GWR Class 800

[AlexNL]

So why do new trains have to be worse than old ones ?

That's an easy question with a complicated answer.

Sometimes, this can be explained by standards: technical standards set by the EU, accessibility standards (EU PRM TSI, RVAR) and fire safety standards play a big role in modern train design. The loud beeps when a door is opening aren't just there for fun, they are an outcome of accessibility standards. Some materials are no longer used in the construction of trains, such as asbestos (health hazard). Fire safety regulations can also have an impact, soft cushions might no longer be allowed as they would burn too quickly.

However, a lot depends on who actually ordered the trains... in the case of the Class 700 "Thameslink" and the Class 800 "Super Express" (IEP, IET, Azuma), this was not by the train operators. Both fleets were specified and ordered by the civil servants at the DfT, an invisible entity which can't directly be held responsible by the passengers (unlike a TOC). The DfT forces TOCs to use those trains through franchise agreements.

I am confident that the civil servants working on specifying those fleets intended well, but they were constrained by budgetary and ideological constraints. Outright purchasing new trains was not an option, as this would've added billions of pounds to the national debt. So they had to come up with all sorts of "creative"* ways to finance the desired new fleets, which made them incredibly expensive.

Costs had to be kept under control, so some things were "simplified". This is why the Class 700 is a fleet with one layout, despite working a lot of services with different needs. This is why the Class 800 can feel like a downgrade compared to HSTs (e.g. no buffet car).

To draw a comparison: Greater Anglia are getting a complete new fleet, they have set themselves the target to make regional trains (the 755's) feel like intercity units. The initial impressions, based on the unit which was on display during InnoTrans, are quite good. The DfT were not involved in the procurement of this fleet at all, it's all being financed privately by the ROSCOs under traditional lease arrangements.

* The 700s and 800s/801s are not leased in a traditional way, but are more like a "Train as a service" model. The supplier only gets paid for each diagram - if a train isn't available, the supplier does not get paid.

 

[yorksrob]

I tried one of these last week, and apart from the obvious hard seat issue (noted by my non-enthusiast family) the interior was reasonably spacious and pleasant. I was also pleased that the buffet trolley turned up at the correct time (around Truro).

My family were caught up in some teething troubles, being on a short formed five carriage set all the way from Penzance to Paddington (ouch).

That said, assuming they get that sorted they seem pleasent enough.

 

[InterCity:125]

Does anyone know when the first LNER 800 will be in service?

 

[jimm]

There is now a separate thread for discussion of LNER sets

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lner-azuma-class-800-801.170436/

 

[cactustwirly]

There is now a separate thread for discussion of LNER sets

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lner-azuma-class-800-801.170436/

Which also contains discussion about the introduction date.

 

[irish_rail]

Are the GWR 800s suffering from the serious brake application lag on blending as the LNER ones are?

Yes! A total pain in the arse when braking at low speed. Harder to stop than an HST in some ways!

 

[irish_rail]

JIMM- you may look at the IETS through a rise tinted enthusiasts perspective but the fact is down here passengers are really kicking off already about issues to do with poor seating and lack of buffet. I have passed on trains 4 days this week and on each occasion without fail I have had customers complain to me or the TM / trolley staff . People on proper long distance trains (and I'm not talking about your commuter cotswold line - a line I am perfectly familiar with BTW), expect a better product, and improvement over what they are losing.

Why should they have to get out at Plymouth and walk to a different set?? How will that provide an excellent journey experience.
Gwr genuinely risks losing custom to cars and planes at this end of the line , that is less of a risk up your way, but mine and many other jobs depend on people continuing to use the train from here and why would they when the product has become inferior?

And you mention the high percentage of 9 car sets, well that maybe so but when the vast majority are not going to see the southwest it's not really a relevant argument.

 

[jimm]

Outright purchasing new trains was not an option, as this would've added billions of pounds to the national debt. So they had to come up with all sorts of "creative"* ways to finance the desired new fleets, which made them incredibly expensive.

The DfT - more likely the Treasury - did not come up with all sorts of creative ways to finance the trains.

It came up with one, the same one the government had been using for all kinds of things since the 1990s - a private finance initiative - despite the problems with this way of paying for projects that were evident a long time before the IEP contract was agreed.

