ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Journeyman]

No, it's not. They are the Grammer IC3000s that GWR already had, just at a lower density spacing with more tables and new seat covers.

I'm not a fan of that seat at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not a fan of that seat at all.

They do seem to be a bit Marmite. Personally I really like them. But each to their own.

 

[Journeyman]

They do seem to be a bit Marmite. Personally I really like them. But each to their own.

I think the backs are far too high, which makes sitting in them feel quite claustrophobic. Might be improved by the lower density, though - I hope so, because I usually choose airline seats unless I'm travelling in a group.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the backs are far too high, which makes sitting in them feel quite claustrophobic. Might be improved by the lower density, though - I hope so, because I usually choose airline seats unless I'm travelling in a group.

That is a downside, but I'll accept that because they have a headrest on which I can rest my head rather than the back of my shoulders (which is the issue with the Class 800 seat; I don't unlike many mind hard seats).

 

[jingsmonty]

I'm not a fan of that seat at all.

Me neither - the ones fitted to the Scotrail Class 158s are awful - the pitch is all wrong & too high. Strangely enough, I travelled from Paddington to St Austell a few years ago on a GWR HST & actually didn't mind them as much (an airline seat too...) - not exactly comfortable, but the pitch seemed to be better (eg, my legs weren't pointing to the floor & I wasn't sitting in the 'crash position').

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Scotrail were recushioning the Grammer IC3000s for the HSTs, so maybe they won't be too bad. Personally, I think the seats are the only good thing about a Scotrail Class 170, but, as you said, each to their own!

 

[jingsmonty]

I'll put you out of your misery (or into it), then - they have poor window alignment and the same awful seats as the Class 800. So no, they won't, not even close.

Nothing of course stopping ScotRail ordering a version with an interior without those issues, though.

I read an article about the TPE Mk5s & they didn't look overly impressive to me....I will have to try out the Class 801s when LNER start using them on the Highland Chieftain...who knows, if they are as bad as you say, maybe Scotrail will gain some passenger traffic from LNER passenger travelling to the Central Belt!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I read an article about the TPE Mk5s & they didn't look overly impressive to me....I will have to try out the Class 801s when LNER start using them on the Highland Chieftain...who knows, if they are as bad as you say, maybe Scotrail will gain some passenger traffic from LNER passenger travelling to the Central Belt!!

The EMUs for the WCML look a lot better than the LHCS - longer vehicles, bigger windows and full alignment, even if they do have the same rubbish seats.

 

[GrimShady]

I'll put you out of your misery (or into it), then - they have poor window alignment and the same awful seats as the Class 800. So no, they won't, not even close.

Nothing of course stopping ScotRail ordering a version with an interior without those issues, though.

Very disappointing!

 

[43096]

As others have said, if you've got the most comfortable train in the world, it's not a lot of good if it breaks down regularly - and the GWR fleet reliability is appalling. If ScotRail are doing as little as they can get away with to the power cars, how is that reliability going to magically improve?

Firstly, most of the faults with GWR ones are minor - remember a failure for the stats is triggered by a 3min delay - which implies to me a lack of focus by the depots on clearing minor faults (“no fault found” rather than “fault not found”). Second, every GWR fleet is appalling, not just HSTs: they operate the worst performing 150s, 158s, Electrostars and HSTs in the country - that says something about GWR’s train maintenance as a whole. Third, if ScotRail are getting staff from Craigentinny then that is good news: the East Coast fleet is at the opposite end of the reliability scale from GWR.

 

[Mollman]

It absolutely makes my mind boggle that presumably rational and intelligent people take leave of their senses when it comes to the railway. Do they imagine If they'd leased a car on a four year deal and after a couple of weeks using it, they see a nicer car of the same make and model on the forecourt, strolled in, chucked down the keys and said 'I want that one now' how much shrift do they think they'd get?

Except that if the car you were leasing was highly unreliable you might return to the show room and ask to swap it for a more reliable model.

 

[jingsmonty]

Except that if the car you were leasing was highly unreliable you might return to the show room and ask to swap it for a more reliable model.

Ah, but would you be willing to wait a Year or 2 and pay through the nose for it....

 

[gsnedders]

Indeed. The Franchise spec was silent on engine positioning but talked about quiet saloons, door - saloon separation, seat window alignment, toilet odour avoidance etc.

Abellio chose HST as the best way to deliver that "posh trains" spec. Other options could also have worked.

What were the noise-level requirements for the saloons? How did they compare with the noise-level requirements in the IEP spec?

 

[AndrewE]

What were the noise-level requirements for the saloons? How did they compare with the noise-level requirements in the IEP spec?

