Platform 15 and 16 project at Manchester Piccadilly.

[Killingworth]

None and I have no idea Current working hypothesis in the Industry is that they believe that technology can answer any problem, and PCs are cheap. Personally, i'd say they are little boys playing with trains, and no amount of time-served professionals is ever going to be enough to convince them of their naivety - plus they won't be around in five year's time and don't travel by train, so why should they be worried?

And by putting so much off for yet another reappraisal the next lot who have to look at it will cost a small fortune to tinker round the edges, make a few changes, some of which will be good and some bad. The project cost in the meantime has multiplied, so has to be put off again.

I'd love to know who decided that singling the Sheffield to Manchester track through Dore & Totley station in 1985 was a good idea. Almost as soon as it was done it was found to be an operational problem, and it's got worse since. Simplifying the junctions onto the fast mainline on safety grounds was said to be the reason, but it didn't also need singling for a kilometre. Surely that must have been clear? (The footbridge needing work has been suggested as another reason.) A plan to redouble has apparently been in existence since quite soon after1985 - maybe someone on the inside could find when? It's been said that there was a plan on the wall of Railtrack's offices in Manchester soon after they were split off from British Rail in the 1990s. Planning permission was first sought it seems in 2005. TWAO approved February 2018. No specific timescale as yet.

 

[edwin_m]

"Digital Railway" will only go so far towards providing capacity, but will never allow trains to pass through each other nor reduce the length of time it takes to get six coaches' worth of passengers onto a two-car train with end doors.

Clearly what we need is quantum trains and quantum passengers, as quantum tunneling allows them to move from one place to the other without passing through whatever is between. Now I think of it quantum tunneling would be good for NPR too. That will be £5 million please.

I'd love to know who decided that singling the Sheffield to Manchester track through Dore & Totley station in 1985 was a good idea. Almost as soon as it was done it was found to be an operational problem, and it's got worse since. Simplifying the junctions onto the fast mainline on safety grounds was said to be the reason, but it didn't also need singling for a kilometre.

A single lead junction carries more risk of collision, so I fail to see how it could be justified on safety grounds. BR was very fond of singling junctions in the 70s and 80s whereas maximuising capacity dictates that junctions are the very places that need to be double. A single lead doesn't even reduce the number of turnouts. And it's a reminder to those who advocate nationalisation that BR wasn't averse to a bit of cost-cutting now and again. And again and again.

The 1km length of singling could be down to it being on a long sweeping curve. Switches and crossings on curves was another thing BR didn't like.

 

[Ianno87]

Clearly what we need is quantum trains and quantum passengers, as quantum tunneling allows them to move from one place to the other without passing through whatever is between. Now I think of it quantum tunneling would be good for NPR too. That will be £5 million please.


A single lead junction carries more risk of collision, so I fail to see how it could be justified on safety grounds. BR was very fond of singling junctions in the 70s and 80s whereas maximuising capacity dictates that junctions are the very places that need to be double. A single lead doesn't even reduce the number of turnouts. And it's a reminder to those who advocate nationalisation that BR wasn't averse to a bit of cost-cutting now and again. And again and again.

The 1km length of singling could be down to it being on a long sweeping curve. Switches and crossings on curves was another thing BR didn't like.

If it was anything like Ely North Jn it was singled, *but* enabled an increase in through speed (which in Ely's case arguably increased the capacity of the overall junction with 50/60mph single leads replacing 20-30mph double junctions)

 

[edwin_m]

If it was anything like Ely North Jn it was singled, *but* enabled an increase in through speed (which in Ely's case arguably increased the capacity of the overall junction with 50/60mph single leads replacing 20-30mph double junctions)

Dore doesn't have anything like the complexity of Ely. With the former four-track formation towards Sheffield (obstructed but only quite a way further north) there would be space to provide a high-speed double junction - which I presume is what is intended. So today's junction may be faster than the previous one, but the future junction will probably be just as fast. And with that 1km single line I can't believe the current arrangement will have better capacity than either the past or future layout.

 

[_toommm_]

Dore doesn't have anything like the complexity of Ely. With the former four-track formation towards Sheffield (obstructed but only quite a way further north) there would be space to provide a high-speed double junction - which I presume is what is intended. So today's junction may be faster than the previous one, but the future junction will probably be just as fast. And with that 1km single line I can't believe the current arrangement will have better capacity than either the past or future layout.

The main problem at the moment is the Cleethorpes-bound TPE services losing time at Stockport, so this delays it going over the single track at Dore. To stop it delaying the Airport train or the local stopper, that has to then clear the junction delaying either the Northern to Leeds or the Crosscountry north. Either way, the single track means someone loses out...

