West Lothian buses

[In Focus]

Tell you what guys reading through the thread , there are some ignorant ill informed comments, not all I must stress I’ve worked for first for a fair number of years , and now work for the green busses and have a fair knowledge off both I just can’t tolerate some off the drivel in this thread . Knowing what I know I shall hang my rail uk forum hat up and keep working away till they tell me I don’t have a job anymore , enjoy your forum guys , I’m out

That's a shame ,debate is always good and without it and different views the World would be a worse place.

 

[Driver362]

Totally agree but when people are spouting uneducated nonsense as fact it gets a bit much to stomach some of the comments are ridiculous, to read them you would think Lothian were a bunch of uneducated Ametures , anyhoo I’m off

 

[In Focus]

Totally agree but when people are spouting uneducated nonsense as fact it gets a bit much to stomach some of the comments are ridiculous, to read them you would think Lothian were a bunch of uneducated Ametures , anyhoo I’m off

They are certainly not that and have a very shrewd marketing machine in place however aggressively trying to force other companies out of areas is always going to ruffle a few feathers and as you say you have worked at first you will probably understand how a lot of their guys feel ? And as for uneducated nonsense you should read Facebook and youd be gobsmacked lol

 

[overthewater]

The simple fact is clear Lothian prices for daily, weekly and monthly are higher and worse than First, its simple fact. And the fact some people believe sunshine out of LCB back side when it offers an inferior product for customers is a joke...

 

[tbtc]

The simple fact is clear Lothian prices for daily, weekly and monthly are higher and worse than First, its simple fact

I don't think anyone is saying otherwise.

Lothian have decided (rightly or wrongly) that they could/should charge higher fares - maybe because they think they can charge a premium for their product, maybe because they want to go in high so they can always lower prices at a later date, maybe they who knows.

But if they charge more then it's "Lothian are arrogantly overcharging so they can use West Lothian as a cash cow"... if they charge less then it's "Lothian are using their profits in Edinburgh to subsidise their uneconomic aggressively low fares in West Lothian".

To me, the fares from West Lothian into Edinburgh look fairly similar to equivalent journeys from *East* Lothian into Edinburgh.

At the moment, Livingston is a £3.70 single from Edinburgh, which is equivalent to Haddington to Edinburgh (both about fifteen miles from the city centre)...

...Bathgate is a £4.70 single from Edinburgh which is equivalent to North Berwick to Edinburgh (both about twenty miles from the city centre, given that the Lothian X27/X28 take quite a circuitous route).

Worth pointing out that Bathgate to Edinburgh is over an hour and a half for £4.70, which takes longer than a journey from Dunbar to Edinburgh on the X7 (which costs a quid more).

Given that they have an established £1.70/ £2.70/ £3.70 (etc) fare structure in the group, what's the realistic option? Bring Livingston down to £2.70 singles to Edinburgh (and Bathgate down to £3.70)?

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

At the moment, Livingston is a £3.70 single from Edinburgh, which is equivalent to Haddington to Edinburgh (both about fifteen miles from the city centre)...

...Bathgate is a £4.70 single from Edinburgh which is equivalent to North Berwick to Edinburgh (both about twenty miles from the city centre, given that the Lothian X27/X28 take quite a circuitous route).

Yet, the 44, is 22 miles in length and to go from Balerno to Wallyford, costs £1.70.

Best option is to get a day ticket which is priced around £5 which covers both LCB and LB and introduce the ridacard xtra where you pay a small bit extra to use all services within the Lothian family.

Just to add, Edinburgh to Bathgate costs £4.70 and takes 1hr 40 minutes (x28)
Scotrail Edinburgh to Bathgate costs £5.40 or if you buy a 10 pack of tickets, costs £4.78 and takes 26 minutes.

For the bus to be 8p cheaper than the train, is not going to help with the cause IMO.

 

[tbtc]

Yet, the 44, is 22 miles in length and to go from Balerno to Wallyford, costs £1.70.

Best option is to get a day ticket which is priced around £5 which covers both LCB and LB and introduce the ridacard xtra where you pay a small bit extra to use all services within the Lothian family.

Just to add, Edinburgh to Bathgate costs £4.70 and takes 1hr 40 minutes (x28)
Scotrail Edinburgh to Bathgate costs £5.40 or if you buy a 10 pack of tickets, costs £4.78 and takes 26 minutes.

For the bus to be 8p cheaper than the train, is not going to help with the cause IMO.

Yes, but the number of normal people wanting to travel from Balerno to Wallyford is so insignificant as to be a rounding error - whereas journeys from places into central Edinburgh do seem a relevant comparison.