There was nothing stopping the Government working up the project, then asking the train leasing companies to acquire the trains in the same way as other rolling stock has been funded since privatisation. It may have required different arrangements from typical contracts but that's water under the bridge now.

 

[jimm]

JIMM- you may look at the IETS through a rise tinted enthusiasts perspective but the fact is down here passengers are really kicking off already about issues to do with poor seating and lack of buffet. I have passed on trains 4 days this week and on each occasion without fail I have had customers complain to me or the TM / trolley staff . People on proper long distance trains (and I'm not talking about your commuter cotswold line - a line I am perfectly familiar with BTW), expect a better product, and improvement over what they are losing.

Why should they have to get out at Plymouth and walk to a different set?? How will that provide an excellent journey experience.
Gwr genuinely risks losing custom to cars and planes at this end of the line , that is less of a risk up your way, but mine and many other jobs depend on people continuing to use the train from here and why would they when the product has become inferior?

And you mention the high percentage of 9 car sets, well that maybe so but when the vast majority are not going to see the southwest it's not really a relevant argument.

Whereas you seem unable to see it in any way other than completely and utterly negatively.

Even if there was an all-singing and all-dancing buffet car, Parker Knoll recliners to sit in and a jumbo seating capacity on every train - despite large numbers of the seats not having a single backside sat on them west of Plymouth for much of the year - I have no doubt that you would still find plenty of things to find fault with.

As for the idea that GWR has no competition to worry about elsewhere, perhaps look at the passenger numbers at Hanborough and Charlbury before Chiltern opened Oxford Parkway and since then.

I must have missed the luxurious seats with generous legroom and a buffet on Ryanair, or do they have a special breed of 737 on Newquay flights for the special breed of people in the South West?

 

[CMRail]

i

JIMM- you may look at the IETS through a rise tinted enthusiasts perspective but the fact is down here passengers are really kicking off already about issues to do with poor seating and lack of buffet. I have passed on trains 4 days this week and on each occasion without fail I have had customers complain to me or the TM / trolley staff . People on proper long distance trains (and I'm not talking about your commuter cotswold line - a line I am perfectly familiar with BTW), expect a better product, and improvement over what they are losing.

Why should they have to get out at Plymouth and walk to a different set?? How will that provide an excellent journey experience.
Gwr genuinely risks losing custom to cars and planes at this end of the line , that is less of a risk up your way, but mine and many other jobs depend on people continuing to use the train from here and why would they when the product has become inferior?

And you mention the high percentage of 9 car sets, well that maybe so but when the vast majority are not going to see the southwest it's not really a relevant argument.

These trains have been designed very well though have unfortunately come with too many teething problems. That said, they are nice trains to the commuter. The trolley range is going to be improved in a message from the boss about it to the GWR staff. They have amazing facilities, a well built kitchen, lovely built first class layout (not saying the seats are better) and the trolley means that the passengers who struggle to move or get disoriented can get it delivered right to their seat. The survey GWR carried out said that passengers prefer the trolley over the buffet.

Trains split for reasons, announcements would be made at stations and en route about the splitting and staff will be happy to carry over luggage and belongings.

Your saying that every passenger wants an amazing experience with soft seats that won’t pass fire regulations, a buffet car which is a waste of space and a lot dislike it. Passenger feedback shows that when the 800 works reliably, people like them.

 

[Thunderer]

I am getting bit tired of the 'long trains all of the time' obsessives here, who time after time choose to ignore the basic fact that IETs are replacing plenty of short formations, in the shape of the 180s and Turbos operating to the likes of Oxford/the Cotswold Line and to Bedwyn. And replacing HSTs used for jobs like Paddington to Hereford or Cheltenham off-peak, where there has been nothing else better suited to the service available, due to the limited supply of 180s. And offering the ability to not send hundreds of empty seats into Cornwall all day round for large parts of the year.

All services where one of the 700-seat behemoths - complete with a buffet and lashings of hot food, of course - would be utterly inappropriate most of the time.

As for all those getting misty-eyed about October 1976, one of my abiding memories of my first encounters with an HST was a Swindon to Paddington run - off-peak - where people had to stand, as there simply weren't enough second class seats just a couple of weeks after the trains entered service. Those passengers affected probably couldn't have cared less that the formation included both a restaurant car and a buffet car. Nostalgia isn't all that it is cracked up to be.

