ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Stoney1979]

I see SR have officially mentioned the "Trigger's Broom" analogy on one of the Twitter feeds....

ScotRail‏Verified account @ScotRail Aug 19
Replying to @DaveFleming68 @trafficscotland
Much like triggers broom, parts replaced throughout the life of the train. They'll allow us to reintroduce a true inter-city network between our seven cities. More seats, better facilities and faster journeys. #Inter7City. ^CT

3 replies . 2 retweets 19 likes

 

[Callum Waring]

Is there any possibility that the refurbished set has left Dundee? RTT is showing a 'freight service' halling 324 tonnes (normally how the HST's are weighed in when not confirmed as HST's), it's registerd for a max of 100mph and heading down to craigentiny right now. 531J

 

[jingsmonty]

I see SR have officially mentioned the "Trigger's Broom" analogy on one of the Twitter feeds....

ScotRail‏Verified account @ScotRail Aug 19
Replying to @DaveFleming68 @trafficscotland
Much like triggers broom, parts replaced throughout the life of the train. They'll allow us to reintroduce a true inter-city network between our seven cities. More seats, better facilities and faster journeys. #Inter7City. ^CT

3 replies . 2 retweets 19 likes

Love it! Don't know who said it 1st on here about "trigger's broom", but it's absolutely spot on!

 

[jingsmonty]

Is there any possibility that the refurbished set has left Dundee? RTT is showing a 'freight service' halling 324 tonnes (normally how the HST's are weighed in when not confirmed as HST's), it's registerd for a max of 100mph and heading down to craigentiny right now. 531J

Very possibly - some of the training trains have been running under a class 3 headcode

 

[Callum Waring]

Very possibly - some of the training trains have been running under a class 3 headcode

thats me getting the camera ready. hopefully i can get close enough to get a good shot!

 

[Callum Waring]

For anyone who’s curious about the HST’s where about, RTT isn’t updating it’s progress. Here it is passing Cupar on its way the craigentiny at 18:54

 

[Stoney1979]

Love it! Don't know who said it 1st on here about "trigger's broom", but it's absolutely spot on!

 

[jopsuk]

I see SR have officially mentioned the "Trigger's Broom" analogy on one of the Twitter feeds....

ScotRail‏Verified account @ScotRail Aug 19
Replying to @DaveFleming68 @trafficscotland
Much like triggers broom, parts replaced throughout the life of the train. They'll allow us to reintroduce a true inter-city network between our seven cities. More seats, better facilities and faster journeys. #Inter7City. ^CT

3 replies . 2 retweets 19 likes

but the point with Trigger's Broom is that every single part has been replaced. That's not the case with the HSTs (still looking forward to full fleet deployment)

 

[Northhighland]

Love it! Don't know who said it 1st on here about "trigger's broom", but it's absolutely spot on!

Would be an excellent analogy if it were true. This is clearly not the case. Instead of pretending we are getting something as good as new be better to tell the truth.

 

[jingsmonty]

Would be an excellent analogy if it were true. This is clearly not the case. Instead of pretending we are getting something as good as new be better to tell the truth.

The main point is that the engines are relatively new & modern...which is a pretty big part of a Power car...also the Power Cars have been stripped back, bodywork-wise (for any corrosion repairs). Same goes for the coaches - I'd think that a tanked toilet/power door Mk3 will be the equal (& probably, imho, better than) of any modern coach..

 

[jingsmonty]

Would be an excellent analogy if it were true. This is clearly not the case. Instead of pretending we are getting something as good as new be better to tell the truth.

To be fair, your point is perfectly valid - but I don't think Scotrail are claiming that the HSTs are 'new', or 'as good as new' (maybe they did at the start, but not now) - the term I have seen used mostly is "fully refurbished iconic HST", which is perfectly accurate, I think (if a bit "marketing-speak").

 

[Stoney1979]

Would be an excellent analogy if it were true. This is clearly not the case. Instead of pretending we are getting something as good as new be better to tell the truth.

Indeed, no-one is claiming they are all-new, or even as good as new (whatever that actually means). The general point of the analogy is that the "40 year old cast off trains" label - taking "train" as the whole thing - patently isn't valid either.

 

[jingsmonty]

Indeed, no-one is claiming they are all-new, or even as good as new (whatever that actually means). The general point of the analogy is that the "40 year old cast off trains" label - taking "train" as the whole thing - patently isn't valid either.