 

[Killingworth]

The main problem at the moment is the Cleethorpes-bound TPE services losing time at Stockport, so this delays it going over the single track at Dore. To stop it delaying the Airport train or the local stopper, that has to then clear the junction delaying either the Northern to Leeds or the Crosscountry north. Either way, the single track means someone loses out...

After you, no after you! Norwich bound 158 incoming from Manchester, late as usual, makes Liverpool bound 158 service from Norwich wait at Dore & Totley. This picture was used by the BBC in November 2013 to announce the then anticipated Hope Valley Capacity Scheme! In 5 years little has changed.

Crossovers can be dangerous as the second picture from 1907 shows! Express for the south had just crossed over to the then new faster tracks.

 

[B&I]

Anecdotally, I believe its over 30%.

From experience, I'd suggest that's a low estimate

 

[B&I]

If they are just playing a waiting game what are they waiting for?

More people to travel by car

 

[B&I]

As I said in the New Alignments thread there is a significant political angle to getting public money spent on railway infrastructure. Shiny new trains make for good photo opportunities, rolling out new technology allows for much use of buzzwords in the accompanying spin, but infrastructure consisting of concrete and steel is very boring from both a political and PR pov.

Railways are also of little interest to the wider electorate who decide which lot get to make the decisions that count. At opposite ends of the spectrum tax cutting or spending huge sums on the NHS are both obvious vote winners. But apart from users and supporters of the railways almost nobody else is that bothered about rail spending. Not difficult to see where railways lie in the public spending pecking order. So to an extent it relies on there being sufficiently visionary people either in office or high up in the DfT to push worthwhile projects along. At the moment such people are in very short supply and while Brexit totally overshadows anything else in Westminster and Whitehall I don't expect to see anything other than yet more prevarification when it comes to approving the obviously needed improvements we discuss so keenly here.

I rather hope that a lot of voters in Home Counties commuting towns may prove you wrong about the irrelevance of rail performance to voting behaviour

 

[Chester1]

I think we all agree that redoubling at Dore is necessary! It seems very likely to happen along with the passing loop.

Modern railways October edition has suggested that NR is looking at whether 15tph can use platforms 13 and 14. I that seems very optimistic unless there is a ban on end door units which cannot happen because all of TPEs new stock.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I rather hope that a lot of voters in Home Counties commuting towns may prove you wrong about the irrelevance of rail performance to voting behaviour

It would be nice to think so but I don't recall the Southern dispute making much impact on the 2017 General Election apart from the constituency of Brighton Kemptown. And let's face it season ticket holders in the Home Counties have put up with all sorts over the years, especially price rises, but very rarely do they make an issue of it in election campaigns.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think we all agree that redoubling at Dore is necessary! It seems very likely to happen along with the passing loop.

Modern railways October edition has suggested that NR is looking at whether 15tph can use platforms 13 and 14. I that seems very optimistic unless there is a ban on end door units which cannot happen because all of TPEs new stock.

They could send it all to Victoria? Mind you, who would use that pointless Chord then?

 

[EE Andy b1]

For anything to work any better we need through platforms 15 and 16 at Manchester Piccadilly but as well as that the signalling all wants renewing from Edgeley Jct through to Piccadilly and most of the track layout from Ardwick into Piccadilly wants upgrading with some increased junction speeds.

 

[Chester1]

They could send it all to Victoria? Mind you, who would use that pointless Chord then?

I don't think the chord would be pointless without TPE services. It would still be useful if it was only used by Northern services to connect Victoria with Oxford Road, Piccadilly and the Airport. I would extend the Burnley service, a Calder Valley service, divert a Stockport EMU to Victoria and as an exception to a no end door units I would retain the Airport-Newcastle service. I would divert Middlesborough service to Liverpool. In the long term I don't think 2 fast services per hour between Liverpool and Manchester will be enough and the new stock will be filled before the end of the franchise.

 

[Tomnick]

For anything to work any better we need through platforms 15 and 16 at Manchester Piccadilly but as well as that the signalling all wants renewing from Edgeley Jct through to Piccadilly and most of the track layout from Ardwick into Piccadilly wants upgrading with some increased junction speeds.

I'm not convinced, beyond a few tweaks. Slade Lane's the critical junction really, whichever way you look at it - that's probably still the best place to sort out the various conflicts. The relatively fast ladder at Ardwick and the station throat itself give alternative options, particularly for Up trains. It'd help a lot if the signalling there wasn't so restrictive - conditional double reds and approach release - approaching Slade Lane though, although at the moment, being delayed there only means that you spend that much less time in the queue for P14! The closing-up signals mean that you can at least re-occupy a platform relatively quickly though.