Some valid points there, but im sticking with my original thoughts, which is that the whole GWML project (Including the expensive construction and Agility consortium running them) was badly planned, badly executed and above all a waste of taxpayers money. Should have built a dedicated fleet of 5 car trains for Golden Vallley and Thames Valley services (didn't have to necessarily be the IET). The rest of the fleet should have been a full size diesel train 9-10 coaches based on the HST concept built to meet 21st century regulations, that is common sense, saving billions in electrification and endless disruption. With regards to empty seats in Cornwall, drop the fares, make it more attractive for people to leave the A38 and jump on a train, after all the Government are urging us to use more public transport, but at the same time scuppering the idea with high rail fares, short formed and packed trains (to which the IEP project will and has already added more misery) - bigger trains run empty some of the day because fares are too high and timetabling and connections do not make it preferable over taking the car. Our Railways have been battling roads since the Beeching/Marples sabotage of the 1960's, the industry has to do more to provide capacity and make it viable to use our railways again for everyone, not just the few who can afford to sell a kidney to buy an open return on the day between Exeter and Edinburgh.

 

[CMRail]

Some valid points there, but im sticking with my original thoughts, which is that the whole GWML project (Including the expensive construction and Agility consortium running them) was badly planned, badly executed and above all a waste of taxpayers money. Should have built a dedicated fleet of 5 car trains for Golden Vallley and Thames Valley services (didn't have to necessarily be the IET). The rest of the fleet should have been a full size diesel train 9-10 coaches based on the HST concept built to meet 21st century regulations, that is common sense, saving billions in electrification and endless disruption. With regards to empty seats in Cornwall, drop the fares, make it more attractive for people to leave the A38 and jump on a train, after all the Government are urging us to use more public transport, but at the same time scuppering the idea with high rail fares, short formed and packed trains (to which the IEP project will and has already added more misery) - bigger trains run empty some of the day because fares are too high and timetabling and connections do not make it preferable over taking the car. Our Railways have been battling roads since the Beeching/Marples sabotage of the 1960's, the industry has to do more to provide capacity and make it viable to use our railways again for everyone, not just the few who can afford to sell a kidney to buy an open return on the day between Exeter and Edinburgh.

You don’t travel along the coltswolds (north/south) a lot do you?

5 cars are enough for off peak Cheltenham, Cots, and Bristol via Parkway. 9 cars are required to operate these at peak times however as contain some very busy services.

5 cars for the Cheltenham’s and Thames Valley? How can you compare a 2 hour semi fast to a lot of stopping services? At peak that would be awful busy.

GWR ordered the correct amount of five car units and there is no issue with this for the customer all but confusion on arrival. Not the hardest thing to solve. Wait and see when (if) the new timetable comes out and see what GWR allocate.

 

[Warwick]

I thought the 802's did have different seats aren't they more firm than the 800's plus they have the GWR upholstery.

I shared a lunch table up on the 10.00 from Pz earlier in the week with a chap who was something to do with the Devon and Cornwall rail partnership and he told me the same.

 

[PHILIPE]

Are the GWR 800s suffering from the serious brake application lag on blending as the LNER ones are?

As you'll see on the dedicated HITACHI Scottish Class 385 thread they have all been taken out of traffic today for serious brake problems.

 

[Mag_seven]

As you'll see on the dedicated HITACHI Scottish Class 385 thread they have all been taken out of traffic today for serious brake problems.

Just to confirm its the class 385s that have been withdrawn from traffic not the GWR class 800s.

 

[PHILIPE]

Just to confirm its the class 385s that have been withdrawn from traffic not the GWR class 800s.

385s www.railforums.co.uk/threads/scotrail-class-385-discussion.126141/page-101

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

To draw a comparison: Greater Anglia are getting a complete new fleet, they have set themselves the target to make regional trains (the 755's) feel like intercity units. The initial impressions, based on the unit which was on display during InnoTrans, are quite good. The DfT were not involved in the procurement of this fleet at all, it's all being financed privately by the ROSCOs under traditional lease arrangements.