If there was a vibration spec as well as a noise one then I imagine we wouldn't now be saddled with Voyagers!

 

[Stoney1979]

It will be interesting to see how much of a fanfare, or otherwise, SR make of the first operational HST service in the coming weeks.

It could go either way between quietly slipping the first one into service and waiting to see what happens operationally, and what the public reaction is, vs. a big PR hoo-ha about "this is the shape of things to come, the best we've ever had" etc. etc.

The latter approach carries a significant risk that, if there are problems, then it's fun-time for the naysayers. The former, assuming all goes well, would be a missed positive-PR opportunity....

 

[route:oxford]

Not the 'man in the street' but close. My uni-student daughter took the train from Edinburgh to Dundee for the weekend. She remarked that on the way back she got a 'posh train'. I suspect she caught a 158/170 one way and a VTEC HST the other. I wonder which was the 'posh train' ; I suspect it was the 40 year old scrap metal on wheels.

A "posh" train - with manual doors and windows?

More likely to be an XC Voyager surely? Big windows, electronic displays...

 

[Domh245]

If there was a vibration spec as well as a noise one then I imagine we wouldn't now be saddled with Voyagers!

Any specification like that will be specific to a tender, rather than a standard thing. Indeed, as has been pointed out many times on the forum, a large number of points in the IEP train technical specification were very much a "don't build another voyager" requirement.

 

[Stoney1979]

Not the 'man in the street' but close. My uni-student daughter took the train from Edinburgh to Dundee for the weekend. She remarked that on the way back she got a 'posh train'. I suspect she caught a 158/170 one way and a VTEC HST the other. I wonder which was the 'posh train' ; I suspect it was the 40 year old scrap metal on wheels.

Are you able to find out when she travelled? It would be very interesting, just as a snapshot, to find out what the "posh train" was.

 

[Paul Kerr]

Only enthusiasts seem to care about this, and comparing an 800/
802 to a knackered first-generation unit is ridiculous.

Don't agree with you here. As I have mentioned before, the 800/802 will probably be fine for the first 2-3 years but as high RPM components start to wear, the vibration and noise from under the floor become more noticeable and in the case of the 170s was downright annoying. It's happened with every DMU that's been built, whether it be a 1950's first generation unit, a 156, a 158, a 170, a 180, a Voyager or an Irish IC 22000 unit. The list goes on. Anyway time will tell once the new bimodes age a few years, but based on previous experience, I'm not anticipating they will fare any better. I'll quite happily eat my words if I'm proved wrong.

 

[Northhighland]

I think this is a point well worth reiterating...passengers LIKE the HST & personally, I think this was the most cost effective way & certainly the quickest (on paper, anyway...) of giving Scotrail the true InterCity service we have been crying out for years for!

Yes, the project has had issues, but what project doesn't? I give you the fiasco with the Class 385s & the curved windscreens as a good example. I'd agree that a lot of the infrasturcture stuff (such as stabling points) hasn't been thought through properly.

But, they are here now - how nuch money would be wasted & how much longer would Scotland be saddled with a 2nd rate train service if the HST was abandoned now?

Reliability is my main concern too - the points raised about the GWR power cars is perfectly valid. I just think they were the 1st available...who knows, it may be possible to supplant them with, for example, some ex LNER ones later on? It should also be remembered that the power cars will be much less intensivy used in Scotland - they were hammering about GWR at 125mph for long stretches with 8 coaches....100mph & 4/5 coaches will be like a semi retirement! Speaking as someone who's driven the training train, I can couch that you spend a lot of time coasting & not a huge amount at full throttle (it feels like it will take off at times!).

As an aside, it was always the plan back in BR days for the HST to be cascaded to 'secondary routes' - it's a reflection on just how good they are that this is only happening 20+ years later than planned!

GWR are using them as a fast, powerful & high quality 'inter regional' DEMU now as well(the 'Castle' class) in the same way as Scotrail will be doing.

The point about the Highland Chieftan is obvious to anyone in Inverness station when the train leaves or arrives. People certainly plan their journeys around these services. Same in Aberdeen. Sao the passengers don't care isn't true.

The point you make about semi-retirement I don't agree with. The speed they operate at and the number off hours makes no difference to corroded pipework etc, in fact less operation may make that worse. However the public will put up with a bit of unreliability for a better service. And a seat.

 

[Northhighland]

Are you able to find out when she travelled? It would be very interesting, just as a snapshot, to find out what the "posh train" was.

My daughter spent 4 years at Uni in glasgow travelling up and down to Inverness regularly. She would always plan her trip around the long train as she called it. She knows nothing about trains but said it was far quieter, more comfortable generally less stressful.

