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GWR Class 800

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Peter Mugridge

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Their numbers are too long and small. 800.003 is longer than 43003, and the coach numbers whats this 421003 six figured numbering thing about when 42003 would suffice? Then the units. 800.002, 800.302, 802.002 etc all end as 002 on the coach numbers so you know its unit 2 but of which class / batch?

Basically, they ran out of 5 digit sequences available for the individual carriage numbers, a situation not helped by the practice in the last few years of numbering carriages so that the last part of the number matches the unit number. In previous years they would just number everything sequentially within the carriage type range...

It hardly needs repeating that the railway is not run for the benefit of enthusiasts and besides it's one extra digit - not the end of the world. Moaning about the numbers won't even appear on the industry's radar, and why should it? Not sure why you've added a full stop in the middle of each unit number either?
 
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AlexNL

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Well, at least it's not something like...

93 70 802 107-1 GB-ERG

;)
 

samuelmorris

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He’s been doing so for over 4 years in this thread and unlikely to change now...
I don't really take issue with that. Away from the wires which is well over half the time at present, that's exactly what they are. To a traveller who exclusively uses the units further west than the electrification currently reaches, they're DMUs.
 

Dai Corner

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I don't really take issue with that. Away from the wires which is well over half the time at present, that's exactly what they are. To a traveller who exclusively uses the units further west than the electrification currently reaches, they're DMUs.

To a traveller who exclusively uses them in the electrified area they are EMUs. The majority of journeys probably cross the electrification boundary. So let's use the accepted term of bi-mode?
 

CptCharlee

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Had a journey on a couple of 800s today. And omg they are looking very tatty already... chips on the arm rests, seats dirty and worn and carpets looking worn too.

Very worrying for the length they have been in service. These where all 800s Bristol to London.
 

Bikeman78

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That's an easy question with a complicated answer.

Sometimes, this can be explained by standards: technical standards set by the EU, accessibility standards (EU PRM TSI, RVAR) and fire safety standards play a big role in modern train design. The loud beeps when a door is opening aren't just there for fun, they are an outcome of accessibility standards. Some materials are no longer used in the construction of trains, such as asbestos (health hazard). Fire safety regulations can also have an impact, soft cushions might no longer be allowed as they would burn too quickly.

I'm surprised that it's anything to do with the EU. None of the Belgian trains have endless announcements or ear splitting beeps when doors are released, not even the modern ones.
 

Bikeman78

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i

Your saying that every passenger wants an amazing experience with soft seats that won’t pass fire regulations, a buffet car which is a waste of space and a lot dislike it. Passenger feedback shows that when the 800 works reliably, people like them.

What's this obsession with seats catching fire? When was the last fatality involving a fire? The HST at Maidenhead 23 years ago I think. That fire was nothing to do with the seats and the unfortunate victim was killed because the carriage was filling with smoke and he jumped into the path of another train.

Anyway, I had a new experience travelling back to Cardiff today, I had to queue to go to the toilet. I walked three coaches and then gave in and waited by one of the engaged toilets. The train wasn't even particularly full.
 

samuelmorris

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I think the point is, if there's a fire somewhere else, the seats can't be sufficiently flammable that they exacerbate the issue. I'm all for fire regs, I just can't believe they come at the expense of any padding in seats nowadays, given fire retardant sofas have been around for decades.
 

Bikeman78

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I think the point is, if there's a fire somewhere else, the seats can't be sufficiently flammable that they exacerbate the issue. I'm all for fire regs, I just can't believe they come at the expense of any padding in seats nowadays, given fire retardant sofas have been around for decades.
What about all the plastic panels? I bet they will burn nicely. Assuming the fire starts from the engine or wiring, if you're still in the coach by the time the seats are on fire, you're a gonner. I suppose a vandal could set the seat alight but the chances of doing that undectected are slim.
 

AlexNL

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I'm surprised that it's anything to do with the EU. None of the Belgian trains have endless announcements or ear splitting beeps when doors are released, not even the modern ones.

