Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[DaveN]

That's a bit misleading as some of them have been reinserted in the same paths under STP.

That's true. It also doesn't include the Kings Cross and Moorgate trains that should be getting re-instated. I think these count for about a third of the still missing trains.

 

[ijmad]

Does anyone know when the full Thameslink timetable is due to return? ie one as least as good as before the chaos of the summer? Eg Kentish Town for years has had 4 trains an hour off peak arriving from and going to the north, but we’re still down to 3.

The December change appears to restore 6tph off peak to Kentish Town, and also delivers the promised 4tph all day to stations between Denmark Hill and Bickley.

However between 0800 and 0900, RTT currently shows you as only getting 4 trains, because the Kentish Town to Orpingtons are shown as extended to Luton during the peak as expected, but are currently listed as non-stopping KT, which seems a little odd, and possibly a mistake.

 

[bakerstreet]

The December change appears to restore 6tph off peak to Kentish Town, and also delivers the promised 4tph all day to stations between Denmark Hill and Bickley.

However between 0800 and 0900, RTT currently shows you as only getting 4 trains, because the Kentish Town to Orpingtons are shown as extended to Luton during the peak as expected, but are currently listed as non-stopping KT, which seems a little odd, and possibly a mistake.

Thank you that’s good to know. I didn’t realise that this information would already be in RTT.
The bit about some trains missing out Kentish Town reminds me of a problem often to be found at West Hampstead Thameslink northbound.
Previously a train during the off peak was either fast to St Albans or called at all stations.
Usually the fasts all departed from a different platform anyway.
Now, most trains stopping trains call at Cricklewood and Hendon but 2 an hour (out of 6) miss only those stations out and go fast to Mill Hill then all stations.
Not sure why they do this. It causes more confusion as there is no easy way to immediately spot the difference in calling pattern from the main display board summary and if a train is in the platform the platform indicators can take too long to tell their story
Given than Mill Hill (zone 4) has a population size of 18261 and Hendon zone 3/4) has more at 18472 (2011 census) with cricklewood Zone 3) at 58035 (2001 census) it seems an odd decision to make the service so complex and to give areas of larger population closer to London less of a service.
I wonder if two very slightly faster trains from Mill Hill with a 3 mins shorter journey time to London St Pan really encourage much passenger growth from Mill Hill compared to the confusion and annoyance caused further down the line.

 

[Failed Unit]

The great northern part may also get the advertised service at weekends from the timetable change. They are all in the national rail site. (Hopefully not to be removed)

 

[jon0844]

The great northern part may also get the advertised service at weekends from the timetable change. They are all in the national rail site. (Hopefully not to be removed)

I didn't think the new services were approved yet, so I wouldn't trust them to be set in stone. Only this week I believe many diagrams have been rejected/sent back by drivers at one depot.

Time is rapidly running out.

 

[infobleep]

I didn't think the new services were approved yet, so I wouldn't trust them to be set in stone. Only this week I believe many diagrams have been rejected/sent back by drivers at one depot.

Time is rapidly running out.

Do you know what is wrong with the diagrams?

 

[Failed Unit]

I didn't think the new services were approved yet, so I wouldn't trust them to be set in stone. Only this week I believe many diagrams have been rejected/sent back by drivers at one depot.

Time is rapidly running out.

All because network rail approved the timetable late in May.

6 months on and it still sounds we are no further forward.

 

[jon0844]

Do you know what is wrong with the diagrams?

No, but I've been told it's quite normal for many plans to be rejected. The problem is that it can't be long until the timetables all need to be approved by drivers/union and submitted to Network Rail for approval. Otherwise we have the same problems all over again with everything done at 2359 the day before

Actually isn't it meant to be 12 weeks? We've already gone beyond that.

 

[infobleep]

No, but I've been told it's quite normal for many plans to be rejected. The problem is that it can't be long until the timetables all need to be approved by drivers/union and submitted to Network Rail for approval. Otherwise we have the same problems all over again with everything done at 2359 the day before

Actually isn't it meant to be 12 weeks? We've already gone beyond that.

I thought it was 6 weeks currently by technically it should be 12.