 

[Mordac]

Don't agree with you here. As I have mentioned before, the 800/802 will probably be fine for the first 2-3 years but as high RPM components start to wear, the vibration and noise from under the floor become more noticeable and in the case of the 170s was downright annoying. It's happened with every DMU that's been built, whether it be a 1950's first generation unit, a 156, a 158, a 170, a 180, a Voyager or an Irish IC 22000 unit. The list goes on. Anyway time will tell once the new bimodes age a few years, but based on previous experience, I'm not anticipating they will fare any better. I'll quite happily eat my words if I'm proved wrong.

The NIR class 3000s have been around for a while and they have very few vibrations.

 

[mcmad]

shock, people prefer a quicker train with 9 coaches to a slower one with 3. Think you're over reaching just a little.

Wait until they've been in squadron service for say 6 months then this can perhaps be settled, until then its just going round in circles.

 

[InOban]

On the contrary, North Highlands daughter chose to take a slightly slower route involving a change at Perth than to take either the earlier or later through trains from Glasgow.

 

[Stoney1979]

shock, people prefer a quicker train with 9 coaches to a slower one with 3. Think you're over reaching just a little.

Wait until they've been in squadron service for say 6 months then this can perhaps be settled, until then its just going round in circles.

Isn't that the whole point of this debate though? That, as long as they are reliable and compared to what we have now, the HST intro can't fail?

 

[Northhighland]

On the contrary, North Highlands daughter chose to take a slightly slower route involving a change at Perth than to take either the earlier or later through trains from Glasgow.

Precisely. She was happy to concede that the extra time was worth it for the better comfort and reduced stress. There are many like her. It isn't even a debate really, it is common practice travelling to and from Inverness.

 

[timj]

Great article here with an interior vestibule pic and details of infra-red passenger counting which I'd never heard of:

https://www.railengineer.uk/2017/03/23/scotrails-new-hsts/

 

[Bletchleyite]

The NIR class 3000s have been around for a while and they have very few vibrations.

And I wouldn't say 158s were *generally* rattly, though some parts of the replacement ceiling conduit on the ATW refurb appear to be below par in quality terms and so do a bit. It's more of a soporific whine. I actually find it quite relaxing.

170s seem to be of much poorer build quality and do rattle, as well as feeling like there is noticeable body flex on jointed rail. (It probably isn't actually body flex, but it feels like, and did from new, I remember finding it noticeable when I rode the first MML unit on the Matlock branch in the 1990s).

 

[gsnedders]

Don't agree with you here. As I have mentioned before, the 800/802 will probably be fine for the first 2-3 years but as high RPM components start to wear, the vibration and noise from under the floor become more noticeable and in the case of the 170s was downright annoying. It's happened with every DMU that's been built, whether it be a 1950's first generation unit, a 156, a 158, a 170, a 180, a Voyager or an Irish IC 22000 unit. The list goes on. Anyway time will tell once the new bimodes age a few years, but based on previous experience, I'm not anticipating they will fare any better. I'll quite happily eat my words if I'm proved wrong.

Given the IEP trains are technically procured on a per-diagram basis, don't the noise level requirements apply on a per-diagram basis?

The point about the Highland Chieftan is obvious to anyone in Inverness station when the train leaves or arrives. People certainly plan their journeys around these services. Same in Aberdeen. Sao the passengers don't care isn't true.

The point you make about semi-retirement I don't agree with. The speed they operate at and the number off hours makes no difference to corroded pipework etc, in fact less operation may make that worse. However the public will put up with a bit of unreliability for a better service. And a seat.

Right, it's clear passengers prefer the LNER operated services, but that doesn't give any evidence as to which difference (or set of differences) makes them better.

For my parents, for example, the complaints I hear from them are mostly related to the 1/3 and 2/3 doors, both putting cold air into the cabin, and the "piercing" alarm when they are unlocked, neither of which the LNER HSTs suffer from (though given PRM requirements, the ScotRail ones might from the latter). Their other complaints are normally when it's too hot in summer and not having a through breeze (either because the AC has failed or is, presumably, set too high), unlike the Mk1/Mk2s they grew up with.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For my parents, for example, the complaints I hear from them are mostly related to the 1/3 and 2/3 doors, both putting cold air into the cabin, and the "piercing" alarm when they are unlocked, neither of which the LNER HSTs suffer from (though given PRM requirements, the ScotRail ones might from the latter).

One hopes not. On the Tube, the Northern Line doorbell "ding dong" and the S-stock violin-like tone are both much nicer on the ear, and presumably stem from the same requirement.

 

[najaB]

...and the "piercing" alarm when they are unlocked...

Imagine that, an alarm that gets your attention. What will they think of next?