The door bleep volume was just an example, many operators and train builders seem to go way above what the regulations require. Maybe it's wanting to overdo things? Here in the Netherlands, Arriva got a lot of criticism about the volume of the door bleeps after their new Stadler GTW was introduced in the Achterhoek region, and the volume was adjusted later on.

EU accessibility regulations require audio and visual announcements about the train's heading ("this is a service to Y") and next stop ("the next stop is Y") as well as the current stop ("we are now at Y"). The amount of drivel introduced on the British railways ("see it, say it, sorted", the entire calling pattern, safety information can be located next to the doors, this is a non smoking service, you must have a ticket or a validated Oyster card to travel on this service, and so on) is not in any EU regulation. Some of it might be in DfT or Railway Group standards, though...

Is that actually the correct 'european' number for an actual 802?

I don't think it is, actually. I've had a look at Wikipedia as well as the RSSB guidance and given it another go.

On a nine car Class 802 vehicle, this could be a correct EVN number:

93 70 8021 071-2 GB-ERG

93 = Electric EMU, high speed (> 190 km/h, there is no category for bimodes)
70 = Great Britain
802 = Class 802
107 = Set number
1 = first vehicle in the set (coach A)
2 = Check digit
GB = country where the vehicle is registered
ERG = Eversholt Rail Group, the holder of the vehicle

This is also how Eurostar e320 vehicles are numbered.

What about all the plastic panels? I bet they will burn nicely.
Not all plastics burn equally quickly.
 

swt_passenger

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Is that actually the correct 'european' number for an actual 802?
However, the long European Vehicle Numbers only apply (logically) to the individual vehicles. The usual fixed formation set number on the end of the unit, of 6 digits including the unit class, is a GB requirement, outside the scope of the rules, and is there for use in diagramming and movement recording.

I thought this was pretty clear from the group standard, (page 18) and it has been discussed on quite a few previous occasions: https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/RIS-2453-RST Iss 1.pdf

You’ll still be able to refer to them as 800xxx...
 
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AlexNL

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No it isn’t, the long European Vehicle Numbers only apply (logically) to the individual vehicles. The fixed formation set number, of 6 digits including the unit class, is a GB requirement, outside the scope of the rules, and is there for use in diagramming and movement recording.
Eurostar trains have incorporated the TOPS set number into the EVN, and use a sequence number to indicate the vehicle within a set.

The 6th vehicle of set 374 012 thus has this EVN number:
93 70 3740 126-5

374 = Eurostar e320
012 = Formation 12
6 = vehicle 6

As a Eurostar e320 train is formed of two sets of 8 vehicles, having 1 digit for the vehicle ID within the set is enough.

Mainland operators such as DB have also incorporated the set number into the unique vehicle number. For example, the restaurant vehicle of an ICE 3 with set number 4651 has the following vehicle number:
93 80 5406 351-7

5 = German rolling stock classification digit
406 = Baureihe 406
3 = Vehicle number
51 = Set number
 

swt_passenger

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The group standard clearly says that the “set number” is still only the 6 digits though. The rest is extra detail, a driver is still going to bring unit 800xxx into service...
 

AlexNL

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Which makes sense, no driver is going to bring just a single vehicle of a set into service :)

I think all railways operate like this. The Dutch railways at least do: all multiple units operated by NS have a 4 digit set number, of which the first two digits identify the class. The 4 digit set number isn't a standard though.
 

fgwrich

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i


These trains have been designed very well though have unfortunately come with too many teething problems. That said, they are nice trains to the commuter. The trolley range is going to be improved in a message from the boss about it to the GWR staff. They have amazing facilities, a well built kitchen, lovely built first class layout (not saying the seats are better) and the trolley means that the passengers who struggle to move or get disoriented can get it delivered right to their seat. The survey GWR carried out said that passengers prefer the trolley over the buffet.

