Northern issue penalty fares after ticket office left unmanned

[pemma]

A rail passenger was fined £20 for not having a ticket despite no staff being on duty and even taking a picture as evidence of the closed booth.

Richard Clark was travelling from Wavertree Technology Park to Liverpool Lime Street, on September 10.

When he arrived at the station to purchase a ticket he was met with a closed booth and a sign that read "Ticket staff are currently away. Please purchase a ticket for travel at the nearest ticket vending machine before travelling on a Northern Service".

Richard therefore boarded the train and when he arrived at Liverpool Lime Street said he began to queue at the 'pop up' ticket office on the platform.

However despite showing evidence the ticket booth was closed and asking to purchase a return ticket, he was instead slapped with a £20 fine.

Richard claims when he was issued the fine the officer told him it was in a bid to "educate passengers".

Richard said: "I feel it is very unfair. I have not committed any crime to be fined. If I had jumped the barriers or tried to avoid paying in some way - yes - but I was stood in the queue and wanted to buy a ticket."

He was also told that there was a ticket machine in the station he had travelled from, on the opposite platform to where he was.

Northern Rail 'punishing innocent people'
He said: "I feel a polite word and a please don't do this again approach would have been far more educational than a punishment of £20. I do not travel regularly on this line and was not aware that a ticket machine had been installed on the opposite platform, on the Manchester line.

"The sign in the ticket booth window did not tell me that the nearest ticket booth was in that station and the ticket machine was also obscured by a train on the platform, so I neither saw it or knew it was there. Plus if I had gone over to that platform I would have missed my train."

Richard said he was not the only one to receive a fine and also saw his friend's 15-year-old son and an elderly woman given the punishment.

He added: "If Northern rail were providing an adequate service I would find this fine a little more palatable, yet I have to check online every time I travel to see if the trains are running and if so, on time. More often than not they are not, creating confusion to the passenger as to whether they have the time to even buy a ticket."

He has now submitted an appeal to Northern Rail.

He said: "If the appeal is not successful I will never travel on Northern Rail again. They are punishing innocent people."

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/northern-rail-passenger-ticket-fine-15165970

No surprise there. I do wonder whether any of the 3 passengers mentioned as being handed penalty fares wanted to pay by cash, given the Northern TVMs (which Richard claimed he didn't see due to being on the other platform and a train being there) are card only machines.

 

[Skymonster]

"Ticket staff are currently away. Please purchase a ticket for travel at the nearest ticket vending machine before travelling on a Northern Service."

I wonder what Mr.Clark didn't understand in the words before travelling?

 

[Gareth Marston]

yep Wavertree has a TVM and penalty fare signage by all accounts.

 

[najaB]

I have some sympathy in that the ticket machine was obscured by a train at the exact moment he looked, but "Plus if I had gone over to that platform I would have missed my train." reads to me that he didn't leave enough time to account for a queue at the ticket office.

 

[Clip]

I have some sympathy in that the ticket machine was obscured by a train at the exact moment he looked, but "Plus if I had gone over to that platform I would have missed my train." reads to me that he didn't leave enough time to account for a queue at the ticket office.

Ahh dont let that get in the way of a good rant at northern and its pfs. Cant wait for the multitude of posts from the usual suspects who will blame northern and not said passenger

 

[pemma]

I have some sympathy in that the ticket machine was obscured by a train at the exact moment he looked, but "Plus if I had gone over to that platform I would have missed my train." reads to me that he didn't leave enough time to account for a queue at the ticket office.

If a ticket office is unmanned at a station without a TVM I often wait until just before the train is due before leaving the ticket office in case they return before the train arrives. I don't know how long this person waited or why the ticket office was unmanned just before a train was due but he does mention getting his phone out and taking a photo, which probably took as much time as buying a ticket would.

 

[pemma]

Ahh dont let that get in the way of a good rant at northern and its pfs. Cant wait for the multitude of posts from the usual suspects who will blame northern and not said passenger

Whose fault is it that a staffed station had no member of staff present just before a train was due?

 

[185]

Bothers me that the useless PTE with a network rail manager sitting as it's authority chairman sits there and does nothing. Far too close to the TOCs to be impartial in my opinion.

Shut booking office is in breach of Squire. On Merseyside, Northern are paid and contracted to have full always open booking offices. When it's shut, Northern are supposed to be fined, not their punters - honest or not.

