Hebden Bridge-Bradford signalbox closures

[crosscity]

Hebden Bridge, Milner Royd Junction, Halifax and Bradford Mill Lane manual signalboxes close at the end of Friday this week (19Oct18). The line will be closed for three days to transfer signalling in the area to the York Rail Operations Centre. All four boxes will go out with more tings than in a typical hour in the 70’s. In their last hour Hebden Bridge will have six workings; Milner Royd five; Halifax four and Mill Lane nine.

I have a few questions:

1) How did the Victorian equipment interface with the more modern power/digital boxes (Hebden Bridge with Preston, Milner Royd Jct and Halifax with York ROC and Mill Lane with Leeds Power box)? What kind of equipment do the modern boxes have to communicate with the Victorian ones?

2) How will decommissioning take place and will the existing signallers have a role in it (or do they just signal the last train, close the box and go home).

3) Is it likely the manual boxes will be demolished over this week-end (I know Hebden Bridge won’t be as it is Grade II listed)?

I have an emotional attachment to Milner Royd Jct because when I was a teenager in the early seventies I got to know the signalman there, and spent many a happy hour hearing stories, watching the trains and occasionally pulling levers and sending bell codes.

 

[RichmondCommu]

We are in Hebden Bridge today. Is the signal box near the station?

 

[ainsworth74]

(Hebden Bridge with Preston, Milner Royd Jct and Halifax with York ROC and Mill Lane with Leeds Power box)?

Worth noting that Leeds PSB hasn't been used since the early 2000s since control was transfered to York IECC. So currently those boxes interface with two other signalling centres that are about 50m apart but miles away from the interfaces themselves!

 

[a_c_skinner]

IIRC Hebden Bridge is just off the platforms.

 

[LowLevel]

Hebden Bridge, Milner Royd Junction, Halifax and Bradford Mill Lane manual signalboxes close at the end of Friday this week (19Oct18). The line will be closed for three days to transfer signalling in the area to the York Rail Operations Centre. All four boxes will go out with more tings than in a typical hour in the 70’s. In their last hour Hebden Bridge will have six workings; Milner Royd five; Halifax four and Mill Lane nine.

I have a few questions:

1) How did the Victorian equipment interface with the more modern power/digital boxes (Hebden Bridge with Preston, Milner Royd Jct and Halifax with York ROC and Mill Lane with Leeds Power box)? What kind of equipment do the modern boxes have to communicate with the Victorian ones?

2) How will decommissioning take place and will the existing signallers have a role in it (or do they just signal the last train, close the box and go home).

3) Is it likely the manual boxes will be demolished over this week-end (I know Hebden Bridge won’t be as it is Grade II listed)?

I have an emotional attachment to Milner Royd Jct because when I was a teenager in the early seventies I got to know the signalman there, and spent many a happy hour hearing stories, watching the trains and occasionally pulling levers and sending bell codes.

1 - generally track circuit block via relay interlocking or computer based interlocking using train describers to pass information between the boxes. Not much different to anywhere else. There are exceptions though - in some areas more modern signalboxes still work absolute block with bells (Or a beeper) and telegraph to more old fashioned boxes. Shirebrook Junction/Elmton and Creswell Jn working to the 1990s Worksop PSB is an example.

2 - they close the box, write it in the train register (even modern boxes have them for certain occurences) and move on to their next post/retirement/redundancy or whatever. The Signalling and Telecoms engineer will then sign the box out of use in the book afterwards to decommission it. A decommissioned box doesn't require a signaller. Depending on the circumstances staff might be on site to operate things like level crossing controls if required in the interim.

3 - can't answer that. Some get demolished immediately if they're in the way or a likely vandal target, others last longer. Depends on the scheme.

 

[Crossover]

We are in Hebden Bridge today. Is the signal box near the station?

IIRC Hebden Bridge is just off the platforms.

Yes, just off the Manchester bound platform in the Leeds direction

 

[noddingdonkey]

When you say manual boxes, it's all colour light signals in those areas now, and has been for many years. Manual box conjurs up images of a lever frame box, but I'm guessing something a bit more modern and electronic?

 

[LowLevel]

When you say manual boxes, it's all colour light signals in those areas now, and has been for many years. Manual box conjurs up images of a lever frame box, but I'm guessing something a bit more modern and electronic?

Some are lever frame and some are panels I believe.

It's perfectly possible to have boxes with lever frames controlling only colour light signals.