Trains split for reasons, announcements would be made at stations and en route about the splitting and staff will be happy to carry over luggage and belongings.

Your saying that every passenger wants an amazing experience with soft seats that won’t pass fire regulations, a buffet car which is a waste of space and a lot dislike it. Passenger feedback shows that when the 800 works reliably, people like them.

I would still like to see all this evidence that "Customers prefer a trolley over the buffet / An At Seat Service" etc. As from a lot of the experiences that I've had over the past year, and speaking to a lot of the staff that I have, are all of the opinion that passengers actually prefer a Buffet Counter - This comes from passenger comments and complaints, of which there are a lot of. I also have to question what was put into the survey about the trolley service - They might have liked an "At Seat Trolley Service" if the impression they had received was that it would have been better than what is on offer. What is on offer at the moment is frankly p*ss poor compared to that provided by a buffet car. As I've said before, Catering revenue is down as a result of the trolleys units, in part thanks to the very limited provisions that the trolleys from these units can provide. And we only have to go back less than 10 years previously, when previous surveys said that "Passengers prefer a trolley service" over a Buffet car - and proved that unsuccessful that the the Mini Buffets were created.

As for the Buffet Car being a waste of space, When? When it's locked out of use on short services like the Oxford Fasts then yes. But take any Peak Hour HST service out of Paddington and you will see that it's actually a very popular space, with a lot of passengers who enjoy the presence and space of a buffet car to have a beer or grab a snack with. So Passengers disliking the "Wasted Buffet Car Space" is something I completely disagree with. I even remember a conversation occurring at the Buffet Car back in January from regular commuters about how sorry they were to lose the feature and how nice it was. I didn't even need to speak say anything.

Trains Split at stations... staff happy to carry over luggage and belongings. Again, A, If you have the staff available and B, if you have the time to do so. However, it should hardly be necessary in this day and age.

In short regarding the buffet counter issue, an East Coast style Mini Buffet / Counter should have at least have been provided on the 9 cars. Quite possibly even the 5 cars.
 

Bornin1980s

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What's this obsession with seats catching fire? When was the last fatality involving a fire? The HST at Maidenhead 23 years ago I think. That fire was nothing to do with the seats and the unfortunate victim was killed because the carriage was filling with smoke and he jumped into the path of another train.
You're forgetting the inferno at Ladbroke Grove.
 

Master29

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I would still like to see all this evidence that "Customers prefer a trolley over the buffet / An At Seat Service" etc. As from a lot of the experiences that I've had over the past year, and speaking to a lot of the staff that I have, are all of the opinion that passengers actually prefer a Buffet Counter - This comes from passenger comments and complaints, of which there are a lot of. I also have to question what was put into the survey about the trolley service - They might have liked an "At Seat Trolley Service" if the impression they had received was that it would have been better than what is on offer. What is on offer at the moment is frankly p*ss poor compared to that provided by a buffet car. As I've said before, Catering revenue is down as a result of the trolleys units, in part thanks to the very limited provisions that the trolleys from these units can provide. And we only have to go back less than 10 years previously, when previous surveys said that "Passengers prefer a trolley service" over a Buffet car - and proved that unsuccessful that the the Mini Buffets were created.

As for the Buffet Car being a waste of space, When? When it's locked out of use on short services like the Oxford Fasts then yes. But take any Peak Hour HST service out of Paddington and you will see that it's actually a very popular space, with a lot of passengers who enjoy the presence and space of a buffet car to have a beer or grab a snack with. So Passengers disliking the "Wasted Buffet Car Space" is something I completely disagree with. I even remember a conversation occurring at the Buffet Car back in January from regular commuters about how sorry they were to lose the feature and how nice it was. I didn't even need to speak say anything.

Trains Split at stations... staff happy to carry over luggage and belongings. Again, A, If you have the staff available and B, if you have the time to do so. However, it should hardly be necessary in this day and age.

