It’s a bit more than criticism though, it’s constant moaning for 12 months straight.
GWR needed the 802's to be able to cascade trains to other places and provide improvements or capacity enhancements there. Ordering anything other than more Hitachi EDMU's would have taken longer and would've made the entire operation more complex.As above, the 800s are sadly the DfTs fault. The 802s are GWRs own goal.
Did you miss post #8730 from CY who is quite involved with the GWR IETs or just choose to ignore it? Just in case here it is again:
I find it surprising that there aren't enough HST's left to substitute for failed 8XX's, rather than sending out short forms. Perhaps they're sending them off lease too quickly.
But that's outside GWRs control.
ScotRail have signed the lease for the HSTs, so GWR have to send them off lease.
There isn't the stabling/maintenace capacity for the HSTs, OOC is virtually non existent, and Landore is virtually closed, therefore all the heavy maintenance has to be carried out at Laira.
Scotrail aren't leasing all of them !
Presumably DafT didn't want the poor specification of the 800s potentially shown up by a TOC specifying something better.As Clarence Yard stated before: the DfT wouldn't have agreed to that batch of trains if the interior fittings of the 802's was different from the 800's. This would've meant that the improvements in other places wouldn't have happened either.
Sarcasm I think!Erm, I think it might have been a joke!
As above, the 800s are sadly the DfTs fault. The 802s are GWRs own goal.
As Clarence Yard stated before: the DfT wouldn't have agreed to that batch of trains if the interior fittings of the 802's was different from the 800's.
"The number of short forms has fallen almost to zero" - not strictly 100% true. I had a 5 coach 800 on the 18:29 off Newport to Swansea two weeks ago on a Friday and it was rammed. Got myself the only 1st Class seat left, full and standing in standard class. Tonight, both the 21:10 and 22:14 services to Swansea off Bristol Parkway are 5 coaches. They'll be "nice and cosy" on a Sunday evening out of Paddington, packed to the rafters. It really was a daft idea to build express trains in 5 car units and while the issues of this happening will ease over time, it will never be totally erradicated.Please stop claiming short forms are "routine".
I think I've suggested it before now, but it really is time you looked up the dictionary definition of routine - or just stopped using the word incorrectly.
Since Hitachi finally made 34 to the 36 five-car Class 800 available for passenger service a few weeks ago, the number of short forms has fallen almost to zero, as there is now some sort of making for faults or routine maintenance.
Perhaps you haven't noticed this, or couldn't care lees, as it would mean you would have to come up with a whole new script - here and on another forum, where you keep repeating the same old lines over and over (which, father_jack, is why some people are so bored with broadgage).
On the last four journeys I have made on Class 800s, the digital seat reservation system has been working fine, which wasn't the case earlier in the year.
No but the counter argument of "there effectively aren't any short forms any more" seems demonstrably false, from the anecdotal evidence I've seen.We get it, there are still shortforms happening! These trains aren’t diagrammed for 5 cars, they are diagrammed as 10. If all the units were available from Hitachi, they would be running as the full 10.
Is it really that hard to grasp?
We get it, there are still shortforms happening! These trains aren’t diagrammed for 5 cars, they are diagrammed as 10. If all the units were available from Hitachi, they would be running as the full 10.
Is it really that hard to grasp?
"The number of short forms has fallen almost to zero" - not strictly 100% true. I had a 5 coach 800 on the 18:29 off Newport to Swansea two weeks ago on a Friday and it was rammed. Got myself the only 1st Class seat left, full and standing in standard class. Tonight, both the 21:10 and 22:14 services to Swansea off Bristol Parkway are 5 coaches. They'll be "nice and cosy" on a Sunday evening out of Paddington, packed to the rafters. It really was a daft idea to build express trains in 5 car units and while the issues of this happening will ease over time, it will never be totally erradicated.
No but the counter argument of "there effectively aren't any short forms any more" seems demonstrably false, from the anecdotal evidence I've seen.
