ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[jingsmonty]

Any word on what the refurb set is up to this week?

I'd expect the Refurbished set to be going into passenger service within weeks....

 

[Stoney1979]

Any word on what the refurb set is up to this week?

There was a W head code movement from Craigentinny to Haymarket yesterday afternoon, so that may well be where it is now.

 

[swaldman]

Given recent posts here I had a moment of excitement at Haymarket just now when the train to Aberdeen was labelled as "This train has 5 coaches". Turned out to be a 170+158 combo, though
This particular 170 is reminding me once again that there's nothing so very wrong with them when they're not overcrowded - although the HSTs will obviously be a clear improvement.

 

[Chris225]

There was a W head code movement from Craigentinny to Haymarket yesterday afternoon, so that may well be where it is now.

It ran from Craigentinny round the Sub and onto Dundee this afternoon, was surprised to see it going past earlier on.

 

[Stoney1979]

This is a distinct possibility for the future (I believe Inverness will have 2 outbound/inbound HST services from the December timetable change), but traincrew training would be needed before any introduction of slam door stock. The only Conductors who are currently competent on slam door stock (I believe) are the Waverley Conductors who work the LHCS Fife Circle commuter train.

When would HST slam-door training have to start to be ready for the Dec timetable change? In other words, how long does the traincrew training take?

 

[47271]

We'd all prefer slam door HSTs to services cancelled due to a lack of stock, but if this happens and I were Scotrail I'd be on the case making sure that passengers understand that the truly dire GWR Standard coaches don't represent their permanent layouts.

Otherwise social media and The Scotsman will be on overdrive on 'sardine can conditions' straight away. I'd suggest displays in vestibules illustrating exactly how they expect them to look.

I'm no keener on 170s than anyone else on Highland Main Line services, but they do have a decent number of tables, and if I didn't know that I could easily find a home for my laptop on an HST in the future then I'd be pretty unimpressed.

It would be ironic if one type of unsuitable suburban stock used on Scotrail intercity services was replaced temporarily by an equally unsuitable high density type, and this made worse by an inadvertant lack of communication.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This particular 170 is reminding me once again that there's nothing so very wrong with them when they're not overcrowded - although the HSTs will obviously be a clear improvement.

I went on an XC 170 on Saturday and that reminded me that they aren't at all bad, really, apart from a few rattles and it being really rather tatty because XC can't be bothered looking after their rolling stock (any of it) properly.

 

[Highland37]

We'd all prefer slam door HSTs to services cancelled due to a lack of stock, but if this happens and I were Scotrail I'd be on the case making sure that passengers understand that the truly dire GWR Standard coaches don't represent their permanent layouts.

Otherwise social media and The Scotsman will be on overdrive on 'sardine can conditions' straight away. I'd suggest displays in vestibules illustrating exactly how they expect them to look.

I'm no keener on 170s than anyone else on Highland Main Line services, but they do have a decent number of tables, and if I didn't know that I could easily find a home for my laptop on an HST in the future then I'd be pretty unimpressed.

It would be ironic if one type of unsuitable suburban stock used on Scotrail intercity services was replaced temporarily by an equally unsuitable high density type, and this made worse by an inadvertant lack of communication.

Agreed. I'd rather keep the 170s until the HSTs are ready even though I don't like them that much. The Scotsman, along with the rest of the gutter press in Scotland (all of it), will make it sound terrible but less and less people are bothering to buy their papers thankfully. One thing is for sure, the traditional media will do their best to turn a success into a crisis.

 

[jingsmonty]

When would HST slam-door training have to start to be ready for the Dec timetable change? In other words, how long does the traincrew training take?

I honestly don't know! Haven't heard of any training starting in Inverness yet, though...

 

[najaB]

Haven't heard of any training starting in Inverness yet, though.

There most certainly have been Perth-Inverness driver training runs. I can't imagine that the guard training will take nearly as long as the driver training does.

 

[jingsmonty]

There most certainly have been Perth-Inverness driver training runs. I can't imagine that the guard training will take nearly as long as the driver training does.

Slam door v power door training doesn't have much impact on the driver training, but has big implications on rhe guard training (as well as train dispatchers - although the ttain dispatchers already dispatch the LNER HST, so not much of an issue).

The Guards, I'd imagine, will have separate training for slam door coaches - they are, in effect, 2 different types of rolling stock (as far as the doors go anyway).