 

[Chester1]

I'm not convinced, beyond a few tweaks. Slade Lane's the critical junction really, whichever way you look at it - that's probably still the best place to sort out the various conflicts. The relatively fast ladder at Ardwick and the station throat itself give alternative options, particularly for Up trains. It'd help a lot if the signalling there wasn't so restrictive - conditional double reds and approach release - approaching Slade Lane though, although at the moment, being delayed there only means that you spend that much less time in the queue for P14! The closing-up signals mean that you can at least re-occupy a platform relatively quickly though.

It would help if the government knew what it wanted to do with the Castlefield corridor but it clearly doesn't. The Ordsall chord changed it in favour of long distance services but the focus on now seems to be making it more like Thameslink.

 

[EE Andy b1]

I'm not convinced, beyond a few tweaks. Slade Lane's the critical junction really, whichever way you look at it - that's probably still the best place to sort out the various conflicts. The relatively fast ladder at Ardwick and the station throat itself give alternative options, particularly for Up trains. It'd help a lot if the signalling there wasn't so restrictive - conditional double reds and approach release - approaching Slade Lane though, although at the moment, being delayed there only means that you spend that much less time in the queue for P14! The closing-up signals mean that you can at least re-occupy a platform relatively quickly though.

Slade lane is a critical junction as you say but not much they can do with that even if the fast lines were the two middle tracks throughout the junction as you still have to cross through the junction from the ups to Styal. Maybe Bi-directional lines throughout from Piccadilly to Slade Lane!! The double blocking of signalling is a big problem and new signalling would alleviate some of those problems but as you say again all you'd do was get in the queue for P14, but if you had P15 & P16 you could feather trains in and then feather them out again at the other end. In a perfect world.

 

[MarkyT]

Slade lane is a critical junction as you say but not much they can do with that even if the fast lines were the two middle tracks throughout the junction as you still have to cross through the junction from the ups to Styal. Maybe Bi-directional lines throughout from Piccadilly to Slade Lane!!

Bidi throughout would not help much with regular operations. Here's my idea for a modified layout doing away with the diamonds and providing an extra bidi track for a signal section between the slows north of the junction for additional weaving options to manage real time conflict.

 

[Tomnick]

It would help if the government knew what it wanted to do with the Castlefield corridor but it clearly doesn't. The Ordsall chord changed it in favour of long distance services but the focus on now seems to be making it more like Thameslink.

I suspect that the DfT knows full well that it'll always be served predominantly by longer distance services, but would rather pretend that it's comparable with Thameslink and throw around some "digital railway" press releases than actually do anything that's going to solve the problem.

Slade lane is a critical junction as you say but not much they can do with that even if the fast lines were the two middle tracks throughout the junction as you still have to cross through the junction from the ups to Styal. Maybe Bi-directional lines throughout from Piccadilly to Slade Lane!! The double blocking of signalling is a big problem and new signalling would alleviate some of those problems but as you say again all you'd do was get in the queue for P14, but if you had P15 & P16 you could feather trains in and then feather them out again at the other end. In a perfect world.

At least making the signalling less restrictive would get things through the junction more quickly. All the conflicts that happen there have to happen somewhere; it's perhaps just unfortunate that they all happen in the same place. I'm not sure that altering the layout would help, on that basis. You couldn't take much out of the mix other than moves from the Up Slow towards Stockport, in any case, and I don't think there'd be much to be gained from the ability to cross them over the fasts later than Slade Lane. I think the flows are pretty well segregated now anyway, with most trains leaving Picc on the slows heading for the Airport and most on the fasts heading for Stockport?

 

[30907]

I'd love to know who decided that singling the Sheffield to Manchester track through Dore & Totley station in 1985 was a good idea.

To be fair, in 1985 there were only 3-4 trains an hour south from Sheffield on all routes, whereas now there are 9.

 

[DPWH]

Voters in South-East England will vote loyally vote tory without further consideration. They'll loyally vote for tories who are competent. They'll loyally vote for tories who work hard. They'll loyally vote for tories who are reasonable. They'll also loyally vote for any tory candidate who happens to be absolutely none of the aforementioned things. They'll turnout and vote even when the tory candidate is getting 60%+ of the vote and there's no conceivable manner in which anyone else could win. I think the idea that something as simple as trains not running changing the result in these seats is unlikely. They are in the bank in a GE.