Quite....you could always argue that Scotland has waited over 20 Years for these trains (given that there was a plan to cascade them to Scotrail internal express services in the 1980s)..

 

[AndrewE]

Quite....you could always argue that Scotland has waited over 20 Years for these trains (given that there was a plan to cascade them to Scotrail internal express services in the 1980s)..

Over 30 years actually! I think this is yet another argument for one National UK Railway that can manage the cascading of rolling stock as successive routes get upgraded. Forget "Franchise commitments" or "commercially sensitive" details of contracts, or contracts between franchises and rolling stock owners: it is a major part of UK infrastructure and the present shambles (and the ossification / fossilisation it brings) would make you laugh if you weren't already crying. We are told repeatedly that something which is urgently needed can't happen because "the next franchise isn't going to be let for 2 years" - and then there is a 2 or 3 year delay while they work out how to do it - or fabricate their excuses for reneging on the deal (e.g. the TPE loco-hauled commitment.)
Bring back British Rail!

 

[43096]

Quite....you could always argue that Scotland has waited over 20 Years for these trains (given that there was a plan to cascade them to Scotrail internal express services in the 1980s)..

I'm never quite sure where these theories came from - same applies to the Waterloo-Exeter "plan". The reality is that the InterCity sector was never going to release any of its premier fleet to NSE or Provincial whilst it still had both passenger growth and geriatric Mark 2 stock operating on Cross-Country.

 

[Northhighland]

I think when you use the term “fully refurbished” and then have corroded pipes causing failures then you are on unfortunate ground.

Best way of dealing with this to use reliability figures and just stick to the truth.

No hard sell is needed to the travelling public. They want these trains and will put up with a wee bit of reliability problems in return for a much better service.

I think there is a danger of over egging the refurb and creating more a problem than there ever need be.

 

[BRX]

I'm never quite sure where these theories came from - same applies to the Waterloo-Exeter "plan". The reality is that the InterCity sector was never going to release any of its premier fleet to NSE or Provincial whilst it still had both passenger growth and geriatric Mark 2 stock operating on Cross-Country.

This is from an 'intercity today' brochure that I happened to come across the other day.

 

[43096]

This is from an 'intercity today' brochure that I happened to come across the other day.

Good find!

 

[Stoney1979]

I think when you use the term “fully refurbished” and then have corroded pipes causing failures then you are on unfortunate ground.

Best way of dealing with this to use reliability figures and just stick to the truth.

No hard sell is needed to the travelling public. They want these trains and will put up with a wee bit of reliability problems in return for a much better service.

I think there is a danger of over egging the refurb and creating more a problem than there ever need be.

Certainly agree there - the only truth will be when it all happens and it's been going for at least 6 months. Then we can begin to assess what it looks like. However, the caution I have is that any HST failures will be leapt upon by those against them in the first place for whatever reason. Which harks back to an earlier post here - how can anyone truly objectively measure the success, or otherwise, of the HST intro? 170s/158s etc no doubt fail somewhere or other on a daily basis, or maybe they don't, and/or people have nice/miserable journeys on them - but either way, none of this is recorded or makes the news. So.….what is the HST intro success/failure to be compared to? How will it be measured?

 

[Stoney1979]

As a recent example, some have leapt upon the failure of the HST training train iirc somewhere between Perth and Dundee a few weeks ago. That sort of event gets noticed, makes the news, and generates a reaction and opinions. However, all other training train runs that work absolutely fine and go without a hitch are nowhere to be seen.

 

[jingsmonty]

I'm never quite sure where these theories came from - same applies to the Waterloo-Exeter "plan". The reality is that the InterCity sector was never going to release any of its premier fleet to NSE or Provincial whilst it still had both passenger growth and geriatric Mark 2 stock operating on Cross-Country.

This was stated in a staff newsletter in 1984/85 by Chris Green, when he was BR Scottish Region General Manager (or Scotrail, as he called it....). There's a photo of it in the excellent book 'The Regional Railways story'. He specifically referred to cascaded HST stock on Scotrail routes.

This obviously predated the introduction of more up to date DMUs, this being pre-sprinter days....we ended up with Class 158s instead - bit ironic now that we are finally getting HSTs!