 

[Geeves]

Milner Royd Junction is levers and colour lights. I believe Halifax and Mill lane are NX panels.

 

[crosscity]

Milner Royd Junction is levers and colour lights. I believe Halifax and Mill lane are NX panels.

The last time I was in Milner Royd box was in 1974. Jimmy, the Milner Royd signalman (who, sadly, has passed away) introduced me to signallers at Halifax and Greetland. From memory Halifax had switches in the form of tiny levers and Milner Royd had a proper frame, with smaller levers for the colour-lights and full-size for points, locking and semaphores. This sounds the same as Geeves describes here.

In April this year I was stood close to Milner Royd box, but wasn't allowed in. I could hear the bells, and they sounded just like they did 45 years ago!

I'm trying to understand what is in place right now. 6E10 the 1110 Liverpool Biomass-Drax freight will be travelling down the Calder Valley in half-an-hour passing Hebden Bridge and Milner Royd and continuing via Greetland and Mirfield to Healey Mills. Hebden Bridge and Milner Royd will be tinging the train through (just like in the seventies and before), but what does the signaller at Milner Royd ting through to the York ROC so the train can continue along the Calder Valley? Or is there a screen at MRJ to pass the train on? If it's tings, what is in York ROC that receives them?

 

[Calderfornian]

According to RTT the last train for the existing boxes looks like the 23:33 Hebden to Leeds ECS, end of an era! I may pop down there.

 

[RichmondCommu]

There are a team of people at Hebden Bridge station giving out leaflets urging people to help save the signal box. Are Network Rail planning to keep the crossover and siding at Hebden Bridge?

 

[edwin_m]

I'm trying to understand what is in place right now. 6E10 the 1110 Liverpool Biomass-Drax freight will be travelling down the Calder Valley in half-an-hour passing Hebden Bridge and Milner Royd and continuing via Greetland and Mirfield to Healey Mills. Hebden Bridge and Milner Royd will be tinging the train through (just like in the seventies and before), but what does the signaller at Milner Royd ting through to the York ROC so the train can continue along the Calder Valley? Or is there a screen at MRJ to pass the train on? If it's tings, what is in York ROC that receives them?

To expand a little on someone's post above, track circuit block is normally used between a modern signalling centre or ROC and a manual box at the edge of its area (known as a fringe box). TCB doesn't require trains to be offered and accepted by bells or any other means. If the line is clear the trains simply move through the area, although there is a means of stopping them in emergency. It's a bit more complicated if the fringe is on a single line, as although the interlocking will prevent trains being sent in at both ends there has to be some kind of offer and acceptance process for operational convenience.

The fringe box will normally have a computer terminal where the signaller enters the headcode of each train heading towards the signalling centre. It then appears on the panel or VDU and is moved along by the train describer in the normal way. Similarly the headcode of a train going from the signalling centre area to the fringe box will appear on the terminal. Where signalling centres with train describers fringe with each other the headcode is transferred automatically.

 

[Calderfornian]

There are a team of people at Hebden Bridge station giving out leaflets urging people to help save the signal box. Are Network Rail planning to keep the crossover and siding at Hebden Bridge?

Yes, signal box is Grade II listed and is going to be protected. Crossover has been resignalled and the siding stays too. What happens to the SB in the long term is anyone’s guess, the stairs are being removed and grills put over the windows. There was a planning application earlier in the year on the box sadly not that many people submitted anything.

 

[crosscity]

According to RTT the last train for the existing boxes looks like the 23:33 Hebden to Leeds ECS, end of an era! I may pop down there.

That's correct for Hebden Bridge and Milner Royd Jct. The last train signalled through Bradford Mill Lane and Halifax is the 2217 York to Huddersfield at 2334 and 2347 respectively. The ECS from Hebden Bridge gets to Leeds via Dewsbury.

 

[Calderfornian]

Here's the signal box leaflet for anyone interested - they are trying to take over the box for community use.

View media item 3231
http://www.hbstationfriends.org.uk
http://caldervalleyclt.org.uk

 

[Calderfornian]

And more here... background and download....

http://www.hebdenbridge.co.uk/news/2018/196.html

 

[Ianigsy]

The signal box at Hebden Bridge adds considerably to the L&Y atmosphere of the station, even if just made secure and subject to basic maintenance.

 

[crosscity]

1 - generally track circuit block via relay interlocking or computer based interlocking using train describers to pass information between the boxes. Not much different to anywhere else.

