Platform 15 and 16 project at Manchester Piccadilly.

[randyrippley]

That true but laying 1 mile of any sort of track in 3 months with only basic tools is very impressive. Local to me the mile or so Wibsey electric tramway was done in just 6 months including the concrete bed. I've seen a picture of them mixing the concrete by hand on a huge board. All this machinery now and things seem to take forever.
K

to be honest, by the standards of the time its slow.
Consider Preston-Lancaster: 20 miles of heavy train track including earthworks, 37 months from enabling Act to opening.Many were faster

 

[Goldie]

The additional services since May are causing horrendous overcrowding on Oxford Roads centre platform.

We had another scary episode last night caused by a failed train in 2. Platform and overbridge rammed with passengers and several services being transferred to 1 at short notice. Very close to people actually falling off the platforms or being crushed on the bridge steps. How long can this go on with nothing being done?

That's my take on it too. Someone is going to die or be seriously injured. The number of people using 13 and 14 at Piccadilly is just unsafe, regardless of what improveents to signalling might be possible. It sounds like Oxford Road is just as bad. 13 and 14 are effectively useless to the very young, the elderly or people with limited mobility during the peaks. It must be incredibly unpleasant to work there as platform staff.

 

[superkev]

That's my take on it too. Someone is going to die or be seriously injured. The number of people using 13 and 14 at Piccadilly is just unsafe, regardless of what improveents to signalling might be possible. It sounds like Oxford Road is just as bad. 13 and 14 are effectively useless to the very young, the elderly or people with limited mobility during the peaks. It must be incredibly unpleasant to work there as platform staff.

13 14 an accident on waiting. When someone does get hurt I'm sure to show they where doing something another consultants study would be appointed.
K

 

[Mogster]

The centre platforms at Oxford Road are rammed by 16:15, then there’s 2 freight trains timetabled East and West it’s like being walled in by moving metal, the noise is incredible...

Trains were very busy today, the poor service since May doesn’t seem to be putting people off which I have expected to happen. The guard announced the 10 minute delay we had today was due to unusually high numbers of passengers... Hmmm. My concern is that if replacement stock is introduced without an increase in capacity and it creates a perception that the service is improving then passenger numbers will also increase worsening the overcrowding.

 

[a_c_skinner]

A small fortune has been spent on Thameslink. That is the solution on the cross Manchester lines.

 

[Mogster]

It is ridiculous that services have almost 20 minutes timetabled from arriving at Salford Crescent to clearing Piccadilly. It’s 3 miles...

 

[Roose]

Perhaps if every time anyone who experiences a crush situation at Piccadilly or Oxford Road were to write to the Secretary of State for Transport, copying it to the Chief Executive of Network Rail and their MP citing "potential tragedy" or similar then the possibility of predictable disaster would slowly get through.

Outrage on an Internet forum only counts for so much; people taking the trouble to write a letter with an MP receiving a copy is likely to have a greater impact.

 

[edwin_m]

Pleasantly surprised that my 0937 arrival from Nottingham this morning was on time with no signal stops approaching Piccadilly. 22 late out on the way back this evening though...

Apologies if I'm repeating a previous report I didn't notice, but the demolition of the shelters is virtually complete and there is now marked out a "waiting zone" bounded by red lines along the former building line, a "boarding zone" between the red and the existing yellow lines, and yellow crosshatching by the foot of the stairs. The announcements now say that people for the next train should move into the boarding zone and others should remain in the waiting zone. I think this is progress, although doing this for 13b and 14b is questionable as they are so rarely used - their boarding zones could just be used to enlarge the waiting zone for the opposite platform. Kudos also to the NR people who were making a valiant effort to keep passengers informed, when by their own admission they had no more information than the departure screen and announcements.

There seem to be even more seats in the "lounge" now, which along with the people staring at the departure screens are blocking the passenger flow even more effectively than before.

 

[Killingworth]

Apart from the position of doors in carriages, the way boarders swarm around the doors delays those getting out. On some overcrowded trains that's compounded when some of the packed sardines have to get out to let others through, then get back in again!

Passengers with reservations then get confused and take time spotting where their carriages is, fondly expecting that when they find it they'll be able to get in, at the right end, and find their seat - then find it occupied. That's assuming the train is fully formed and their designated carriage exists.

Somebody should make a 24 hour time lapse film of 13 and 14 - maybe they already have, but dare it be made public?