In short regarding the buffet counter issue, an East Coast style Mini Buffet / Counter should have at least have been provided on the 9 cars. Quite possibly even the 5 cars.
The daft did what they wanted which was no buffet so whether there was a survey or not is immaterial seeing as they weren`t going to listen to anyone. The 802 is another matter as these weren`t specified by the daft. A big own goal from GWR here and as you say, where is the evidence of this survey.
 

w1bbl3

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What about all the plastic panels? I bet they will burn nicely. Assuming the fire starts from the engine or wiring, if you're still in the coach by the time the seats are on fire, you're a gonner. I suppose a vandal could set the seat alight but the chances of doing that undectected are slim.

The standard in question (EN 45545-2) is actually for all elements within the vehicle. The seat element is meant to simulate a lit newspaper on the seat base.
 

FGW_DID

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The daft did what they wanted which was no buffet so whether there was a survey or not is immaterial seeing as they weren`t going to listen to anyone. The 802 is another matter as these weren`t specified by the daft. A big own goal from GWR here and as you say, where is the evidence of this survey.

Did you miss post #8730 from CY who is quite involved with the GWR IETs or just choose to ignore it? Just in case here it is again:

If they had a different interior the DfT would not have approved the 802 sets for GWR.

They were totally obsessed about the interiors on the 802 sets being exactly the same as what they had specified for the 800 sets.
 

broadgage

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Did you just call the IETs DMUs?

Yes I did.
They are multiple units. They are equipped with underfloor diesel engines. For the vast majority of the route mileage served they are powered by these diesel engines.
Theretofore it seems reasonable to refer to them as DMUs.

Advocates of the new trains dislike the term "DMU" because the average non technical rail passenger tends to associate DMUs with a downgrade to shorter trains and reduced on board facilities.
 

PHILIPE

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Well maybe , but Plymouth certainly isn't ready for 5 cars on a Friday afternoon and it's a far longer journey from penzance to london than it is from Cheltenham. Priorities seem to be a bit skewed at present........

I think there may have
I would still like to see all this evidence that "Customers prefer a trolley over the buffet / An At Seat Service" etc. As from a lot of the experiences that I've had over the past year, and speaking to a lot of the staff that I have, are all of the opinion that passengers actually prefer a Buffet Counter - This comes from passenger comments and complaints, of which there are a lot of. I also have to question what was put into the survey about the trolley service - They might have liked an "At Seat Trolley Service" if the impression they had received was that it would have been better than what is on offer. What is on offer at the moment is frankly p*ss poor compared to that provided by a buffet car. As I've said before, Catering revenue is down as a result of the trolleys units, in part thanks to the very limited provisions that the trolleys from these units can provide. And we only have to go back less than 10 years previously, when previous surveys said that "Passengers prefer a trolley service" over a Buffet car - and proved that unsuccessful that the the Mini Buffets were created.

As for the Buffet Car being a waste of space, When? When it's locked out of use on short services like the Oxford Fasts then yes. But take any Peak Hour HST service out of Paddington and you will see that it's actually a very popular space, with a lot of passengers who enjoy the presence and space of a buffet car to have a beer or grab a snack with. So Passengers disliking the "Wasted Buffet Car Space" is something I completely disagree with. I even remember a conversation occurring at the Buffet Car back in January from regular commuters about how sorry they were to lose the feature and how nice it was. I didn't even need to speak say anything.

Trains Split at stations... staff happy to carry over luggage and belongings. Again, A, If you have the staff available and B, if you have the time to do so. However, it should hardly be necessary in this day and age.

In short regarding the buffet counter issue, an East Coast style Mini Buffet / Counter should have at least have been provided on the 9 cars. Quite possibly even the 5 cars.

Surveys are very often designed to get the the answer that is required.
 

jimm

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5 vice 10 has been regular since the new trains started - it has improved, but is not exactly rare (1733 Padd-Weston is so formed as I write).