To compound the influence of the DfT, the TOCs and ROSCOs don't get a free hand to design what they like, even if the DfT does not specify the details.
They will be limited in things like number of vehicles and seating capacity, to meet peak "seats per hour" and other targets demanded in the ITT.
They also have to go for reusable stock, not dedicated to a particular route or service, so that the ROSCO can re-lease it elsewhere at the end of the franchise.
The TOC will have a bit more freedom with the cosmetic bits, but that doesn't seem to extend to seating quality.
Even GWR's 802s are turning out pretty much identical to the DfT-specified IEP, not least because of the development costs and timescales for any significant variation.
Bids are competitive too, which means TOCs aren't going to row the boat out on comfort if it loses them the bid.

 

[physics34]

That's an easy question with a complicated answer.

Sometimes, this can be explained by standards: technical standards set by the EU, accessibility standards (EU PRM TSI, RVAR) and fire safety standards play a big role in modern train design. The loud beeps when a door is opening aren't just there for fun, they are an outcome of accessibility standards. Some materials are no longer used in the construction of trains, such as asbestos (health hazard). Fire safety regulations can also have an impact, soft cushions might no longer be allowed as they would burn too quickly.

However, a lot depends on who actually ordered the trains... in the case of the Class 700 "Thameslink" and the Class 800 "Super Express" (IEP, IET, Azuma), this was not by the train operators. Both fleets were specified and ordered by the civil servants at the DfT, an invisible entity which can't directly be held responsible by the passengers (unlike a TOC). The DfT forces TOCs to use those trains through franchise agreements.

I am confident that the civil servants working on specifying those fleets intended well, but they were constrained by budgetary and ideological constraints. Outright purchasing new trains was not an option, as this would've added billions of pounds to the national debt. So they had to come up with all sorts of "creative"* ways to finance the desired new fleets, which made them incredibly expensive.

Costs had to be kept under control, so some things were "simplified". This is why the Class 700 is a fleet with one layout, despite working a lot of services with different needs. This is why the Class 800 can feel like a downgrade compared to HSTs (e.g. no buffet car).

To draw a comparison: Greater Anglia are getting a complete new fleet, they have set themselves the target to make regional trains (the 755's) feel like intercity units. The initial impressions, based on the unit which was on display during InnoTrans, are quite good. The DfT were not involved in the procurement of this fleet at all, it's all being financed privately by the ROSCOs under traditional lease arrangements.

* The 700s and 800s/801s are not leased in a traditional way, but are more like a "Train as a service" model. The supplier only gets paid for each diagram - if a train isn't available, the supplier does not get paid.

we have to remember that the seats are harder than they need to be and the door beeps for PSI TRM are louder than they need to be. Both of these things surpass the minimum requirement...but by so much that they are a nuisance. Not enough testing with passengers has been done.

 

[Warwick]

Whereas you seem unable to see it in any way other than completely and utterly negatively.

Even if there was an all-singing and all-dancing buffet car, Parker Knoll recliners to sit in and a jumbo seating capacity on every train - despite large numbers of the seats not having a single backside sat on them west of Plymouth for much of the year - I have no doubt that you would still find plenty of things to find fault with.

As for the idea that GWR has no competition to worry about elsewhere, perhaps look at the passenger numbers at Hanborough and Charlbury before Chiltern opened Oxford Parkway and since then.

I must have missed the luxurious seats with generous legroom and a buffet on Ryanair, or do they have a special breed of 737 on Newquay flights for the special breed of people in the South West?

Silly lot of statements. I spend over four and a half hours on a train from Penzance to Paddington. The least that I can expect from GWR is a comfortable seat - which is what I've got sitting here on the 14.00 from Paddington. The buffet car has had a continuous stream of people patronising it. Going up on the 10.00 from Penzance earlier this week I had an excellent - if expensive - lunch on the train. I also had in interesting chat with a bloke from the Devon and Cornwall rail partnership who had some interesting things to say about the wonder trains. If EasyJet or Flybe have not so comfortable seats it's of little matter as the journey from St. Mawgan to Gatwick is only about an hour. What railway enthusiasts and trainspotters must realise that trains are more than Electro-mechanical-pneumatic devices with numbers on the side. At £120+ for a fare I'd like a comfortable seat in a proper train not a pseudo commuter unit that's the railway equipment equivalent of mutton dressed as lamb.