 

[randyrippley]

Off the wall idea but anything is worth considering.........
how about closing the through platforms at Piccadilly to passengers. Build a conveyor belt (travelator???) from Piccadilly to Oxford Rd, and use the four platforms there instead? There is more room at Oxford Rd to deal with the crush

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Off the wall idea but anything is worth considering.........
how about closing the through platforms at Piccadilly to passengers. Build a conveyor belt (travelator???) from Piccadilly to Oxford Rd, and use the four platforms there instead? There is more room at Oxford Rd to deal with the crush

What is the distance that such a travelator between those two railway stations would have to travel and what are the estimated costs and construction time are envisaged for providing such an enclosed weather-proof system?

 

[Altfish]

Off the wall idea but anything is worth considering.........
how about closing the through platforms at Piccadilly to passengers. Build a conveyor belt (travelator???) from Piccadilly to Oxford Rd, and use the four platforms there instead? There is more room at Oxford Rd to deal with the crush

It'd be easier and cheaper to build Platforms 15/16.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

It'd be easier and cheaper to build Platforms 15/16.

And it was examined (as well as closing Oxford Road Station and reversing the belts) very early in Manchester Hub days, before it became Northern Hub. It is too long to be attractive - a spur southwards off the Metrolink would make more sense (but only as far as Circle Square; I don't wish to restart the Oxford Road Tram Debate)

 

[Chester1]

Pleasantly surprised that my 0937 arrival from Nottingham this morning was on time with no signal stops approaching Piccadilly. 22 late out on the way back this evening though...

Apologies if I'm repeating a previous report I didn't notice, but the demolition of the shelters is virtually complete and there is now marked out a "waiting zone" bounded by red lines along the former building line, a "boarding zone" between the red and the existing yellow lines, and yellow crosshatching by the foot of the stairs. The announcements now say that people for the next train should move into the boarding zone and others should remain in the waiting zone. I think this is progress, although doing this for 13b and 14b is questionable as they are so rarely used - their boarding zones could just be used to enlarge the waiting zone for the opposite platform. Kudos also to the NR people who were making a valiant effort to keep passengers informed, when by their own admission they had no more information than the departure screen and announcements.

There seem to be even more seats in the "lounge" now, which along with the people staring at the departure screens are blocking the passenger flow even more effectively than before.

An extension of the upstairs waiting area would be a very good idea regardless of whether platforms 15 and 16 are built. The amount of waiting space, the level of comfort and flow of people all need to be improved. There should be enough space on 13 and 14 if people only wait there for 5 minutes.

 

[Senex]

An extension of the upstairs waiting area would be a very good idea regardless of whether platforms 15 and 16 are built. The amount of waiting space, the level of comfort and flow of people all need to be improved. There should be enough space on 13 and 14 if people only wait there for 5 minutes.

Five minutes' wait would be fine if these were just S-Bahn (Thameslink) platforms. But they are also InterCity platforms where people need to wait for longer (many of us would never trust a system of waiting in a lounge above or away from the platform and just hoping to be called in good time). These platforms are a disgrace as provision for inter-city services in a major city. The only answer is the proper rebuild with the provision of 15 and 16, but, as others have said, it's beginning to look as though it's going to need a fatal accident to get our lords and masters in London to take notice and respond to a very clear—and predicted—need.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Five minutes' wait would be fine if these were just S-Bahn (Thameslink) platforms. But they are also InterCity platforms where people need to wait for longer (many of us would never trust a system of waiting in a lounge above or away from the platform and just hoping to be called in good time). These platforms are a disgrace as provision for inter-city services in a major city. The only answer is the proper rebuild with the provision of 15 and 16, but, as others have said, it's beginning to look as though it's going to need a fatal accident to get our lords and masters in London to take notice and respond to a very clear—and predicted—need.

This post neatly raises a point that seems to have had relatively little discussion, namely the level of facilities to be provided in the future on the new westbound Platforms 15 & 16 and the re-purposed normally unidirectional eastbound Platforms 13 & 14.
We might note the ‘model’ of London Bridge in terms of current design thinking, with minimal facilities on the platforms but toilets, refreshments, etc. at a different level.
Although I was initially reluctant to use the lounge area at Manchester Piccadilly I have got used to it since the May timetable change and it does seem to work reasonably well. I have not noticed anybody missing a train because they were at the wrong level yet. The updated information system seems to be fairly reliable.
Does anybody know if the notional design of the new platforms includes comprehensive facilities on each island?