 

[bramling]

Thank you that’s good to know. I didn’t realise that this information would already be in RTT.
The bit about some trains missing out Kentish Town reminds me of a problem often to be found at West Hampstead Thameslink northbound.
Previously a train during the off peak was either fast to St Albans or called at all stations.
Usually the fasts all departed from a different platform anyway.
Now, most trains stopping trains call at Cricklewood and Hendon but 2 an hour (out of 6) miss only those stations out and go fast to Mill Hill then all stations.
Not sure why they do this. It causes more confusion as there is no easy way to immediately spot the difference in calling pattern from the main display board summary and if a train is in the platform the platform indicators can take too long to tell their story
Given than Mill Hill (zone 4) has a population size of 18261 and Hendon zone 3/4) has more at 18472 (2011 census) with cricklewood Zone 3) at 58035 (2001 census) it seems an odd decision to make the service so complex and to give areas of larger population closer to London less of a service.
I wonder if two very slightly faster trains from Mill Hill with a 3 mins shorter journey time to London St Pan really encourage much passenger growth from Mill Hill compared to the confusion and annoyance caused further down the line.

I’d guess at least some of this is down to having to make the timetable work, and thus a trade-off between providing what would exist in an ideal world versus what can actually be achieved - reliably and robustly.

At the end of the day the infrastructure is being expected to handle many more services than ideal, and with undesirable features like flat junctions on top of this. In places the amount of infrastructure work has been lacking too - on the GN side we couldn’t even get the Stevenage fifth platform in time!

 

[DaveN]

There have been "semi-slow" services in the peaks that skipped Kentish Town, Cricklewood and Hendon in the peaks for many years, giving slightly faster journey times for the other stations. It may only be a few minutes but that adds up over a year for a traditional 5 days a week commuter. At various times some of them have skipped West Hampstead, Mill Hill and even Elstree & Borehamwood.
For example in the evening those faster services would run immediately before the all stations. So they would hoover up the Elstree & Borehamwood hoards, giving the Cricklewood etc people a chance to get on (and even get a seat) on the all stations services.

When they were doing the high level planning for the new timetable, they tried to group the services into groups (typically running 2 tph) including some that would only run in the peaks. Some of those "semi-slow" services got paired with the Orpington services and the others got paired with the new Rainham services.
So when it was decided that the Rainhams would run all day, they decided that they could run north off peak too, hence the 2 extra services off peak (which partially compensates for the fact that the Wimbledon loop services are cut back to St Albans instead of some going to Luton).
So this was a deliberate decision rather than an oversight.

However... when the finer details of the timetable were being sorted out it turned out that they couldn't run the neat service groups anyway and they have ended up with the evening peak all stations running from Orpington and Rainham and the semi-slows from Sutton and Wimbledon. The semi-fasts are 10 minutes before the all stations instead of 4 minutes before as in the old days and take as long to get to Elstree etc as the all stations. In the morning they are still slightly quicker than the all stations.

Off peak, having the Rainham services skip Kentish Town, Cricklewood and Hendon means that they are slightly quicker and so gives a slightly longer turn around time at Luton at about 17 minutes.

 

[387star]

There have been "semi-slow" services in the peaks that skipped Kentish Town, Cricklewood and Hendon in the peaks for many years, giving slightly faster journey times for the other stations. It may only be a few minutes but that adds up over a year for a traditional 5 days a week commuter. At various times some of them have skipped West Hampstead, Mill Hill and even Elstree & Borehamwood.
For example in the evening those faster services would run immediately before the all stations. So they would hoover up the Elstree & Borehamwood hoards, giving the Cricklewood etc people a chance to get on (and even get a seat) on the all stations services.

When they were doing the high level planning for the new timetable, they tried to group the services into groups (typically running 2 tph) including some that would only run in the peaks. Some of those "semi-slow" services got paired with the Orpington services and the others got paired with the new Rainham services.
So when it was decided that the Rainhams would run all day, they decided that they could run north off peak too, hence the 2 extra services off peak (which partially compensates for the fact that the Wimbledon loop services are cut back to St Albans instead of some going to Luton).
So this was a deliberate decision rather than an oversight.

