Catford Bridge calling all stations.

Peak Extras to Folkestone Central, Ramsgate, Dover Priory and Hastings.

London Charing Cross (Metro and Long Distance)

2tph Rainham via Sidcup calling Waterloo East, London Bridge, Hither Green, Sidcup, Crayford, Dartford, Greenhithe, Gravesend, Higham, Strood, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham and Rainham.

2tph Gravesend via Woolwich Arsenal calling Waterloo East, London Bridge, Lewisham, Blackheath, Charlton, Woolwich Arsenal, Abbey Wood, Slade Green, Dartford, Greenhithe and Gravesend.

2tph Gravesend via Bexleyheath calling all stations.

2tph Orpington calling all stations.

2tph Ramsgate calling at Waterloo East, London Bridge then non-stop to Sevenoaks then all stations to Ramsgate via Ashford International and Folkestone West.

3tph Tunbridge Wells via Sevenoaks calling at Waterloo East, London Bridge then non-stop to Chelsfield then Sevenoaks then all stations to Tunbridge Wells.

1tph Dover Priory calling at Waterloo East, London Bridge then non-stop to Sevenoaks then all stations to Dover Priory via Ashford International and Folkestone West.

3tph Hayes via Catford Bridge calling all stations.

London Blackfriars (Metro and Long Distance)

2tph Rainham via Bromley South calling at Elephant and Castle, Bromley South, St Mary Cray, Swanley Farningham Road, Longfield, Meopham, Sole Street, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham and Rainham (Thameslink Service)

2tph Beckenham Junction calling all stations.

1tph Ashford International calling Elephant and Castle then non-stop to Bromley South then all stations to Ashford International via Maidstone East.

London Victoria (Long Distance)

2tph Orpington calling at Brixton then all stations to Orpington.

2tph Dartford via Bexleyheath calling at Brixton then all stations to Dartford.

2tph Dover Priory via Maidstone East calling at Bromley South, Otford then all stations to Dover Priory.

1tph to Ramsgate via Gillingham calling Bromley South, Rochester then all stations to Ramsgate.

1tph to Sheerness-on-Sea via Gillingham calling at Bromley South, Rochester then all stations to Sheerness-on-Sea.

Others

3tph Bromley North shuttle.

2tph Sheerness-on-Sea shuttle.


All metro services run as 10 car made up of class 707s and refurbished 376s.

All long distance run as 10 car where needed made up of 375s and 377s with an order of 707s at IC spec to supplement.

Bromley North and Sheeness-on-Sea shuttle run as 2 car class 466 refurbished to the standard of the Class 321 Renatus units.

 

[Esker-pades]

I'm not an expert on this at all but I had a play based on the peak time service ran yesterday between 1700 and 1800. I may have missed things out but here goes:

St Pancras International (HS1)

1tph Dover Priory calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Ashford International, Folkestone West, Folkestone Central, Dover Priory

1tph Ramsgate via Gillingham calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne, Faversham, Whistable, Herne Bay, Birchington-on-Sea, Margate, Broadstairs, Dumpton Park and Ramsgate

1tph Ramsgate via Ashford International calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Ashford International, Folkestone West, Folkestone Central, Dover Priory, Martin Mill, Walmer, Deal, Sandwich and Ramsgate

1tph Maidstone West calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Gravesend, Stood, Snodland, Maidstone West

1tph Margate calling at calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Ashford International, Canterbury West, Ramsgate, Broadstairs, Margate

1tph Broadstairs via Gillingham calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Strood, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne, Faversham, Whistable, Herne Bay, Birchington-on-Sea, Margate, Broadstairs


London Cannon Street (Metro Only)

4tph Dartford via Greenwich calling all stations.

4tph London Cannon Street via Sidcup and Bexleyheath calling all stations.

4tph London Cannon Street via Bexleyheath and Sidcup calling all stations.

2tph Gravesend via Sidcup calling all stations.

1tph Dartford via Bexleyheath calling all stations.

3tph Sevenoaks via Grove Park calling London Bridge, Hither Green, Grove Park, Elmstead Woods, Chislehurst, Petts Wood, Orpington, Chelsfield, Knockholt, Dunton Green, Sevenoaks.

3tph Hayes via Catford Bridge calling all stations.

Peak Extras to Folkestone Central, Ramsgate, Dover Priory and Hastings.

London Charing Cross (Metro and Long Distance)

2tph Rainham via Sidcup calling Waterloo East, London Bridge, Hither Green, Sidcup, Crayford, Dartford, Greenhithe, Gravesend, Higham, Strood, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham and Rainham.

2tph Gravesend via Woolwich Arsenal calling Waterloo East, London Bridge, Lewisham, Blackheath, Charlton, Woolwich Arsenal, Abbey Wood, Slade Green, Dartford, Greenhithe and Gravesend.

2tph Gravesend via Bexleyheath calling all stations.

2tph Orpington calling all stations.

2tph Ramsgate calling at Waterloo East, London Bridge then non-stop to Sevenoaks then all stations to Ramsgate via Ashford International and Folkestone West.

3tph Tunbridge Wells via Sevenoaks calling at Waterloo East, London Bridge then non-stop to Chelsfield then Sevenoaks then all stations to Tunbridge Wells.

1tph Dover Priory calling at Waterloo East, London Bridge then non-stop to Sevenoaks then all stations to Dover Priory via Ashford International and Folkestone West.

3tph Hayes via Catford Bridge calling all stations.