 

[B&I]

I don't think the chord would be pointless without TPE services. It would still be useful if it was only used by Northern services to connect Victoria with Oxford Road, Piccadilly and the Airport. I would extend the Burnley service, a Calder Valley service, divert a Stockport EMU to Victoria and as an exception to a no end door units I would retain the Airport-Newcastle service. I would divert Middlesborough service to Liverpool. In the long term I don't think 2 fast services per hour between Liverpool and Manchester will be enough and the new stock will be filled before the end of the franchise.

This why Manchester is getting a high speed tunnel in the wrong place. An east-west tunnel, with a south-western approach from HS2, and absorbing the long-distance flows from Castlefiele (and from Chat Moss, the CLC, both Stalybridge routes, and hopefully most of what currently runs south and east via Stockport, and perhaps also some Blackpool Scottish and Chester / North Wales services) would leave oodles of capacity for a cross-Manchester regional network incorporating the Castlefield corridor and the Ordsall Chord

 

[Killingworth]

Just been rereading the Statement of Case for the Hope Valley Scheme - more to be added to that thread later. When it was prepared on 18th January 2016 it said;

"1.5.8 A TWA Order Application for the Manchester Piccadilly and Oxford Road Capacity Scheme was applied for by Network Rail on 18th December 2014 and an Inquiry into the application formally closed on 6th November 2015..........."

Then " 1.5.9 A decision regarding this Order is expected spring/summer of 2016."

Sounds of hollow laughter

 

[Mogster]

The additional services since May are causing horrendous overcrowding on Oxford Roads centre platform.

We had another scary episode last night caused by a failed train in 2. Platform and overbridge rammed with passengers and several services being transferred to 1 at short notice. Very close to people actually falling off the platforms or being crushed on the bridge steps. How long can this go on with nothing being done?

 

[Sceptre]

Just been rereading the Statement of Case for the Hope Valley Scheme - more to be added to that thread later. When it was prepared on 18th January 2016 it said;

"1.5.8 A TWA Order Application for the Manchester Piccadilly and Oxford Road Capacity Scheme was applied for by Network Rail on 18th Devember 23014 and an Inquiry into the application formally closed on 6th November 2015..........."

Then " 1.5.9 A decision regarding this Order is expected spring/summer of 2016."

Sounds of hollow laughter

If you want a prime example of how staggeringly incompetent the boiled egg is, look no further than the fact that transport infrastructure was, even by the admission of most Labour supporters, the one area where the coalition could legitimately blame "the mess left by the previous government". Now, that excuse rings even more hollow in Transport than it does anywhere else.

 

[HowardGWR]

The additional services since May are causing horrendous overcrowding on Oxford Roads centre platform.

We had another scary episode last night caused by a failed train in 2. Platform and overbridge rammed with passengers and several services being transferred to 1 at short notice. Very close to people actually falling off the platforms or being crushed on the bridge steps. How long can this go on with nothing being done?

If you read the words of Mr Haines, the new NR CEO, quite a time, as he has commissioned another study with the background idea that more trains could be squeezed through the two track line. It's 'digital' that's going to solve it, see.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

If you read the words of Mr Haines, the new NR CEO, quite a time, as he has commissioned another study with the background idea that more trains could be squeezed through the two track line. It's 'digital' that's going to solve it, see.

Given the somewhat strained relationship between NR and the DfT I suspect it's a case of not biting the hand that feeds. Haines' performance at the TSC was not exactly enthusiastic on this matter.

 

[superkev]

If you read the words of Mr Haines, the new NR CEO, quite a time, as he has commissioned another study with the background idea that more trains could be squeezed through the two track line. It's 'digital' that's going to solve it, see.

He continuing with the consultant culture. I.e. if you have a problem dont fix it just appoint a consultant for yet another study. By the time the reports done he will probably be away so his successor can repeat the process.
K
P.s. I was just reading back in the 1800's a contractor was appointed in Jan to lay Morecambes tramway and by March he had layed a mile. I fear for this country seemingly bogged down in masses of bureaucracy and can't do people in suits.

 

[randyrippley]

....................P.s. I was just reading back in the 1800's a contractor was appointed in Jan to lay Morecambes tramway and by March he had layed a mile. I fear for this country seemingly bogged down in masses of bureaucracy and can't do people in suits.

There's no comparison between spiking down lightweight horsetram rails on an existing gravel road and building a modern rail line

 

[superkev]

There's no comparison between spiking down lightweight horsetram rails on an existing gravel road and building a modern rail line

That true but laying 1 mile of any sort of track in 3 months with only basic tools is very impressive. Local to me the mile or so Wibsey electric tramway was done in just 6 months including the concrete bed. I've seen a picture of them mixing the concrete by hand on a huge board. All this machinery now and things seem to take forever.
K