 

[Warwick]

Are the GWR 800s suffering from the serious brake application lag on blending as the LNER ones are?

Blending?

 

[404250]

I would suggest that the over loud door beeps could cause hearing damage or tinnitus if someone stood with an ear right next to the speaker (don't know where this is located though). So one health and safety issue solved, then a damages claim as a result?

 

[trebor79]

What a load of nonsense. Door bleeps aren't going to cause damage or tinnitus.
I once foolishly stood next to a shotgun being fired with no hearing protection. That gave me tinnitus for about 24 hours and I was concerned I'd permanently damaged myself but it went away.

Shotgun is several orders of magnitude louder than a warning bleeper.

The seats are far too hard and there's no buffet. Aside from that they seem perfectly good to me.

 

[404250]

You're right, shotgun is obviously louder. Some people can shoot without protection for years with just a bit of damage. Others can have one very loud sound and suffer tinnitus for life.

 

[bastien]

I would suggest that the over loud door beeps could cause hearing damage or tinnitus if someone stood with an ear right next to the speaker (don't know where this is located though). So one health and safety issue solved, then a damages claim as a result?

It's official!

There are so many new trains coming on stream, we've actually run out of good reasons to criticise them.

 

[Darandio]

I would suggest that the over loud door beeps could cause hearing damage or tinnitus if someone stood with an ear right next to the speaker (don't know where this is located though). So one health and safety issue solved, then a damages claim as a result?

I would suggest that the criticism has now reached the point of ridiculousness.

 

[404250]

I like them.

Best thing is increase in table numbers which trumps the negatives. If you pick the right coach there's no underfloor engine so they're quiet.

 

[404250]

I was just making the point that the beep is FAR too loud and a reason to reduce it. Do others like it at that volume?

 

[jimm]

Some valid points there, but im sticking with my original thoughts, which is that the whole GWML project (Including the expensive construction and Agility consortium running them) was badly planned, badly executed and above all a waste of taxpayers money. Should have built a dedicated fleet of 5 car trains for Golden Vallley and Thames Valley services (didn't have to necessarily be the IET). The rest of the fleet should have been a full size diesel train 9-10 coaches based on the HST concept built to meet 21st century regulations, that is common sense, saving billions in electrification and endless disruption. With regards to empty seats in Cornwall, drop the fares, make it more attractive for people to leave the A38 and jump on a train, after all the Government are urging us to use more public transport, but at the same time scuppering the idea with high rail fares, short formed and packed trains (to which the IEP project will and has already added more misery) - bigger trains run empty some of the day because fares are too high and timetabling and connections do not make it preferable over taking the car. Our Railways have been battling roads since the Beeching/Marples sabotage of the 1960's, the industry has to do more to provide capacity and make it viable to use our railways again for everyone, not just the few who can afford to sell a kidney to buy an open return on the day between Exeter and Edinburgh.

Do you actually know anything about GWR's plans for services in the South West? Such as a two trains per hour frequency for the main line through Cornwall, with the IETs on London services supplemented by far more local/regional services including lots of the short HSTs, than there are in the current timetable. Providing more seats and far more choice of when to travel for passengers there.

It's official!

There are so many new trains coming on stream, we've actually run out of good reasons to criticise them.

Don't speak too soon.

The volume of the door beeper is a whole complaint, so even after what must now be 10 years of threads where people seem to have criticised anything and everything to do with the trains and the IEP project generally, there is still clearly scope for yet more criticism.

In the case of the beeper, it seems to be much the same volume as on the 180s to my ears.

 

[Thunderer]

802009 + 802011 on the 1B51 15:15 Paddington to Swansea tonight. First Class seats seem to have different covers on them and if anything, are slightly more comfortable than the 800's. One slight downside, the underfloor engines are slightly more noisy on acceleration than the 800's, Plus I did notice is the 802 makes some very strange noises (Like powering off a hoover in stages) when the train is slowing down to come into a station which I find a bit odd, as I haven't heard the 800 make that weird sound. Is there any technical reason for that?

 

[Domh245]

The first thing that comes to mind with the noise upon arrival at a station is brake cooling fans. The 800s mainly brake with friction brakes, whilst the 802s have rheostatic braking (which would require cooling)