London Blackfriars (Metro and Long Distance)

2tph Rainham via Bromley South calling at Elephant and Castle, Bromley South, St Mary Cray, Swanley Farningham Road, Longfield, Meopham, Sole Street, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham and Rainham (Thameslink Service)

2tph Beckenham Junction calling all stations.

1tph Ashford International calling Elephant and Castle then non-stop to Bromley South then all stations to Ashford International via Maidstone East.

London Victoria (Long Distance)

2tph Orpington calling at Brixton then all stations to Orpington.

2tph Dartford via Bexleyheath calling at Brixton then all stations to Dartford.

2tph Dover Priory via Maidstone East calling at Bromley South, Otford then all stations to Dover Priory.

1tph to Ramsgate via Gillingham calling Bromley South, Rochester then all stations to Ramsgate.

1tph to Sheerness-on-Sea via Gillingham calling at Bromley South, Rochester then all stations to Sheerness-on-Sea.

Others

3tph Bromley North shuttle.

2tph Sheerness-on-Sea shuttle.


All metro services run as 10 car made up of class 707s and refurbished 376s.

All long distance run as 10 car where needed made up of 375s and 377s with an order of 707s at IC spec to supplement.

Bromley North and Sheeness-on-Sea shuttle run as 2 car class 466 refurbished to the standard of the Class 321 Renatus units.

What's wrong with a Networker? I far prefer them to a 376 or any 700 derivative.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The Lewisham point is true. 4 of the 8 services via Sidcup go via Lewisham. I also have 10tph to Blackheath, of which 8 continue via Bexleyheath. At peak I have a train every 5 minutes on that line.

I never suggested 8tph from Lewisham to Victoria. I can't see what part of my original post made you think that.

I'm willing to budge on Orpington and Sevenoaks calls. As trains between Tonbridge and Ashford run with 10 and 20 minute gaps, I might make the first one faster, so that it is closer to an even 15, 15.

The reason for having a Paddock Wood to Tonbridge shuttle is to give the unit doing Strood-Tonbridge something to do for the 40 minutes it is otherwise sitting at Tonbridge. It also gives an even service every 10 minutes between Tonbridge and Paddock Wood.

I missed a conflicting move on the Charing Cross to Maidstone services, so I have canned them. Thanks for giving me a prod on that one.

I'm not finding paths in the current timetables, but creating an entirely new one from scratch.

The only reason Charing Cross to Bromley North exists as a service is that I needed to find a terminus for an extra 2 Lewisham trains per hour. It was a happy accident that it worked.
Details - Down:
The Bromley North service departs from the slow lines at Hither Green 1 minute after a down fast service has passed. That gives a 9 minute window before the next fast service in the down direction. No conflict.
In the other direction, the up fast service passes Hither Green at the same time that the down Bromley North service departs. That means it is well clear of the crossovers just before Grove Park by the time the Bromley North service needs it. As there is a 10 minute gap in fast services, it works.
Details - Up:
The Bromley North service departs Grove Park 4 minutes before the next up fast is due to pass. That means when the up fast is passing Grove Park, the up Bromley North is departing Hither Green.
The tightest timetabling is between the up Bromley North and the down fast services. The up Bromley North departs Grove Park 3 minutes before the down fast is due to pass Hither Green. It should be clear 2 minutes after it departs, which is 1 minute before the down fast passes Hither Green.

"I have" "I'm willing to budge"... Chill. You will, like me, be rewarded with a crap service in the new franchise and all of your modelling will be in vain...

 

[londonteacher]

What's wrong with a Networker? I far prefer them to a 376 or any 700 derivative.

Actually good point, they should be refurbished to the same standard as the class 321 Renatus units.

 

[Esker-pades]

"I have" "I'm willing to budge"... Chill. You will, like me, be rewarded with a crap service in the new franchise and all of your modelling will be in vain...

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as agressive in any way.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Staff
Drivers - 20% pay rise with heavy caveats
Platform staff at every station 24/7
DCO everywhere
LTSC at each depot
Station and depot cleaners internal only and located at all terminals
24/7 Operational support staff

Infrastructure
12 car platforms everywhere
CD/RD at all stations
Gravesend platform 0 renumbered to 1
Increased number of turnbacks
linespeed increases where possible
New sidings and depot at Sevenoaks


Routes
Gillingham / Sevenoaks via all routes to be all stations, all the time
No more rounders london and back only

Units
700s for metro
new units for mainline
scrap everything else

Franchise
25yr length
Zero subsidy
Full control over ticket price

Not sure why you need a 20% pay rise or indeed to DCO the entire lot, I'll assume your job!

LTSC absolutely right. I can't see why you wouldn't want a Foreman to book the boys and girls in, take delay reports (now they are doing away with fax machines), check people aren't drunk (I don't imply anything, I just can't believe booking on by phone is acceptable!).

Increased turnbacks... Interesting. Where would you put them? I would have to suggest amending Barnehurst's turn back to have another one at the London end; as well as having a London end turn back at somewhere like Abbey Wood and at Crayford. I remember there used to be one at Kidbrooke but they plain-lined that one so you couldn't even have a Dartford - Kidbrooke shuttle in engineering works so buses ran right through. Cheers...!

Not sure why you wouldn't want some rounders as they are a good use of capacity when Dartford is full. Not sure why you would want control of ticket prices handed over - that would be asking for trouble.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as agressive in any way.

It's not aggressive.

It's just taking things remarkably seriously when this is a rail forum...