And, as a comparison, to me the fares in West Lothian don't seem particularly out of kilter with broadly equivalent distances in East Lothian - despite the accusations that Lothian are charging too much to the west - if they can grow the business charging these fares to North Berwick (etc) then they don't seem unreasonable prices to charge from West Lothian (bearing in mind that the "group" seem to be settled on fares ending in a seventy pence).

If they charged £1.70 from Livingston to Edinburgh they'd be accused of undercutting First (and using their Edinburgh profits to subsidise this attack on a rival).

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Yet, the 44, is 22 miles in length and to go from Balerno to Wallyford, costs £1.70.

Best option is to get a day ticket which is priced around £5 which covers both LCB and LB and introduce the ridacard xtra where you pay a small bit extra to use all services within the Lothian family.

Just to add, Edinburgh to Bathgate costs £4.70 and takes 1hr 40 minutes (x28)
Scotrail Edinburgh to Bathgate costs £5.40 or if you buy a 10 pack of tickets, costs £4.78 and takes 26 minutes.

For the bus to be 8p cheaper than the train, is not going to help with the cause IMO.

To be fair I think the 44 gets away with it since it covers most of the Edinburgh suburbs and the route probably pays for itself, I see your point though and you could argue the same for the 33.

I 100% agree with the ridacard, and though I’ve mentioned it loads of the times on here. I’m baffled LCB didn’t introduce it instead of promoting the m-ticket app, though the 5 day bundle isn’t bad it would be better to have travel option through a piece of plastic instead of a piece of technology, heck even contactless whenever that happens..

Though I guess they anticipated the ridacard mishmash hench the £2 discount on single tickets for the normal ridacard which for me at least is great so I can travel to Livi and back for 1.70.

I think in order to compete with the train Lothian need to bring out the faster bus route from Bathgate to Edinburgh omitting Livingston in the process. it might not be as fast as the train but would be faster than the X27/X28 anyway (from Bathgate anyway)

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

To be fair I think the 44 gets away with it since it covers most of the Edinburgh suburbs and the route probably pays for itself, I see your point though and you could argue the same for the 33.

And the 26. I understand most people won't go the whole route, however LB can't use the excuse of the journey length for the prices.

Though I guess they anticipated the ridacard mishmash hench the £2 discount on single tickets for the normal ridacard which for me at least is great so I can travel to Livi and back for 1.70.

This is something I have not seen advertised, and should be. It might help with pax numbers. However, there still should be the option to have an add-on to the current ridacard (no need for a new or different ridacard) to travel on LCB, ECB, LB or any 2 or 3 of those combinations. They have a top up version of the ridacard so why not a LB only, LB and ECB, LB and LCB and LB, ECB, LCB options. If the prices were set at a decent rate, for some, they might buy an annual pass...

I think in order to compete with the train Lothian need to bring out the faster bus route from Bathgate to Edinburgh omitting Livingston in the process. it might not be as fast as the train but would be faster than the X27/X28 anyway (from Bathgate anyway)

Personally, I think to compete with the train, in terms of speed, they won't win even if they had a direct route in to the city. Where they can compete is price. Yes, sorting the route would be good but they are copying the route first take I think, however they can win on prices.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I see your point, though surprisingly Balerno (from the LCB fare zone map) seems to fall under the CityWest Zone, i wonder if that’s something they’ll implement if they follow the old Juniper Green - St Johns route?

Even though they seem to post alot on social media which is good to keep folk aware and intrigued, the ridacard deal not being advertised publicly is a big set back in my opinion and something Lothian should of advertised, the only way I found out was via twitter and that was when someone tweeted them! if more people were aware it could perhaps bump the customer numbers up.

That’s true, same can be said for both North Berwick, Dunbar and Wallyford they all have stations that can take them half the time to get to the city, though it’s nice to have alternatives I soppose

 

[In Focus]

I see your point, though surprisingly Balerno (from the LCB fare zone map) seems to fall under the CityWest Zone, i wonder if that’s something they’ll implement if they follow the old Juniper Green - St Johns route?

Even though they seem to post alot on social media which is good to keep folk aware and intrigued, the ridacard deal not being advertised publicly is a big set back in my opinion and something Lothian should of advertised, the only way I found out was via twitter and that was when someone tweeted them! if more people were aware it could perhaps bump the customer numbers up.