 

[Killingworth]

This post neatly raises a point that seems to have had relatively little discussion, namely the level of facilities to be provided in the future on the new westbound Platforms 15 & 16 and the re-purposed normally unidirectional eastbound Platforms 13 & 14.
We might note the ‘model’ of London Bridge in terms of current design thinking, with minimal facilities on the platforms but toilets, refreshments, etc. at a different level.
Although I was initially reluctant to use the lounge area at Manchester Piccadilly I have got used to it since the May timetable change and it does seem to work reasonably well. I have not noticed anybody missing a train because they were at the wrong level yet. The updated information system seems to be fairly reliable.
Does anybody know if the notional design of the new platforms includes comprehensive facilities on each island?

Network Rail tend to build the basic, functional part of a track based upgrade, leaving that sort of stuff to the TOC responsible for managing the stations. They can be parsimonious, especially Northern with 478 to manage! However, Piccadilly is one of Network Rail's handful of 20 stations and as they're the busiest in the country they tend to get better treatment - once built. Still find New Street platforms bleak and uninviting despite all the retail space above.

 

[Ianno87]

Part of the whole point is to disincentivise passengers from heading to their platform a long time in advance of their train - keep them up/downstairs with the station facilities.

Platform 13/14 before construction of the satellite lounge were abysmal for passenger circulation, with people standing around blocking those going for their trains.

 

[kevjs]

... the whole point is to disincentivise passengers from heading to their platform a long time in advance of their train ...

Provide more seating in the lounge then - when travelling through I'd rather stand with my bags on the platform rather than stand until an unknown amount of time before departure and then go downstairs. If there was some spare seating it might be more attractive to wait upstairs!

 

[a_c_skinner]

Make a better waiting area, much, much better and put the ticket checks so as to restrict people until their train is due(ish).

But really the only solution is a Thameslink type programme which will sort out the whole corridor at considerable cost, which seems good enough for London but not Manchester.

 

[AndrewE]

But really the only solution is a Thameslink type programme which will sort out the whole corridor at considerable cost, which seems good enough for London but not Manchester.

I was impressed by the Thameslink rolling stock last week: Brand new 12 and 8-coach electric trains running all day would be wonderful up here in the north but, like you, I can't see London allowing that sort of investment for anywhere in the provinces!

 

[Mogster]

I’ve been commuting from Wigan to South Manchester using the Castlefield corridor for 20 years, the service is now the worst I’ve experienced.

Up to this year we were overcrowded and the stock was very old but but peak time punctuality wasn’t actually that bad. For a couple of years previously the TPE service from Oxford Road to WNW was infrequent and very overcrowded but air conditioned and fast. From May that has been withdrawn so it’s back to the slow and overcrowded Atherton and Bolton services with ancient stock. It seems impossible for the Castlefield corridor services to run as timetable now, the 156s that have appeared more regularly are an improvement on the 142s and 150s but they take sooo long for people to get on and off when busy. As well as the Oxford Road and Piccadilly platform improvements Northern desperately needs a big order of standard Metro type stock, current capacity is clearly inadequate, I can’t see this happening though.

A more frequent service from Oxford Road to WNW via Chat Moss would seem a sensible idea, it could use the bay Plaform at Oxford Road maybe. That way it wouldn’t be adding to the overcrowding on the centre platforms at Oxford Road and the 13 & 14 congestion.

 

[Chester1]

Make a better waiting area, much, much better and put the ticket checks so as to restrict people until their train is due(ish).

But really the only solution is a Thameslink type programme which will sort out the whole corridor at considerable cost, which seems good enough for London but not Manchester.

I was impressed by the Thameslink rolling stock last week: Brand new 12 and 8-coach electric trains running all day would be wonderful up here in the north but, like you, I can't see London allowing that sort of investment for anywhere in the provinces!

I’ve been commuting from Wigan to South Manchester using the Castlefield corridor for 20 years, the service is now the worst I’ve experienced.

Up to this year we were overcrowded and the stock was very old but but peak time punctuality wasn’t actually that bad. For a couple of years previously the TPE service from Oxford Road to WNW was infrequent and very overcrowded but air conditioned and fast. From May that has been withdrawn so it’s back to the slow and overcrowded Atherton and Bolton services with ancient stock. It seems impossible for the Castlefield corridor services to run as timetable now, the 156s that have appeared more regularly are an improvement on the 142s and 150s but they take sooo long for people to get on and off when busy. As well as the Oxford Road and Piccadilly platform improvements Northern desperately needs a big order of standard Metro type stock, current capacity is clearly inadequate, I can’t see this happening though.

A more frequent service from Oxford Road to WNW via Chat Moss would seem a sensible idea, it could use the bay Plaform at Oxford Road maybe. That way it wouldn’t be adding to the overcrowding on the centre platforms at Oxford Road and the 13 & 14 congestion.