However... when the finer details of the timetable were being sorted out it turned out that they couldn't run the neat service groups anyway and they have ended up with the evening peak all stations running from Orpington and Rainham and the semi-slows from Sutton and Wimbledon. The semi-fasts are 10 minutes before the all stations instead of 4 minutes before as in the old days and take as long to get to Elstree etc as the all stations. In the morning they are still slightly quicker than the all stations.

Off peak, having the Rainham services skip Kentish Town, Cricklewood and Hendon means that they are slightly quicker and so gives a slightly longer turn around time at Luton at about 17 minutes.

That rainham service has a lot of stops!

 

[bramling]

I see the latest GTR thing is ANPR cameras in most of their car parks. My local paper full of people who have been fined picking up people off delayed services.

So while their service has imploded over the last few months, astounding to see GTR focussing corporate time on car park management.

Astounding!

 

[samuelmorris]

How do you think they're funding all those DR requests?

 

[bramling]

How do you think they're funding all those DR requests?

That was exactly what sprung to mind!

Whilst the whole FailedPlan is more the DFT’s mess up, this just confirms GTR really are the pits in every respect.

And a completely ridiculous time to do it, when the service is still highly erratic - I see the northbound service from the core was screwed again tonight...

 

[jon0844]

I see the latest GTR thing is ANPR cameras in most of their car parks. My local paper full of people who have been fined picking up people off delayed services.

So while their service has imploded over the last few months, astounding to see GTR focussing corporate time on car park management.

Astounding!

Wasn't that a contact requirement? ANPR allows for people to pay for parking online, or setup autopay. No more pay and display nonsense, and the ability to avoid a penalty if you're going to be longer than you thought by just adding more time on your app/online or when you return.

You get 20 minutes free and I expect in reality you likely get 30. There are clear signs at my local station.

I'm not sure how this is a bad thing? I wish all car parks got cameras and worked like this.

 

[jamesthegill]

Wasn't that a contact requirement? ANPR allows for people to pay for parking online, or setup autopay. No more pay and display nonsense, and the ability to avoid a penalty if you're going to be longer than you thought by just adding more time on your app/online or when you return.

You get 20 minutes free and I expect in reality you likely get 30. There are clear signs at my local station.

I'm not sure how this is a bad thing? I wish all car parks got cameras and worked like this.

Aren't the car parks run by a private company (Indigo?) anyway?

 

[Aictos]

Aren't the car parks run by a private company (Indigo?) anyway?

I think so remember GTR outsources a lot of work to outside companies such as car parks, security and train cleaners to name just a few.

Back under FCC, the cleaners at Kings Cross were inhouse but as soon as GTR came in they transferred them over to Churchill just to save money

That's just one example mind!

 

[bramling]

Wasn't that a contact requirement? ANPR allows for people to pay for parking online, or setup autopay. No more pay and display nonsense, and the ability to avoid a penalty if you're going to be longer than you thought by just adding more time on your app/online or when you return.

You get 20 minutes free and I expect in reality you likely get 30. There are clear signs at my local station.

I'm not sure how this is a bad thing? I wish all car parks got cameras and worked like this.

The issue seems to be that people are picking relatives up at the station, and finding themselves getting penalty notices if they wait longer than 20 minutes should the train be delayed - which of course is not exactly a rare occurrence on ShamblesLink/.

I don’t think that’s reasonable, especially at times like late evening.

Looking at the GTR website it says if waiting for someone users need to “keep an eye on the time and decide whether to pay or go somewhere else” - typical GTR arrogance.

At my station it seems to be causing issues as people are now parking all round the entrance in order to avoid the camera-controlled areas, making it a pain for those of us who arrive and leave on foot.

Private companies running station car parks are a PITA. LU continue to have all sorts of problems, right down to their own staff continuously getting penalty notices when legitimately accessing their own spaces after ANPR systems were introduced.

 

[jon0844]

The issue seems to be that people are picking relatives up at the station, and finding themselves getting penalty notices if they wait longer than 20 minutes should the train be delayed - which of course is not exactly a rare occurrence on ShamblesLink/.

I don’t think that’s reasonable, especially at times like late evening.

Looking at the GTR website it says if waiting for someone users need to “keep an eye on the time and decide whether to pay or go somewhere else” - typical GTR arrogance.

