ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[superalbs]

Same as Voyagers and Pendolinos, where they seem to not work more often than they work. Mind you Voyagers are a late 1990s design, and Pendolinos a late 1990s/early 2000s one - one would hope technology had improved a bit since then!

XC Voyager screens are certainly a lot more reliable than the GWR 800 ones. Sometimes, the 800 reservations seem to turn on and off at various points throughout the journey, that's utter chaos.

 

[yorkie]

This thread is to discuss Scotrail HST introduction. Please create a new thread (or use an existing one) if you wish to discuss anything else. Thanks

 

[swaldman]

Re Mk 3 ride at 125mph: IM(limited)E it's consistently better than Mk 4s, which has been the natural comparison for them for decades. This may be the reason that people view them as so good.

For Scotrail, though, the relevant question is how a Mk 3 at 100mph or less compares with a 170, and my experience there is that it's a vast improvement - partly in ride quality, and partly in quietness. The only exception is when the HST sets have wheelslip problems in the winter, which can make things a tad jarring as they get going... hopefully this will be less of an issue with shorter trains.

 

[_toommm_]

Re Mk 3 ride at 125mph: IM(limited)E it's consistently better than Mk 4s, which has been the natural comparison for them for decades. This may be the reason that people view them as so good.

For Scotrail, though, the relevant question is how a Mk 3 at 100mph or less compares with a 170, and my experience there is that it's a vast improvement - partly in ride quality, and partly in quietness. The only exception is when the HST sets have wheelslip problems in the winter, which can make things a tad jarring as they get going... hopefully this will be less of an issue with shorter trains.

The only real problem with the refurbished sets I can envisage is the doors. While they haven't proved to be problematic yet, they are, in a way, untested technology, and could be a source for potential niggles. Other than that, the trains themselves do look fairly new, and I doubt an average passenger would realise the coaches used to be slam doors, nor are going on/gone past 40 years old.

 

[ScotTrains]

First class on LNER and Virgin have anti slip beermats and placemats to stop drinks and plates from spilling. Hopefully Scotrail will have the same.

 

[_toommm_]

First class on LNER and Virgin have anti slip beermats and placemats to stop drinks and plates from spilling. Hopefully Scotrail will have the same.

It didn't when I travelled First Class last year! Assuming you mean the at seat tables.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only real problem with the refurbished sets I can envisage is the doors. While they haven't proved to be problematic yet, they are, in a way, untested technology, and could be a source for potential niggles. Other than that, the trains themselves do look fairly new, and I doubt an average passenger would realise the coaches used to be slam doors, nor are going on/gone past 40 years old.

I think sliding doors are a *fairly* well tested railway technology

(Yes, I know these ones are quite new, but really?)

 

[Journeyman]

First class on LNER and Virgin have anti slip beermats and placemats to stop drinks and plates from spilling. Hopefully Scotrail will have the same.

Doesn't do much good when the ride is bad enough to launch full mugs of coffee into the air.

 

[Journeyman]

I think sliding doors are a *fairly* well tested railway technology

(Yes, I know these ones are quite new, but really?)

I think the biggest issue here is that installation has been very problematic, as there were so many unexpected issues found during the upgrade. No two vehicles were exactly alike, due to many mods being made over their lifespan and possibly differences existing since construction. I can foresee problems if the bodies distort/flex too much.

 

[kje7812]

I think the biggest issue here is that installation has been very problematic, as there were so many unexpected issues found during the upgrade. No two vehicles were exactly alike, due to many mods being made over their lifespan and possibly differences existing since construction. I can foresee problems if the bodies distort/flex too much.

And how good the seals will be in winter...

 

[jingsmonty]

The only real problem with the refurbished sets I can envisage is the doors. While they haven't proved to be problematic yet, they are, in a way, untested technology, and could be a source for potential niggles. Other than that, the trains themselves do look fairly new, and I doubt an average passenger would realise the coaches used to be slam doors, nor are going on/gone past 40 years old.

I've read that the door design is a pretty reliable and simple one - probably one of the reasons that Scotrail, X Country & GWR didn't go for a 'Chiltern' style plug door (as well as cost & time considerations) - the Mk3s are, essentially, hand built & each one is slightly different, think the plug doors were a bit of a nightmare to fit! I'd imagine a sliding door would be a lot easier & can see how it should be more reliable too.

The one area I could see the power doors being an issue is the electrical interlocking with the Power Car control - there is a traction interlock which prevents power being taken if door interlock isn't achieved. I could see this being a potential issue. This wouldn't strand a set (there's a traction interlock cut out switch in the power cars), but would, I imagine, result in a train being cancelled/short terminated.

 

[Journeyman]

The one area I could see the power doors being an issue is the electrical interlocking with the Power Car control - there is a traction interlock which prevents power being taken if door interlock isn't achieved. I could see this being a potential issue. This wouldn't strand a set (there's a traction interlock cut out switch in the power cars), but would, I imagine, result in a train being cancelled/short terminated.

I take it the slam-door central locking system doesn't have a traction interlock, then?