 

[jingsmonty]

There most certainly have been Perth-Inverness driver training runs. I can't imagine that the guard training will take nearly as long as the driver training does.

Think the Inverness HST training train is running Today, if anyone is interested (1610 ex Inverness/ 1932 ex Perth), presume it's a move to swap sets with the Queen St set...I've done that move myself.

 

[najaB]

Engines running on the refurbished set, so it's likely leaving Dundee soon.

Edit: Hmm, only one power car actually so it might just be training.

 

[Callum Waring]

Anyone know the whereabouts of the refurbished set?

 

[najaB]

Anyone know the whereabouts of the refurbished set?

As of about six minutes ago it was parked in the Dundee carriage sidings. Walked past it on my way to work.

Engine on one power car was idling but there was still a 'Not to be moved' sign at the opposite end so a good chance it'll be there for a while yet.

 

[stuart]

One of the (many) problems with the 170 sets is that you never know which way around they are going to be. So if looking for a reserved seat in coach A, for example, is it going to be at the front or the back of the train? Not a trivial issue when boarding at a lightly used station (where dwell times are short) with heavy luggage.

Do we think they're going to be able to keep the HST sets in a consistent orientation, as with longer trains this problem can only get worse? My thoughts are that it's the running between Edinburgh and Glasgow that causes the inversion of the formation, and if the HST sets are running only from those termini to points north, I don't think there's anywhere they can get reversed, is there?

 

[Journeyman]

One of the (many) problems with the 170 sets is that you never know which way around they are going to be. So if looking for a reserved seat in coach A, for example, is it going to be at the front or the back of the train? Not a trivial issue when boarding at a lightly used station (where dwell times are short) with heavy luggage.

Do we think they're going to be able to keep the HST sets in a consistent orientation, as with longer trains this problem can only get worse? My thoughts are that it's the running between Edinburgh and Glasgow that causes the inversion of the formation, and if the HST sets are running only from those termini to points north, I don't think there's anywhere they can get reversed, is there?

I don't think it's going to be possible to keep them all the same way around. They're also going to operate Aberdeen to Inverness, so could end up doing Edinburgh - Aberdeen, Aberdeen - Inverness, Inverness - Glasgow on successive diagrams.

 

[marks87]

I don't think it's going to be possible to keep them all the same way around. They're also going to operate Aberdeen to Inverness, so could end up doing Edinburgh - Aberdeen, Aberdeen - Inverness, Inverness - Glasgow on successive diagrams.

That wouldn’t turn the set though. In your scenario, if it then ran from Glasgow to Aberdeen, the same power car would be at the front as when it originally went from Edinburgh to Aberdeen.

It would only be turned if it had to run to Edinburgh from Glasgow. Which might happen, to get to Haymarket granted.

As of about six minutes ago it was parked in the Dundee carriage sidings. Walked past it on my way to work.

Engine on one power car was idling but there was still a 'Not to be moved' sign at the opposite end so a good chance it'll be there for a while yet.

And it is indeed still there as of...well, another six minutes ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think it's going to be possible to keep them all the same way around. They're also going to operate Aberdeen to Inverness, so could end up doing Edinburgh - Aberdeen, Aberdeen - Inverness, Inverness - Glasgow on successive diagrams.

It wouldn't be a problem if they had the PIS working correctly and showing accurately what the formation is against relevant platform markers.

 

[47271]

I agree that there being no predictability on which way round a 170 will be is a significant passenger issue, and one that Scotrail showed no sign of wanting to address. I completely understand why the sets get back to front, but it's the lack of clear coach labelling, particularly since Abellio took over, that makes the situation far worse than it needs be. I'm tired of having to help confused passengers with seat reservations for Coach A but who are trying to sit in Coach C. It's the least frequent longest distance travellers who are most upset by this lazy and unnecessary muddle, which makes it worse still in my view.

The sets were built with the doors clearly labelled A,B and C and I'm pretty certain this survived until the Saltire refurb. You get paper labels on the windows once in a blue moon now. The only good reason for not having coaches permanently marked is if they're running 6-car and even then that was really only ever on the E&G where no reservations apply.

They need to up their game on this with the HSTs if they want to be taken seriously as an intercity operator.

 

[Highlandspring]

There’s a big stramash going on internally at the moment about not turning the 385/1s (to keep first class at the end of the train rather than the middle) so the subject is on the radar...