At my station it seems to be causing issues as people are now parking all round the entrance in order to avoid the camera-controlled areas, making it a pain for those of us who arrive and leave on foot.

Private companies running station car parks are a PITA. LU continue to have all sorts of problems, right down to their own staff continuously getting penalty notices when legitimately accessing their own spaces after ANPR systems were introduced.

I think there's something to be said for increasing the time limit to an hour. Not long enough for a commuter, but does benefit those picking up and delayed. I am pretty sure there's already a grace period, but I don't know what it is.

Aren't the car parks run by a private company (Indigo?) anyway?

Yes, but unlike other privately managed car parks they CAN clamp vehicles for non-payment of penalty charges.

 

[bramling]

I think there's something to be said for increasing the time limit to an hour. Not long enough for a commuter, but does benefit those picking up and delayed. I am pretty sure there's already a grace period, but I don't know what it is.

That would certainly help.

The other issue is someone got a notice for waiting in a premier bay at 2330 at night, although it’s not clear if this was down to the ANPR or a manual check (the latter seems a little unlikely at that time of day?).

According to the paper the local MP is involved again!

Meanwhile GN is up the wall again, this time due to a fatality at Sandy. The Peterborough route is certainly feeling the impact of their service having been transformed “for good”! Disruption only about three times more likely for a given journey thanks to the extra route miles...

 

[jellybaby]

I think there's something to be said for increasing the time limit to an hour. Not long enough for a commuter, but does benefit those picking up and delayed.

If you make it too long then people start using it to visit the local shops and there aren't any spaces left for railway passengers.

 

[Kanrakuq]

It was only last week that someone was hit by a train at Arlesey. A grim few weeks up here.

Re. parking, at Arlesey in the morning the pick-up bay, which only has three spaces anyway, is completely taken up with a snack van which is always parked there. Not very helpful really, but no doubt they're slipping GTR a few quid to be allowed to do it, plus it tempts people to park in the ANPR area instead so what's not to love?

If you make it too long then people start using it to visit the local shops and there aren't any spaces left for railway passengers.

I'm not really sure whether that's a concern in most areas up in the north. We're hardly talking major cities here — you want to go to the local shops in Arlesey, just park outside them, there aren't any restrictions anyway. It's purely a money-making thing.

edit: Although maybe we could do with a few restrictions here and there ...

 

[jon0844]

If some car parks are near shops then, yes, an hour could be too long. At Hatfield, my station, there's nothing of note nearby so I suppose the time could be judged on a case-by-case basis. Might be worth someone approaching GTR with a suggestion to look at adjusting the times?

There are presumably manual checks carried out when the car parks are cleaned. Indigo do both jobs (same person it seems from what I've observed) and I see no issue with someone getting a ticket for parking in a reserved spot. There should be plenty of spaces in the car park, and it seems the first ones to get filled with those 'just waiting' are the disabled spaces. Again, not on IMO.

 

[bramling]

If some car parks are near shops then, yes, an hour could be too long. At Hatfield, my station, there's nothing of note nearby so I suppose the time could be judged on a case-by-case basis. Might be worth someone approaching GTR with a suggestion to look at adjusting the times?

There are presumably manual checks carried out when the car parks are cleaned. Indigo do both jobs (same person it seems from what I've observed) and I see no issue with someone getting a ticket for parking in a reserved spot. There should be plenty of spaces in the car park, and it seems the first ones to get filled with those 'just waiting' are the disabled spaces. Again, not on IMO.

Hitchin does have a Tesco Metro just outside the frontage, however people using this tend to use the station drop-off area, or parking on double yellow lines in the approach road -- none of which is covered by the ANPR!

It is rail users who are getting hit, as they turn up and find the official drop-off area is full of people visiting Tesco, so they (logically and sensibly) wait in the first part of the station car park, which during the evening is normally almost empty.

Talk about creating a problem when none existed before. What they've now done is crowded out the whole frontage, making it more dangerous for those arriving on foot or bike.

 

[jon0844]

Hitchin does have a Tesco Metro just outside the frontage, however people using this tend to use the station drop-off area, or parking on double yellow lines in the approach road -- none of which is covered by the ANPR!

