Should the Wales and Borders franchise be branded differently e.g. 'Wales & Borders'?

[Honest Ross]

Still doesn’t justify your crazy theory that a welsh station using Welsh language is discriminatory.

 

[northwichcat]

The received wisdom is that in this sort of situation (where all speakers of the minority language are also speakers of the majority language) it that you want to give priority to the minority language, because people tend to read the first language they can interpret before they can make a conscious decision. If you put the majority language first, then minority speakers will read most (or all) of the majority language before finding the minority language, and effectively read everything twice. If you put things the other way around, and put the minority language first, minority speakers will read it (and can stop there) whereas those than don't speak the language will subconsciously scan ahead looking for the language they can interpret.

I was recently asked to find translation fails for a social media feed. Welsh translation fails seem to be the most common ones - one being a sign told correctly English speakers 'left' and incorrectly told Welsh speakers 'right', so TfW need to be 100% sure their text is error free if they want to encourage bilingual speakers to read the Welsh version, otherwise they'll just laugh at their incompetence.

 

[pt_mad]

Does that recognise and demonstrate the cross-border nature of the franchise as mandated in the agreement between the Secretary of State for Transport and the Welsh Government? That's the interesting (though not terribly important) point for me.

No, but did 'Arriva Trains Wales'?

 

[Oscar46016]

All I want is an extra coach on my 1533xx in the morning.

I don’t care what it’s called or looks like.

 

[Dai Corner]

No, but did 'Arriva Trains Wales'?

Arriva weren't required to when choosing their name. The Welsh Government are.

 

[PR1Berske]

What is it with this forum and the Welsh language? It seems to really flame some serious fires!

 

[Severn40]

I was not planning to comment but I am rather disappointed about the negative tone which doesn't help anyone.

From a Welsh perspective, the new franchise cannot come quick enough and there is a genuine desire for real improvement. Having arguably been fobbed off with one of the worst franchise agreements from the early 2000s and general DfT intransigence over this period, it is not surprising that the Welsh Government (despite its many faults) wanting to pursue a more radical change.

In a way, it would be cleaner from a governance issue if more of the English services fell under a largely English based franchise. DfT could have been more grown up about how this was handled, but decided to play a bit of politics on the matter at the time. So we have some anomalies such as the Shropshire and Cheshire services sitting under a largely Welsh franchise and the core Cardiff to Bristol service, serving a largely Welsh market, in an English franchise.

Hopefully over time some of the sensitivities are ironed out but please can we moderate some of the tone?

 

[Llanigraham]

I note that the Welsh is written first and bolder than the English on the new branding. May I suggest that this is reversed being as English is the most widely spoken language on Earth?

I understood that the most commonly spoken languages were actually Mandarin, Spanish and then English.

And having spoken to friends that live in Ludlow, Shrewsbury and Hereford and they don't actually give a fig what the trains are called as long as they have trains. Strikes me that it is only the "usual suspects" on here who always seem to complain about anything to do with the use of the Welsh language on the railway.

 

[Llanigraham]

I think comparisons between counties or other franchises are red herrings.

Firstly, through Scotrail services which continue beyond Carlisle (the first major station in England) are joint services with Northern. 'Transport for Wales' services can run for over 100 miles running before they reach the Welsh border, while some services never enter Wales at all. For it to be like Scotrail, Northern/LNR would need to take over Manchester/Birmingham bound services at Chester/Shrewsbury/Hereford and those interchange stations would be in Northern/LNR branding. I also don't think Scotrail plaster the Gaelic language all over English stations they serve - not that having bilingual signs at interchange stations used by a lot of Welsh people is a bad thing but isn't really appropriate for little rural stations in Cheshire, Shropshire and on the Wirral. (Note having irrelevant information on signage makes it more difficult to read for those with learning disabilities.)

While there have been wars between counties within England in the past they are all now part of the same country, Scotland and Wales are both separate countries to England even if we are all part of the UK. Although, imagine if when MTL won the Northern Spirit franchise they had not only put 'Merseyside Transport Limited' branding all over the North East and Yorkshire stations instead of Northern Spirit and local PTE branding but used Scouse dialect on station notices.

I can't think of one that fits that description. Can you please enlighten us?

What is strange is the use of a special .Wales website domain. We have .uk domains and Wales, like England, is part of the UK so what's wrong with a .uk one?

Irrelevant!
.Wales and .Cymru have been available for some time.

 

[Llanigraham]

Yet the 'country's own language' is less widely spoken than English, even in Wales. I recently saw an American program about Wales and when the presenter was talking to quite a few Welsh speakers they were all of the opinion the Welsh language is dying out, which they said was a shame but also didn't think it was sensible to force the Welsh language on people.

Opinion that is disproved by both common useage and statistics.
15 years ago I never heard Welsh spoken in this town, now I hear it every day, and often NOT from the younger generation.