 

[jingsmonty]

One of the (many) problems with the 170 sets is that you never know which way around they are going to be. So if looking for a reserved seat in coach A, for example, is it going to be at the front or the back of the train? Not a trivial issue when boarding at a lightly used station (where dwell times are short) with heavy luggage.

Do we think they're going to be able to keep the HST sets in a consistent orientation, as with longer trains this problem can only get worse? My thoughts are that it's the running between Edinburgh and Glasgow that causes the inversion of the formation, and if the HST sets are running only from those termini to points north, I don't think there's anywhere they can get reversed, is there?

The HST training train has been turned up in Perth (for Inverness) the opposite way round more than once - I'm not sure if this is due to diagrammed moves specifically due to it being a training train & running in between passenger/freight trains, or is this something that would happen normally.

I can't see Scotrail making any effort to keep the formations facing in the same direction..I agree though, that it wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

[jingsmonty]

I agree that there being no predictability on which way round a 170 will be is a significant passenger issue, and one that Scotrail showed no sign of wanting to address. I completely understand why the sets get back to front, but it's the lack of clear coach labelling, particularly since Abellio took over, that makes the situation far worse than it needs be. I'm tired of having to help confused passengers with seat reservations for Coach A but who are trying to sit in Coach C. It's the least frequent longest distance travellers who are most upset by this lazy and unnecessary muddle, which makes it worse still in my view.

The sets were built with the doors clearly labelled A,B and C and I'm pretty certain this survived until the Saltire refurb. You get paper labels on the windows once in a blue moon now. The only good reason for not having coaches permanently marked is if they're running 6-car and even then that was really only ever on the E&G where no reservations apply.

They need to up their game on this with the HSTs if they want to be taken seriously as an intercity operator.

Passengers also get confused by the labels on the doors on a 170 as well (eg, doors A1, B1, etc, are the coaches, not the doors on each coach)...I don't blame them, if I didn't work on the railway, I'd get confused sometimes too!

 

[jingsmonty]

I don't think it's going to be possible to keep them all the same way around. They're also going to operate Aberdeen to Inverness, so could end up doing Edinburgh - Aberdeen, Aberdeen - Inverness, Inverness - Glasgow on successive diagrams.

That wouldn't change the direction...as they wouldn't then be going to Edinburgh Waverley from Glasgow Queen St. It wouldn't take much to have them facing the other way though - any out of course situation would do this.

Probably best not to bother - as long as they are clearly labelled (whoever suggested this being on the platform displays is spot on, this would help a lot). It would just be another operational headache and another potential source of passenger dissatisfaction.

Personally, I think the passengers will love 'em (particularly HML passengers)!

 

[Stoney1979]

That wouldn't change the direction...as they wouldn't then be going to Edinburgh Waverley from Glasgow Queen St. It wouldn't take much to have them facing the other way though - any out of course situation would do this.

Probably best not to bother - as long as they are clearly labelled (whoever suggested this being on the platform displays is spot on, this would help a lot). It would just be another operational headache and another potential source of passenger dissatisfaction.

Personally, I think the passengers will love 'em (particularly HML passengers)!

Agreed, ideally it would be consistent every time, but is it worth the logistical headache of doing that? As long as they are clearly signed, I doubt your average punter will want or expect any more.

It could be one of the things to iron out and improve over time, once everyone (meaning everyone from SR staff to passengers) gets used to them.

 

[jingsmonty]

Agreed, ideally it would be consistent every time, but is it worth the logistical headache of doing that? As long as they are clearly signed, I doubt your average punter will want or expect any more.

It could be one of the things to iron out and improve over time, once everyone (meaning everyone from SR staff to passengers) gets used to them.

Yeah, my thoughts too - it's not something that I'd think is particularly important anyway. There's plenty of other things for Scotrail to concentrate on getting right for the HSTs...

 

[route101]

Do we think that they will ever run in service between Edinburgh and Glasgow?

 

[gingertom]

Do we think that they will ever run in service between Edinburgh and Glasgow?

IMHO there will be a couple of revenue-earning services early and late in the day instead of empty stock moves to/from Haymarket for maintenance.

 

[ScotTrains]

One of the (many) problems with the 170 sets is that you never know which way around they are going to be.

As the First Class/buffet coach will only be at one end on the HSTs, It should be much easier to work out the coach letters, assuming First Class is always coach A or whatever.

 

[Highlandspring]

The coaches also have the traditional yellow/red stripe at cantrail level on the first class/buffet vehicle, which will aid identification.