It is rail users who are getting hit, as they turn up and find the official drop-off area is full of people visiting Tesco, so they (logically and sensibly) wait in the first part of the station car park, which during the evening is normally almost empty.

Talk about creating a problem when none existed before. What they've now done is crowded out the whole frontage, making it more dangerous for those arriving on foot or bike.

Hatfield had a special area or short stays (free) but soon got taken up by taxis (the type not allowed to be hailed, but sit there and wait for someone to phone up or use an app then instantly arrive) so whatever is done, it will be abused.

I know people don't like to walk these days, but there are likely places a short distance away at many stations where people can wait without being penalised.

In the long run, car parks with ANPR are far far more convenient for those who actually want to park and leave their vehicle to use the train.

 

[bramling]

Hatfield had a special area or short stays (free) but soon got taken up by taxis (the type not allowed to be hailed, but sit there and wait for someone to phone up or use an app then instantly arrive) so whatever is done, it will be abused.

I know people don't like to walk these days, but there are likely places a short distance away at many stations where people can wait without being penalised.

Try that at Hitchin or Letchworth! (without causing an obstruction on a main road at least!).

In the long run, car parks with ANPR are far far more convenient for those who actually want to park and leave their vehicle to use the train.

I'd take issue with that. Many people just want to turn up, find a space, put what they have to in the machine, and catch their train - without having to faff about putting in registrations or messing around with apps. This especially applies to older people.

Furthermore, I'd suggest that at many stations the numbers of people being picked up probably outweighs the numbers of people actually leaving their car there for the day. Being cynical I realise that the latter group makes extra revenue for the railway whilst the former doesn't! Add in those arriving by bus, taxi, cycle or (in my case) foot who now find the whole forecourt is more crowded, polluted and dangerous, and I'd say the overall experience is a negative one for many.

 

[jon0844]

Having to have the right money (older machines didn't take cards) and then put a ticket on your dashboard was a horrible way to park. If you didn't have the right money (no change given) you had to go into the station and get a ticket, then walk back to your car.

Using a modern machine with a proper QWERTY keyboard, and the option of using an app, or the option of registering your car so you merely pay what's due AUTOMATICALLY has to be a benefit for everyone, no? I am not sure even older people have a problem with that.

I don't think stations were ever designed with the thought that half the train in peak times were going to be met by a car outside the station, with people desperate to get as close as possible without actually going onto the line! As I said, you'd have to consider everything on a case-by-case basis based on local roads, shops, the size of the car park etc.

 

[bramling]

Having to have the right money (older machines didn't take cards) and then put a ticket on your dashboard was a horrible way to park. If you didn't have the right money (no change given) you had to go into the station and get a ticket, then walk back to your car.

Using a modern machine with a proper QWERTY keyboard, and the option of using an app, or the option of registering your car so you merely pay what's due AUTOMATICALLY has to be a benefit for everyone, no? I am not sure even older people have a problem with that.

Personal taste I guess. Personally I'd be quite happy just paying in a machine, especially if it accepts a card payment. Having said that I seldom use station car parks so it doesn't really affect me in that respect, but qv my previous post.

I don't think stations were ever designed with the thought that half the train in peak times were going to be met by a car outside the station, with people desperate to get as close as possible without actually going onto the line! As I said, you'd have to consider everything on a case-by-case basis based on local roads, shops, the size of the car park etc.

We're not talking about people wanting to wait right by the entrance (the taxi rank gets that privilege!), and I'm not really talking about peak times. Places like Stevenage, Hitchin and Letchworth will have quite a few people waiting to pick people up through the evening, where it shouldn't be a tedious experience.

It's about people finding *somewhere* to wait within a reasonable distance, that's not (1) taken by people visiting Tesco, (2) taken by a snack van, and (3) where they're not going to get an automated fine if they go a few seconds over a time limit at 22:00 in the evening because the train they're waiting for is delayed.

 

[jellybaby]

It's about people finding *somewhere* to wait within a reasonable distance ... where they're not going to get an automated fine if they go a few seconds over a time limit at 22:00 in the evening because the train they're waiting for is delayed.

The thing I don't quite understand is all the folk meeting passengers off a GTR service that haven't checked to see if it is on time before setting out! Wait at home in front of the fire with a dog curled up at your feet and a good book or three.