That’s true, same can be said for both North Berwick, Dunbar and Wallyford they all have stations that can take them half the time to get to the city, though it’s nice to have alternatives I soppose

It can never be commercially good in long run to have customers paying only £1.70 to go from Edinburgh to Livingston that's a sure fire route to going out of business quickly ! As for Ridacards , again not taking money and relying on prepayment is a risky tactic as there is just not the numbers in West Lothian who need to travel within the city , it all sounds good and from a passengers perspective the cheaper the better but as Lothian found out to their cost in 1994 it's commercial suicide in West Lothian.
The way some of their single pricing works at present they need almost 2 passengers to every 1 First lift and I don't see any evidence thats happening just now.

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

It can never be commercially good in long run to have customers paying only £1.70 to go from Edinburgh to Livingston that's a sure fire route to going out of business quickly ! As for Ridacards , again not taking money and relying on prepayment is a risky tactic as there is just not the numbers in West Lothian who need to travel within the city , it all sounds good and from a passengers perspective the cheaper the better but as Lothian found out to their cost in 1994 it's commercial suicide in West Lothian.
The way some of their single pricing works at present they need almost 2 passengers to every 1 First lift and I don't see any evidence thats happening just now.

No, and I am not for one second suggesting they charge £1.70 to go from Bathgate to Edinburgh but what I am saying is if they want to get more passangers on their buses, they need to look at why they are running with few passangers on them, and one reason is that it is just 8p cheaper than the train. If it cost £3.40 for example, then that is like paying £1.70 to the LB boundary and then £1.70 from there to the city and would be a good bit cheaper than the train, and therefore giving better value for your money.

It's also very complicated. Citywest, countrywest a and b etc.. It reminds me of the fare stages they had back in the 90s which they got rid of in 2005 I think for the flat fee. Where is the precice bounday too for the zone changes?

The flaws which were there from day 1
No contactless payment - The new Wayfarer 6 machines are being rolled out, so why did they not install them on the LCB fleet first? Even before Skylink. Install them now, and get them the same as the 100 service.
NO advertising of ridacard discount - Most people don't know this is even an option so they are losing out on potential income.
No ridacard xtra addon options - This would be at no extra cost, given the system is already in place for LB services. All it would need is a bit of code to be added to the bus terminals and server.
Half baked routes and timings - Some services are empty, and timing for example X27 every hour and X28 every hour is poor. If they wanted to run those properly, they should have copied first and said every 15 minutes (X28 twice hourly X27 twice hourly) or every 20 minutes and put on a better service that way.
Charging higher than their rival - Reputation can only go so far but as I said earlier about ticket prices, when you charge more than your competitor, it is not good. People want to save money.
Confusing price structure - As I said above, with a complex charging system vs Lothians, (Zone 1, 2, 3, 4 would have been ok) and without knowing for sure where the boundary lines are, it's a bit of a mess.

There is probably more that I can't think off right now.

I know the end game for Lothian is to make profit, but without passangers you will have no profit to make so to get those passangers, they need to focus on the car and train users (ignore first just now), tempt them to the Lothian family with good deals and offers, make it financially viable for them, and if they spend money on an annual pass, then they are locked in and Lothian have them captured so to speak. I think as was mentioned on the other LB thread, once the city council bring in the work place parking levy charges, it might push more people on to the buses more so, so this is the time for them to strike while the iron is hot. Otherwise LB might miss the boat.

 

[overthewater]

Just to make clear: THe bog standard fare I dont really care for, one way or another. it's the unlimited travel tickets that erk me. Also the West Lothian public have mouthed of for YEARS there believed their were getting ripped off by first..

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

surprisingly Balerno (from the LCB fare zone map) seems to fall under the CityWest Zone, i wonder if that’s something they’ll implement if they follow the old Juniper Green - St Johns route?

It does, however it is "outside" of the arc. But yes... Same with Ratho and the 20 bus. Those 2 services however, they'd be fools if they suddenly increased those prices to go to Balerno and Ratho.

 

[overthewater]

It seems LCB are sending its team to the Tesco Distribution Centre in Livingston tomorrow (Tuesday 16th) I think there are after the people who only work 4 days aweek and maybe travel on the 5th day Ie people who might use the 20 day bundles. Why no tjust have a proper weekly or monthly ticket on the Mobile..

 

[In Focus]

It seems LCB are sending its team to the Tesco Distribution Centre in Livingston tomorrow (Tuesday 16th) I think there are after the people who only work 4 days aweek and maybe travel on the 5th day Ie people who might use the 20 day bundles. Why no tjust have a proper weekly or monthly ticket on the Mobile..

Another desperate measure, First tried getting many "big companies " around the may industrial estates to enter into working partnership with staff discounts ,large majority didn't even respond to the invitation !!

 

[TheManWho]

Another desperate measure, First tried getting many "big companies " around the may industrial estates to enter into working partnership with staff discounts ,large majority didn't even respond to the invitation !!