 

[43096]

I take it the slam-door central locking system doesn't have a traction interlock, then?

No, it doesn’t.

 

[Journeyman]

No, it doesn’t.

Didn't think so. I've got some knowledge of it on loco-hauled stock, and it's pretty basic - it certainly can't detect whether doors are open or closed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And how good the seals will be in winter...

I'd venture "far better than a droplight left open as they mostly were".

 

[43096]

Didn't think so. I've got some knowledge of it on loco-hauled stock, and it's pretty basic - it certainly can't detect whether doors are open or closed.

Correct. It was a “belt and braces” BR solution for doors opening at speed (seem to recall Wolverton was one place mentioned?). As such it had to be cheap and simple, as BR was never exactly over funded.

 

[_toommm_]

I take it the slam-door central locking system doesn't have a traction interlock, then?

The external hazard lights will all go out once the guard presses 'lock' (or something to that effect) on the door panel, but it doesn't have an interlock circuit so doors could be left on the catch I.e. partially open. Most Correction: All HST sets now have Central Door Locking, which is a bolt to ensure the door can't be opened at high speed, but this isn't 100% failsafe still, and doors can still be opened as far as the bolt (granted, this isn't very far, but it can still be alarming if you don't expect it!)

 

[43096]

The external hazard lights will all go out once the guard presses 'lock' (or something to that effect) on the door panel, but it doesn't have an interlock circuit so doors could be left on the catch I.e. partially open. Most HST sets now have Central Door Locking, which is a bolt to ensure the door can't be opened at high speed, but this isn't 100% failsafe still, and doors can still be opened as far as the bolt (granted, this isn't very far, but it can still be alarming if you don't expect it!)

All HST sets (and indeed all LHCS Mark 3s and most Mark 2DEF) have central door locking and have done for well over 20 years. The external orange hazard light was added when it was fitted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All HST sets (and indeed all LHCS Mark 3s and most Mark 2DEF) have central door locking and have done for well over 20 years. The external orange hazard light was added when it was fitted.

Indeed, it was also the subject of a poster campaign entitled "It's fruitless if it's not orange", which is really quite clever wording.

 

[380101]

The only real problem with the refurbished sets I can envisage is the doors. While they haven't proved to be problematic yet, they are, in a way, untested technology, and could be a source for potential niggles. Other than that, the trains themselves do look fairly new, and I doubt an average passenger would realise the coaches used to be slam doors, nor are going on/gone past 40 years old.

The sliding door system that has been fitted is a well used system on Canadian and US trains. So it'll have been well tested i imagine!

 

[jingsmonty]

All HST sets (and indeed all LHCS Mark 3s and most Mark 2DEF) have central door locking and have done for well over 20 years. The external orange hazard light was added when it was fitted.

I don't have much knowledge of LHCS but I don't think the CDL on these coaches has any sort of electrical interlock - as others have said, it's purely to prevent the doors opening on the move & has no interlock with traction power.

 

[Journeyman]

The sliding door system that has been fitted is a well used system on Canadian and US trains. So it'll have been well tested i imagine!

Presumably in quite extreme conditions, too.

 

[jingsmonty]

It's supposed to be similar to the type of doors on a Class 156...

 

[Stoney1979]

It's supposed to be similar to the type of doors on a Class 156...

I've looked at the pictures of the new doors but with my untrained and un-expert eye it's hard to tell how they operate - do they slide directly sideways and "disappear" into the body of the carriage, or pop out and then move sideways?

 

[kje7812]

I've looked at the pictures of the new doors but with my untrained and un-expert eye it's hard to tell how they operate - do they slide directly sideways and "disappear" into the body of the carriage, or pop out and then move sideways?

Into the body of carriage:

 

[Stoney1979]

Into the body of carriage:

Thanks! Interesting to see.

 

[43096]

I don't have much knowledge of LHCS but I don't think the CDL on these coaches has any sort of electrical interlock - as others have said, it's purely to prevent the doors opening on the move & has no interlock with traction power.

CDL system on LHCS is the same as HST stock - there's no traction or brake interlock.

 

[gsnedders]

I've looked at the pictures of the new doors but with my untrained and un-expert eye it's hard to tell how they operate - do they slide directly sideways and "disappear" into the body of the carriage, or pop out and then move sideways?

This is what's normally meant by a "sliding door" (directly sidewise) v. a "plug door" (which pops out, and in this country mostly technically isn't actually a plug door as you'd see in a pressurised vehicle), for reference.

 

[jingsmonty]

This is what's normally meant by a "sliding door" (directly sidewise) v. a "plug door" (which pops out, and in this country mostly technically isn't actually a plug door as you'd see in a pressurised vehicle), for reference.

They just slide into an internal pocket - the 'Chiltern' type plug doors plug out & over. This looks like a more reliable, cheaper & simpler (if less aesthetically pleasing) design.

 

[Stoney1979]

This is what's normally meant by a "sliding door" (directly sidewise) v. a "plug door" (which pops out, and in this country mostly technically isn't actually a plug door as you'd see in a pressurised vehicle), for reference.

Thanks for the info.