The only reason this discussion drags on and is so difficult is the hard & fast attitude taken on both sides.
the acceleration is considerably better despite being geared for higher top speed,
Indeed, and the 395 isn't lugging diesel engines around.They're both geared for 140mph, aren't they?
As apposed to constantly praising them as if they were the best thing to hit the rails and completely dis-allow any reasonable criticism of them?
As above, the 800s are sadly the DfTs fault. The 802s are GWRs own goal.
What I also find amusing with this whole project and affair is that it IS possible to design modern trains around the best features of a Mk3. I know that, because that's exactly what Irish Rail did when lead by Dick Fearn when they replaced their Mk3 fleet with the 22000 DMUs. They had the designers look over the Mk3s and I believe conduct real surveys into what Irish Rail passengers wanted. All of the feedback was then fed back into the design and the result was a spacious, light and bright InterCity DMU which included a buffet counter on the longer distance sets. The funny thing about this, is that the company responsible is the same company that born us the Voyager and the 800. The 800s I'll have to just about live with, even if they are frankly not up to scratch as a HST replacement (Quality wise). It's the 802s that I remain highly not impressed with.
As for rubbing your hands with glee for a HST fault on the Cotswolds yesterday. Yes, HSTs fail. Yes, they are old. But could that fault have been detected or prevented if the HST had been berthed in a depot overnight? The 800s seem to have a much more cosy life than the workhorses of the HSTs, with certain mileage per day diagrams and ending up at a Hitachi Depot per night for a service, but the units are still recording issues in service and a fair chunk seem to be software based. For a train that has supposed to have spent well over 2 years in testing before being released to the general public last year, to have undergone over 60 updates and still be having issues, and is still arriving late into service, questions should rightly be raised. And promises and expectations should be questioned. And Given the issue with the 385s, Hitachi have quite rightly now got a mountain to climb to appear reputable again if they want to win further orders in the future.
On the other hand, the 395 is lugging around an extra pair of bogies. Length-for-length the 800 seems to win this one.Indeed, and the 395 isn't lugging diesel engines around.
don't forget that extra pair of bogies also carts around an additional set of traction motors.On the other hand, the 395 is lugging around an extra pair of bogies. Length-for-length the 800 seems to win this one.
It seems the lessons from 18 years ago have NOT been learnt that 5 coach trains on inter city services are totally & utterly useless
How is daring to or explain things or question or put counter-arguments to the constant tide of criticism - much of it, yes, repetitive, ignoring frequent attempts that have been made to explain things - supposed to amount to 'constant praise'?
I appreciate that some people don't like the seats, to take one example, but that does not mean that they would like any alternative installation either, does it? Especially given that almost any and every type of seat used on a train in this country for the past four decades is either the best or worst thing ever devised, depending on whose posts you read on this forum.
And perhaps you should read back over the 10 years or so of threads about the IEP project and the resulting trains on this forum and consider some of the things said in them before suggesting that much of what has been said is reasonable.
If Ireland had the traffic volumes the UK does, I have a suspicion they too might just adopt a different approach to interior design on their trains.
Why anyone would expect the 802s to have been radically different from the 800s beats me. The part of the GWR HST fleet nominally allocated to West Country services has always interworked on other routes and the 802s are going to be no different, so some sort of one-off interior was not going to happen.
I was not 'rubbing my hands with glee' over Saturday's incident, simply pointing out that HSTs still can and do run into trouble, as a counterpoint to people instantly seizing upon any and every issue with an IET as some sort of 'proof' of something.
In the case of Saturday's incident, it apparently involved a bird or animal strike affecting brake equipment on the leading power car. It may just be something about West Oxfordshire, as a 180 was disabled at Charlbury when a pigeon strike affected the brakes some years ago.
I seem to recall a recent incident involving an 802 near Devon instantly led to speculation about some sort of fatal flaw with the design of the IET. In the case of the HST, it's apparently just one of those things...
Outstabling of an IET overnight at Worcester started some weeks ago. So far as I know it hasn't refused to play ball starting up in the mornings, despite not getting a dose of mollycoddling by Hitachi engineers.