 

[Northhighland]

Certainly agree there - the only truth will be when it all happens and it's been going for at least 6 months. Then we can begin to assess what it looks like. However, the caution I have is that any HST failures will be leapt upon by those against them in the first place for whatever reason. Which harks back to an earlier post here - how can anyone truly objectively measure the success, or otherwise, of the HST intro? 170s/158s etc no doubt fail somewhere or other on a daily basis, or maybe they don't, and/or people have nice/miserable journeys on them - but either way, none of this is recorded or makes the news. So.….what is the HST intro success/failure to be compared to? How will it be measured?

Mostly the travelling public will decide if this is a success or not. Measured by public opinion and passenger numbers. I think the threat is the time it takes to get the service running. If it is going to take another two years then that will not go down well if some journeys are HST and some aren’t.

 

[43096]

This was stated in a staff newsletter in 1984/85 by Chris Green, when he was BR Scottish Region General Manager (or Scotrail, as he called it....). There's a photo of it in the excellent book 'The Regional Railways story'. He specifically referred to cascaded HST stock on Scotrail routes.

As I said, Provincial sector might have wanted them, but there was never any real prospect of InterCity letting go. 1984 was not long after BR had abandoned any hope of getting authorisation for any more HSTs - the original plan for which included 30 sets for routes like Trans-Pennine and ScotRail Express - so it was pretty obviously wishful thinking on Chris Green’s part.

 

[BRX]

Was reading an article from the time of their introduction, about the 158s. Two things it mentioned as features: seats lining up with windows, and quiet vibration free interiors...

 

[jingsmonty]

As I said, Provincial sector might have wanted them, but there was never any real prospect of InterCity letting go. 1984 was not long after BR had abandoned any hope of getting authorisation for any more HSTs - the original plan for which included 30 sets for routes like Trans-Pennine and ScotRail Express - so it was pretty obviously wishful thinking on Chris Green’s part.

Well, it's happening now - just another 20 odd Years late!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was reading an article from the time of their introduction, about the 158s. Two things it mentioned as features: seats lining up with windows, and quiet vibration free interiors...

In the original layout the seats do all align with the windows, and 158s aren't too bad for vibration, it's more of a relaxing whine.

 

[Journeyman]

Further to what all the defenders of HSTs have been waffling on about, I'm currently on an LNER HST, in Coach M next to the power car, and the ride is *absolutely bloody awful*. The suspension is bouncing all over the place, pulling away was jerky and shuddery, and there's incessant squeaking and rattling from the gangway connections that is extremely grating, far more so than the constant but not particularly loud noise from underfloor engines in modern trains.

The EMT 222 I was on earlier was vastly superior.

 

[Paul Kerr]

Further to what all the defenders of HSTs have been waffling on about, I'm currently on an LNER HST, in Coach M next to the power car, and the ride is *absolutely bloody awful*. The suspension is bouncing all over the place, pulling away was jerky and shuddery, and there's incessant squeaking and rattling from the gangway connections that is extremely grating, far more so than the constant but not particularly loud noise from underfloor engines in modern trains.

The EMT 222 I was on earlier was vastly superior.

Excuse me sir, but I do not waffle about anything. I don't know what your beef is with the HSTs but the ship has sailed. We'll all find data points to support our point of view, but at this point it's irrelevant... Whether you like it or not, we are getting the HSTs, period. If the reliability of the ex-GWR power cars is an issue going forward, I agree you will have a point. Until then can we please just drop this and agree to differ?

 

[Journeyman]

Excuse me sir, but I do not waffle about anything. I don't know what your beef is with the HSTs but the ship has sailed. We'll all find data points to support our point of view, but at this point it's irrelevant... Whether you like it or not, we are getting the HSTs, period. If the reliability of the ex-GWR power cars is an issue going forward, I agree you will have a point. Until then can we please just drop this and agree to differ?

Well, the people opposite me were very unhappy and were complaining to the staff, who had to apologise about the "old train".

My point - a perfectly valid one, after my glass jumped off the table twice and made a mess - is that the HST is a bad choice.

 

[Clansman]

Anyone who knows the quality of infrastructure along the routes the HSTs will operate on up here will know all too well that no rolling stock, both old, refurbished, or brand spanking new, will make any difference to the overall ride quality.

Usan and Carmont, I'm looking at you.