You persist with this "all is wonderful, nothing to see here" routine, despite all the evidence to the contrary. It's all very well Hitachi having delivered 34 of the 36 800/0s, but they should have done that back in February (8 months late and counting) and they should have delivered the last 800/3 in July (3 months late and counting).

Your post neatly illustrates what I was saying - one formation is short-formed and is immediately pounced on as proof of some huge issue still affecting multiple services all day, every day. A state of affairs that could indeed be described as routine, or regular.

But that's not what's happening now. You grudgingly concede there has been some improvement. I'd call the odd short-form a distinct improvement on days when there were multiple diagrams operating through an entire day with just a five-car set instead of a 2x5.

I have never denied that short-forming was happening - anyone can see that it happens by looking at Journeycheck, but it has never been routine, regular, a matter of course, a deliberate systematic policy, or anything else of the sort.

All I - and others - have tried to do explain some of the things going on that were causing the situation, not least delays to the initial training problem (something that is still causing issues, as noted by Clarence Yard only yesterday) and the delayed delivery of the five-cars 800s.

That is not saying "all is wonderful, nothing to see here" - just an attempt to counter the endless tide of negativity from you and others, whether you like it or not.

As has been noted I don't know how many times now in this thread, HSTs broke down on occasion over many years.

They still do - like yesterday morning on the Cotswold Line.

If the issue was at Paddington, faulty Bristol, South Wales and West Country HSTs got replaced by sets taken off Oxford/Cotswold Line services, with those services then 'short-formed' by a 180 or Turbo stand-in. Nothing new under the sun and all that.

But I don't suppose you were bothering to look out for three coaches instead of eight on an Oxford service or five instead of eight on a Worcester train, were you?

Yes I did.
They are multiple units. They are equipped with underfloor diesel engines. For the vast majority of the route mileage served they are powered by these diesel engines.
Theretofore it seems reasonable to refer to them as DMUs.

Advocates of the new trains dislike the term "DMU" because the average non technical rail passenger tends to associate DMUs with a downgrade to shorter trains and reduced on board facilities.

It was long-standing practice to refer to the Southern Region's units with electrical transmissions as demus, to differentiate them from the designs with mechanical and hydraulic transmissions used elsewhere in the country - referred to as dmus.

On that basis, the 80x trains are demus when operation is in diesel mode.

And as you have indicated, the only reason you refer to them as dmus is because you think it is pejorative and puts the 80xs on a par with something like a 1950s BR dmu. How, er, amusing... just another repetitive element of your repetitive posts here and elsewhere.
 
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Rob F

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It was long-standing practice to refer to the Southern Region's units with electrical transmissions as demus, to differentiate them from the designs with mechanical and hydraulic transmissions used elsewhere in the country - referred to as dmus.

On that basis, the 80x trains are demus when operation is in diesel mode.

And as you have indicated, the only reason you refer to them as dmus is because you think it is pejorative and puts the 80xs on a par with something like a 1950s BR dmu. How, er, amusing... just another repetitive element of your repetitive posts here and elsewhere.
Any more repetitive than your excessively oversensitive reaction to any criticism of these trains?
 

jimm

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Any more repetitive than your excessively oversensitive reaction to any criticism of these trains?

I didn't realise it was not permitted to respond to the endless (and all too often repetitive) criticism - which has been going on for a lot longer than 12 months.

It must be at least a decade now and has included such side-splitters along the way as how the 26-metre coaches would dash themselves to pieces on every platform, bridge and tunnel west of Paddington, and how passengers would be unable to scale the mountainous slope in the floors...
 

coppercapped

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You're forgetting the inferno at Ladbroke Grove.
I noticed that as well but nevertheless I don't think it is strictly relevant to the issue of fire-resistant seats.
The inferno at Ladbroke Grove was the result of the power car's fuel tanks rupturing releasing an aerosol of diesel fuel which then ignited. The intensity of such a blaze meant that the presence or absence of inflammable seat stuffing made very little difference.
 
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