 

[najaB]

Whose fault is it that a staffed station had no member of staff present just before a train was due?

Given that we don't know how long it was shut it could have been anything, even a dodgy Indian takeaway the night before.

 

[Skymonster]

If the guy's complaint had been about the ticket office being shut during normal opening hours it would have been more legitimate. But that wasn't the story he went to the Liverpool Echo with. And the absent staff presumably would not have written a sign saying 'please purchase... before travel' if there was no means to do so. As najaB suggests, this smack of the guy arriving just before the train was due and deciding to do whatever he felt like (i.e. board) rather than follow the guidance on the sign.

 

[185]

National Rail Enquiries Website
Ticket machines

No

. . . . .

 

[najaB]

. . . . .

Which would be relevant had he complained that NRE said there was no ticket machine. He didn't.

 

[Parham Wood]

I thought if you wanted to pay by cash and not card you could buy at the first available opportunity that provided a cash purchase facility or has this now changed?

 

[najaB]

I thought if you wanted to pay by cash and not card you could buy at the first available opportunity that provided a cash purchase facility or has this now changed?

Northern TVMs in Penalty Fare areas issue travel permits to people who want to pay using cash (not that we know the passenger wanted to pay using cash).

 

[185]

Which would be relevant had he complained that NRE said there was no ticket machine. He didn't.

It is extremely relevant when a website which is our industry's front of house, run by RDG (Atoc) has info which is incorrect.

It is the fault of lazy, sloppy businesses within our industry who give ammunition the to fare evaders to help them avoid paying.

- My opinion, but companies like theirs bring the rest of the railway down. Why anyone would defend them is beyond me.

 

[najaB]

It is extremely relevant...

To this case? How, exactly?

 

[robbeech]

Given that we don't know how long it was shut it could have been anything, even a dodgy Indian takeaway the night before.

Other takeaways are available.

Northern TVMs in Penalty Fare areas issue travel permits to people who want to pay using cash (not that we know the passenger wanted to pay using cash).

Very true. Is it now in the penalty fare documentation that making passengers obtain and produce upon demand a ‘promise to pay’ notice is mandatory or has that not been added yet. I can see the benefit to the toc for adding this though I’d be confident in saying that it cannot be enforced until this is the case.


Why would it be made deliberately complicated for people to buy a ticket for a train? The people who evade the fares still evade the fares in the exact same way they did before yet now, people who make a mistake* are picking up the tab for this.

* in this instance I agree that they should have Purchased a ticket but we do not know the full details of timings and as such cannot come to a conclusion either way. We are told that we should not be expected to wait longer than 5 minutes to queue to purchase a ticket. If they have allowed 5 minutes plus time to get to the platform and reading the notice, walking to the ticket machine, likely queueing for a time, walking back and catching the train would have almost certainly taken longer than this. At what point does it become an unacceptable length of time to take purchasing a ticket. Are we expecting the passenger to run? Is that encouraged now?
I appreciate this isn’t the best example as I personally feel they could have handled it better but to me it gives a great example of why the reputation of some tocs is quite poor.

 

[Clip]

Whose fault is it that a staffed station had no member of staff present just before a train was due?

How do you know no staff member was present - they may have been on a pnb or anything.

 

[Bantamzen]

Ahh dont let that get in the way of a good rant at northern and its pfs. Cant wait for the multitude of posts from the usual suspects who will blame northern and not said passenger

Indeed, it must be Northern's fault because, well Northern. Not the fault of a passenger who ignored a message telling them to use the TVM, and then boarded a train without a valid ticket or P2P. And of course if they had arrived without enough time to get said ticket from the TVM (even though a ticket bought at the office would have taken at least as long), it must be Northern's fault for not arranging their timetables and positioning their TVMs to suit this passenger's timing.

There are times when this forum descends to the level of a tabloid social media comment section...

 

[WelshBluebird]

Just "nearest ticket vending machine" is pretty vague though. It could meant at another station or at the destination. If there is a TVM at that station could the message not have said that?