To expand a little on someone's post above, track circuit block is normally used between a modern signalling centre or ROC and a manual box at the edge of its area (known as a fringe box). TCB doesn't require trains to be offered and accepted by bells or any other means. If the line is clear the trains simply move through the area, although there is a means of stopping them in emergency. It's a bit more complicated if the fringe is on a single line, as although the interlocking will prevent trains being sent in at both ends there has to be some kind of offer and acceptance process for operational convenience.

The fringe box will normally have a computer terminal where the signaller enters the headcode of each train heading towards the signalling centre. It then appears on the panel or VDU and is moved along by the train describer in the normal way. Similarly the headcode of a train going from the signalling centre area to the fringe box will appear on the terminal. Where signalling centres with train describers fringe with each other the headcode is transferred automatically.

Your two posts answer most of my questions, so thank you both.

Milner Royd Jct is at one of the corners of a triangle of railways, the other two being Greetland Jct and Dryclough Jct. As there was never a box at Dryclough then Halifax must control this junction. Greetland Junction box was closed some time ago, so I assume this Junction has been controlled by York ROC since January when Huddersfield and Healey Mills boxes were closed.

So.... Hebden Bridge would have offered 6E10 to Milner Royd with tings. Milner Royd would accept it with tings to Hebden Bridge and would also set the route and signals and input 6E10 on the York ROC terminal. Hebden Bridge would then ting through to say the train had passed and was on its way. After the train had passed Milner Royd but before it got to Greetland it would have been automatically detected by York ROC.

A train for Halifax would be tinged all the way, just like they were in the seventies and indeed the 1900's, using original equipment. That really is fantastic. This truly is the end of an era.

 

[Eric Wickens]

Your two posts answer most of my questions, so thank you both.

Milner Royd Jct is at one of the corners of a triangle of railways, the other two being Greetland Jct and Dryclough Jct. As there was never a box at Dryclough then Halifax must control this junction. Greetland Junction box was closed some time ago, so I assume this Junction has been controlled by York ROC since January when Huddersfield and Healey Mills boxes were closed.

So.... Hebden Bridge would have offered 6E10 to Milner Royd with tings. Milner Royd would accept it with tings to Hebden Bridge and would also set the route and signals and input 6E10 on the York ROC terminal. Hebden Bridge would then ting through to say the train had passed and was on its way. After the train had passed Milner Royd but before it got to Greetland it would have been automatically detected by York ROC.

A train for Halifax would be tinged all the way, just like they were in the seventies and indeed the 1900's, using original equipment. That really is fantastic. This truly is the end of an era.

Of coarse their was a Signal Box at Dryclough Jct it closed in the 1970s I often went there with a freind of mine who was a Relief Signalman.

 

[takno]

http://photos.signalling.org/index?/category/318-calder_valley_line has some reasonably recent pictures of the boxes, inside and out. Should answer any questions about what equipment is there

 

[edwin_m]

It was mentioned above that several of the "traditional" boxes have had their lever frames replaced with small panels (and there are also boxes elsewhere with both). This is usually done because the area the box controls is expanded to take over that of one or more neighbouring boxes without becoming big enough to be considered as a proper signalling centre. This is most likely what happened to Dryclough Junction. When this happens the operating method within the enlarged control area is effectively Track Circuit Block - there's no point in the signalman belling trains to himself and he can't confirm trains complete by observing tail lamps anywhere other than from the box so the rest of the area has to be track circuited.

Similar to this but simpler is the introduction of Intermediate Block signals, where an extra stop signal plus repeater is inserted to divide a long block section. Again track circuits have to be used to prove the section clear if the end of it isn't at the box, but IB signals may be controlled off a spare lever rather than providing a panel. Some IB signals were installed on this part of the Calder Valley maybe five years ago - I don't know if they are staying or being replaced in this scheme.

 

[John Webb]

http://photos.signalling.org/index?/category/318-calder_valley_line has some reasonably recent pictures of the boxes, inside and out. Should answer any questions about what equipment is there

Thanks for that link.
It looks as though Hebden Bridge box once had a siding in front of it, so that it stands back from the line still in use. So hopefully, as happened at St Albans South, a fence can be put up far enough away from the box to allow access for visitors and for maintenance while keeping people away from the railway line.
What's the line speed through Hebden Bridge, out of curiosity?

 

[4630]

What's the line speed through Hebden Bridge, out of curiosity?

According to the Sectional Appendix both lines through Hebden Bridge (Up L&Y in the direction of Hall Royd Junction/Todmorden and Down L&Y in the direction of Sowerby Bridge) have a line speed of 60MPH for DMUs.