Is it a "desperate measure" or is it a company looking to exploit new markets?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Is it a "desperate measure" or is it a company looking to exploit new markets?

It's desperate in the sense that Lothian are trying ever so hard to fill their consistently empty X27/X28s.

 

[In Focus]

Is it a "desperate measure" or is it a company looking to exploit new markets?

I will stick to my "desperate measures" as it is not a "new market " it is a factory which lies on a bus route with a car park full of cars and those who use the bus already won't be "new " business and I wouldn't expect those car owners to suddenly turn into bus users!

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I will stick to my "desperate measures" as it is not a "new market " it is a factory which lies on a bus route with a car park full of cars and those who use the bus already won't be "new " business and I wouldn't expect those car owners to suddenly turn into bus users!

I will back that up, Id love to hear what lothian would be told by many who have cars.

 

[oldman]

Of course most people in West Lothian using cars to get to their work aren't going to change, and Lothian know that fine well. And they know that people saying 'I would use public transport if only ...' often mean if only it was like a free taxi.

That doesn't mean that a convenient, well-priced bus service will not attract some passengers. Otherwise there would be no bus service at all. Some households will decide one car is enough if the bus service is reasonable for some of their journeys. Some young people will put off buying their first car. Some non-owners will apply for a job somewhere if they can actually get there.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Of course most people in West Lothian using cars to get to their work aren't going to change, and Lothian know that fine well. And they know that people saying 'I would use public transport if only ...' often mean if only it was like a free taxi.

That doesn't mean that a convenient, well-priced bus service will not attract some passengers. Otherwise there would be no bus service at all. Some households will decide one car is enough if the bus service is reasonable for some of their journeys. Some young people will put off buying their first car. Some non-owners will apply for a job somewhere if they can actually get there.

A reasonable assumption, but “some” when its concerning public transport sounds like a very small amount indeed, lothian should have had there efforts focused on there successful ECB and LMC subs and the rollout of the contactless ess payment facility on there buses much quicker than the rate they are doing this at.

Of course I still think that most will not do away with there cars even with cheap bus faires, or free ones.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Not my photo but here’s what one of the many single deckers will look like with LCB

 

[christopherrfc]

Phase 3

https://lothiancountry.co.uk/announcing-phase-3-of-our-west-lothian-expansion/

 

[Jordan Adam]

They might need to draft some Enviro500s in for the X27/X28...

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Phase 3

https://lothiancountry.co.uk/announcing-phase-3-of-our-west-lothian-expansion/

The X18 sounds like the X20 suggestion I posted earlier bar the Whitburn extension, but still very good they are linking Bathgate and Broxburn and providing a faster link to Bathgate with Edinburgh. someone’s listening it seems!

The N28 was very surprising to say the least, guess it’ll not be limited stop like the X28, surprised it’s running via Wilkieston I thought that was the X27 but I guess they wanted to save the N27 if Lothian wanted to bring back that old Night Service.

The fact LCB now have a night service could see the 43 having a N43 in the horizon, still so far so good with Phase 3.

Still, people might not be happy about Kirkliston getting stiffed again but this latest phase is handy at least. The X18 might work well with the 275 in terms of connecting others

 

[In Focus]

The X18 sounds like the X20 suggestion I posted earlier bar the Whitburn extension, but still very good they are linking Bathgate and Broxburn and providing a faster link to Bathgate with Edinburgh. someone’s listening it seems!

The N28 was very surprising to say the least, guess it’ll not be limited stop like the X28, surprised it’s running via Wilkieston I thought that was the X27 but I guess they wanted to save the N27 if Lothian wanted to bring back that old Night Service.

The fact LCB now have a night service could see the 43 having a N43 in the horizon, still so far so good with Phase 3.

The 29 service already links Bathgate to Broxburn and doesn't go Wester Inch so it seems once again LCB are aggressively attempting to place buses directly in from of competitors ,Bathgate to Edinburgh will not compete with train , Broxburn to Edinburgh will be a massive hit with people for sure!
Night services are a surprise just do not see a market out with festival and Christmas for this but it seems losses are being backed up by others so it won't really matter if they are empty .

 

[Volvodart]

I see Lothian's finance director has departed in mysterious circumstances

 

[overthewater]

Wester inch gets 4 buses an hour...

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

I'm slighty confused about the numbering of the buses. Lothian 1-99, Airlink and Skylink have the x00 East Coast seem to have 101-199 (apart from X5, X7, X24) and LCB have 201-299... so why do we have X18, X27, X28? Why not X218, X227, X228? By keeping their numbers within their own "family" I think it might have been neater.