 

[James Wake]

"Penalty Fare Fine" on the official paper notice, that's a bit naughty isn't it, a fine can only be imposed on instructions of a court of law, but the words penalty fare are OK.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Personally, whilst I have absolutely NO issue with TOCs taking all reasonable steps to ensure they collect all the revenue they are due, I consider it incumbent upon them to facilitate the payment of such fares in all cases. And when they fail to adequately do so, they cannot morally charge any form of penalty. Thus it becomes a matter of revenue vs. cost; a choice they can make on commercial grounds. In my opinion, a ticket vending machine on another, possibly quite distant (in footsteps terms) platform (unless the sole entrance to the station is at that platform and the TVM is adjacent) is not an adequate provision. Neither are facilities that are so under-resourced (not enough machines, staff, windows, whatever) that genuine customers risk missing trains because of excessive dwell times at such facilities.

 

[najaB]

Neither are facilities that are so under-resourced (not enough machines, staff, windows, whatever) that genuine customers risk missing trains because of excessive dwell times at such facilities.

There's zero indication of 'excessive dwell times'.

 

[pemma]

Indeed, it must be Northern's fault because, well Northern. Not the fault of a passenger who ignored a message telling them to use the TVM, and then boarded a train without a valid ticket or P2P. And of course if they had arrived without enough time to get said ticket from the TVM (even though a ticket bought at the office would have taken at least as long), it must be Northern's fault for not arranging their timetables and positioning their TVMs to suit this passenger's timing.

There are times when this forum descends to the level of a tabloid social media comment section...

Logically Northern's notice would say where the TVMs are and that they are card only but if you want you pay by cash you should obtain a permission to travel from it (which probably wouldn't stand up if someone with legal knowledge took a case to court as I'm sure the conditions of travel don't require you to get a slip to prove where you boarded if you want to buy a ticket using cash.)

Since you obviously know it all can you confirm the time the passenger arrived and that the signal at the end of platform 2 wasn't on red preventing the train in the opposite direction (which prevented the passenger from seeing the TVM) from leaving? If not you're posting tabloid style speculation about it being the passenger's fault.

 

[pemma]

How do you know no staff member was present - they may have been on a pnb or anything.

If they aren't in the ticket office they aren't present. If the person can't do a pnb or anything without leaving the ticket office unstaffed just before a train was due the ticket office obviously doesn't have the right level of staffing.

 

[Harpers Tate]

There's zero indication of 'excessive dwell times'.

None, nowhere, never? I haven't stated here what I consider "excessive" - but I'd venture to suggest that as a yardstick, >10 minutes is. And that certainly happens from time to time in certain places. And it is exactly those "times" that, when they do occur, render "penalties" (in the broadest sense) immoral. Just as immoral - possibly more so - as fare evaders themselves.

For the avoidance of dount, the "dwell times" to which I refer are those required of the customer in advance of their train departure in order to satisfy their pre-travel responsibilities.

 

[Starmill]

- My opinion, but companies like theirs bring the rest of the railway down. Why anyone would defend them is beyond me.

Exactly. It's crazy behavior which damages their own reputation and gains them almost nothing. The customer was offering to pay the correct fare, but as usual that wasn't good enough for Northern!

Logically Northern's notice would say where the TVMs are and that they are card only but if you want you pay by cash you should obtain a permission to travel from it (which probably wouldn't stand up if someone with legal knowledge took a case to court as I'm sure the conditions of travel don't require you to get a slip to prove where you boarded if you want to buy a ticket using cash.)

Northern's view seems to be that you should arrive at the station an unlimited number of minutes before your train in order to examine every part of the station for a ticket machine, just in case they have installed one but not bothered to ensure the website is up to date. This includes apparently going down on to every platform, even ones remote from where you are boarding your train.

Of course, this is not the mindset elsewhere. It is pretty easy to deal with at ScotRail managed stations because there's always a sign that says if there's a ticket machine or asking you to purchase your ticket on the train or at your destination. Northern apparently don't wish to put up such signs though, or keep the website up to date.

 

[najaB]

If the person can't do a pnb or anything without leaving the ticket office unstaffed just before a train was due the ticket office obviously doesn't have the right level of staffing.

Wavertree Technology Park is well into metro frequencies (4-5tph in each direction) so its not like someone would be stranded for hours if the ticket office was unavailable.

 

[najaB]

None, nowhere, never?

In the case we're discussing, no.

 

[pemma]

Wavertree Technology Park is well into metro frequencies (4-5tph in each direction) so its not like someone would be stranded for hours if the ticket office was unavailable.

What about those travelling beyond Lime Street? Onward connections to places like Acton Bridge and Winsford from Lime Street aren't even every hour.