Any other traffic in the Up direction has a line speed of 55MPH, unless, of course a more restrictive lower limit applies to whatever is providing the traction.

The crossover has a limit of 15MPH.

The only non-stopping passenger trains in 'normal' service at HB and will therefore be running at 60MPH are TransPennine Express when their services are diverted along the Calder Valley, generally due to engineering work along the Standedge line through Huddersfield.

The station staff at HB are well used to having people on the platform taking photos and I recall in the distant past, when mobile coverage in the area wasn't great, the 'bobby' in the 'box opening the window and letting me know that the train that I wanted to photograph had just passed Milner Royd.

 

[crosscity]

Of coarse their was a Signal Box at Dryclough Jct it closed in the 1970s I often went there with a freind of mine who was a Relief Signalman.

Of course, there would have had to be a box at the junction it's just that I never noticed it when passing on trains. I went to Dryclough Jct a few times from 1972, but by then the box had been demolished. I suspect it, Halifax West (which I do remember) and Holdsworth Bridge (which I'd never heard of until today) were closed at the same time and the existing Halifax station box (then called ''East') had its frame removed ready for its new electronic role.

 

[geoffk]

Worth noting that Leeds PSB hasn't been used since the early 2000s since control was transfered to York IECC. So currently those boxes interface with two other signalling centres that are about 50m apart but miles away from the interfaces themselves!

What about the crossing box at Batley - is that staying open?

 

[WestRiding]

What about the crossing box at Batley - is that staying open?

Yeah, its still a fully functioning signal box controlling the loop at dewsbury.

 

[Tomnick]

Your two posts answer most of my questions, so thank you both.

Milner Royd Jct is at one of the corners of a triangle of railways, the other two being Greetland Jct and Dryclough Jct. As there was never a box at Dryclough then Halifax must control this junction. Greetland Junction box was closed some time ago, so I assume this Junction has been controlled by York ROC since January when Huddersfield and Healey Mills boxes were closed.

So.... Hebden Bridge would have offered 6E10 to Milner Royd with tings. Milner Royd would accept it with tings to Hebden Bridge and would also set the route and signals and input 6E10 on the York ROC terminal. Hebden Bridge would then ting through to say the train had passed and was on its way. After the train had passed Milner Royd but before it got to Greetland it would have been automatically detected by York ROC.

A train for Halifax would be tinged all the way, just like they were in the seventies and indeed the 1900's, using original equipment. That really is fantastic. This truly is the end of an era.

You’re not far off, as the others have said. Hebden Bridge offers the train to Milner Royd (a single beat for call attention, then 5 consecutive beats for ‘is line clear’ for a class 6 freight) whichever way it’s going. The former’s section signal (or intermediate block home, as I believe is the case here) is electrically locked until the latter accepts it and gives a ‘line clear’ (which will work for ‘one pull’ only). Two beats for ‘train entering section’ when it’s on its way, then Milner Royd sends ‘train out of section’ (2-1 preceded by call attention) once the train’s arrived complete with tail lamp - that’s important because it’s the only way of proving that’s the section’s clear again.

It’s a lot easier towards York ROC. Milner Royd will have track circuit indications extending to the end of the overlap of York’s first signal. If all those track circuits are clear, then the interlocking will allow him to clear the signal. He’ll interpose the train description into (usually) an “approaching” train description berth from which it’ll automatically step forward into the berth associated with York’s first signal as soon as the train passes Milner Royd’s last.

I’m fairly sure that Milner Royd works TCB to Halifax too, but in that case almost certainly with the descriptions passed by bell signal rather than train describer.

Halifax works, or at least it certainly used to, AB to Mill Lane despite the latter’s first/last signals being quite close to Halifax and both lines, I’m fairly sure, track circuited throughout. That’d allow Mill Lane to ‘clear back’ as soon as the train had passed clear of the “clearing point” (equivalent of the overlap). I suspect that that arrangement survived only to give Halifax the opportunity to refuse trains from Mill Lane, with a crossover within the clearing point.

 

[Ploughman]

Yeah, its still a fully functioning signal box controlling the loop at dewsbury.

Is it still called Lady Annes'

 

[4630]

The nameplate on the 'box and in the Sectional Appendix is 'Batley'.

I've seen it referred to as Lady Anne Crossing in local media, and 'Lady Anne Road' is close by, but the road used by the level crossing is actually Howley Street.