 

[Philip]

Perhaps 'North and West' would have been appropriate and a nice reference to history, given that a large proportion of their service time is spent on this route?

 

[route:oxford]

Principality & Beyond is probably a better name.

 

[Esker-pades]

Principality & Beyond is probably a better name.

Sounds like the rejected catchphrase for Buzz Lightyear.

Couldn't they just name the TOC "Wales and Borders" like the franchise? That name seems a pretty good description of the services operated, and would remove the "oh, but they operate a Chester to Crewe shuttle which isn't in Wales" complaints.

 

[Dai Corner]

Principality & Beyond is probably a better name.

You obviously didn't hear about the outcry from nationalists and republicans about the naming of the Prince of Wales Bridge?

 

[pt_mad]

Nice to know Shrewsbury station is providing Transport for Wales.

 

[krus_aragon]

I was recently asked to find translation fails for a social media feed. Welsh translation fails seem to be the most common ones - one being a sign told correctly English speakers 'left' and incorrectly told Welsh speakers 'right', so TfW need to be 100% sure their text is error free if they want to encourage bilingual speakers to read the Welsh version, otherwise they'll just laugh at their incompetence.

As TfW is effectifely an arm of the Welsh Government (who have a very good track record on such things) and TfW Rail is effectively a service contract let by them, I have every confidence that they will.

 

[Dr Day]

Problem is someone appears to have domain-squatted transportfor.wales.

My understanding from the other side of the Severn is that the body managing the franchise (ie the civil servants) has transportfor.wales, with the train operating company tfwrail.wales.
It may get quite confusing between the two organisations, one managing the contract and the other the public facing train operator, both essentially having the same name.

 

[Ianigsy]

I wonder how quickly some wag will see a "Transport for Wales" brand on a unit and say "You'd never fit one on there!". Equally, "Transport Wales" does rather invite the response "yes, but where to?".

 

[pt_mad]

Transport for Wales. It's a gift to Wales.

 

[Honest Ross]

Principality & Beyond is probably a better name.

Why? Wales isn’t a Principality.

 

[pt_mad]

Could call it "Transport for Wales, and for England on the Crewe, Welsh Marches, Manchester, Birmingham and Bidston routes". Has a ring to it.

 

[HowardGWR]

"Offa's Dyke and Beyond" perhaps?

 

[pt_mad]

"Offa's Dyke and Beyond" perhaps?

Very accurate.

Or what about
'Offa's Dyke to Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch'?

No spelling mistakes please.

 

[Darandio]

I don't think anyone has taken any issue about it having the word Wales in it.

It's probably more that it says for Wales.

Anyone getting worked up because it says for Wales is being silly, but that is just my opinion. This forum can really be the gift that keeps on giving at times.

'Transport for Wales and other parts'

 

[Elecman]

Indeed. Many people in Merseyside, Cheshire, Shropshire and North Wales get their electricity from Scottish Power after they acquired MANWEB. Scottish Power sounds strange but a Scottish business acquired the local electricity company. If they called themselves "Electricity for Scotland" that would sound ridiculous!

And Scottish Power is owned by Spanish firm Iberdola

 

[pt_mad]

Anyone getting worked up because it says for Wales is being silly, but that is just my opinion. This forum can really be the gift that keeps on giving at times.

'Transport for Wales and other parts'

Try renaming Lockerbie and Dunbar stations 'Transport for England' and see what Nicola Sturgeon says?

Or would any objections be silly?

 

[Darandio]

Try renaming Lockerbie and Dunbar stations 'Transport for England' and see what Nicola Sturgeon says?

Just like I said, silly.

 

[43096]

Two issues that I can see with it:
- use of Welsh language first, particularly for announcements. With the vast majority of people being English speakers, that is nonsensical. Just political correctness gone mad.
- use of Transport for Wales branding on stations and services not in Wales. If you don't think it is relevant, can you imagine the riot if "Transport for England" branding was applied at Newport (for example)? This is no different. It should be "Wales & Borders" or similar.

 

[pt_mad]

It seems patriotism may be more acceptable from Wales and Scotland than it is England but that's a matter of people's individual opinion?

Wales are obviously very proud of their brand and rightly so, but I do feel that using 'for England' in the same context would be received diffently altogether by the wider public. I just doubt it'd be passed.

Like we could see British Rail again, but I sincerely doubt we'd ever see 'Transport for Britain', even if the whole railway were nationalised by labour as one.

 

[Darandio]

It seems patriotism may be more acceptable from Wales and Scotland than it is England but that's a matter of people's individual opinion?

Everyone has an opinion. Are people getting in a lather about this elsewhere, or just on RailUK? How long was it known before the actual franchise change that the Transport for Wales brand would appear in England? Genuine question.