I agree the goal should be to move towards Thameslink but that is not recent policy. The delay is not just a north-south funding thing, there doesn't seem to agreement on what should the Castlefield corridor is for. The chord spending was justified by diverting TPE services that cross the station throat but its clear that it was a bad idea. The chord was worth it as a way of connecting Calder Valley and Victoria with Piccadilly but Northern services should use it. In terms of rolling stock the 195s and 331s should be the main services using 13 and 14 - short and medium distance services run by units with doors at thirds. ETCS would help too and force the removal of old stock. The latest review seems to be about 15tph using 13 and 14, which is doable with an extension of the lounge, ETCS and a ban on end door units. I am not sure DfT or TfN would be prepared to make the necessary changes to services to do it.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Considerably longer trains would help alighting and boarding as well as adding to comfort.

 

[_toommm_]

A system like Northern have at Blackpool North may work. Have a human barrier and call out trains ten or so minutes before their timed departure. This way it stops a crush, but of course this would require better waiting facilities up stairs.

I for one am guilty of going down to the platform way before my train is due so I can position myself to get on my Cl350 in the right place.

 

[Chester1]

A system like Northern have at Blackpool North may work. Have a human barrier and call out trains ten or so minutes before their timed departure. This way it stops a crush, but of course this would require better waiting facilities up stairs.

I for one am guilty of going down to the platform way before my train is due so I can position myself to get on my Cl350 in the right place.

Doubling the size of the lounge would probably be a fraction of the cost of building 15 and 16. As you have pointed out boarding would need to be controlled by staff as many people sinply refuse to wait upstairs and wouldn't change behaviour if the capacity and facilities are improved. Its not unreasonable to expect anyone of normal mobility to wait upstairs until the train before has departed to save £200m on building extra platforms. 12tph should be possible with better management and more suitable rolling stock. Major investment will be needed at some point but the current infrastructure is poorly managed. For instance it is staggering that there is not a "next train to Manchester Airport" electronic board.

 

[_toommm_]

Doubling the size of the lounge would probably be a fraction of the cost of building 15 and 16. As you have pointed out boarding would need to be controlled by staff as many people sinply refuse to wait upstairs and wouldn't change behaviour if the capacity and facilities are improved. Its not unreasonable to expect anyone of normal mobility to wait upstairs until the train before has departed to save £200m on building extra platforms. 12tph should be possible with better management and more suitable rolling stock. Major investment will be needed at some point but the current infrastructure is poorly managed. For instance it is staggering that there is not a "next train to Manchester Airport" electronic board.

Or a 'does the Manchester Airport train have a guard and driver, and will it get curtailed at Piccadilly?' board.

 

[gazzaa2]

That's my take on it too. Someone is going to die or be seriously injured. The number of people using 13 and 14 at Piccadilly is just unsafe, regardless of what improveents to signalling might be possible. It sounds like Oxford Road is just as bad. 13 and 14 are effectively useless to the very young, the elderly or people with limited mobility during the peaks. It must be incredibly unpleasant to work there as platform staff.

It's bad enough when services are running to time. Factor in inevitable delays and cancellations and it's horrendous.

It's totally inadequate as are the trains themselves.

 

[Altfish]

An extension of the upstairs waiting area would be a very good idea regardless of whether platforms 15 and 16 are built. The amount of waiting space, the level of comfort and flow of people all need to be improved. There should be enough space on 13 and 14 if people only wait there for 5 minutes.

People change trains on Platforms 13/14. Probably not as often now we have the Ordsall Chord but I do it often. e.g. Catch a train from the Airport and then change to East Midlands trains. I don't want to go up to a lounge so I wait on the platform. I catch trains from Oxford Road and board the Edinburgh/Glasgow trains. Again I wait on the platform.

 

[Altfish]

Doubling the size of the lounge would probably be a fraction of the cost of building 15 and 16. As you have pointed out boarding would need to be controlled by staff as many people simply refuse to wait upstairs and wouldn't change behaviour if the capacity and facilities are improved. Its not unreasonable to expect anyone of normal mobility to wait upstairs until the train before has departed to save £200m on building extra platforms. 12tph should be possible with better management and more suitable rolling stock. Major investment will be needed at some point but the current infrastructure is poorly managed. For instance it is staggering that there is not a "next train to Manchester Airport" electronic board.

Again, we are tinkering round the edge and delaying the inevitable. I don't want to hang around in a departure lounge, I want to watch the trains. I dislike Eurostar because of this system.
I'm not sure where this cheap super lounge would go though - maybe we have the solution to Mayfield.