Arriva Rail North DOO

[northwichcat]

I know of a new set of drivers diagrams that was brought in at one particular TOC because a consultancy company claimed their algorithms could do the diagrams much more efficiently and save some diagrams per day so less drivers required. It was ditched within couple of weeks because the computer algorithm didn’t have scope for all the factors associated with train planning that an experienced planner knows to take into consideration and allow pathing time for.

Royal Mail did something similar when they replaced a postie on a bike doing one round each with two posties sharing a van doing two rounds between them. The problem was some posties walk much quicker than others, so pairing them up meant the quick walking ones were slowed down, plus on short distances vans are quicker than bikes.

 

[HH]

I know of a new set of drivers diagrams that was brought in at one particular TOC because a consultancy company claimed their algorithms could do the diagrams much more efficiently and save some diagrams per day so less drivers required. It was ditched within couple of weeks because the computer algorithm didn’t have scope for all the factors associated with train planning that an experienced planner knows to take into consideration and allow pathing time for. computers are only and will continue to be only as good as the data they are fed and how good or bad they are programmed.

Tracsis software has been used by the industry for many years now; you very much have to know how to use it, but it does work.

OTOH I know at least three owning groups who have tried to introduce replacements, which their proponents claimed would generate significant savings; none have delivered.

 

[northwichcat]

Morning peak train terminated short yesterday morning due to the guard taking ill. Passengers certainly didn't seem happy about being dumped at a rural unstaffed station with some blaming Northern's profit mentality for refusing to allow the service to continue without the 'ticket seller.' RMT note misleading passengers can work against you. (If it was an evening peak service passengers would have at least had the option of the village pub.)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The newly updated weekly "feast days" in the Northern Rail liturgical franchise area:-

Easter Monday
Shrove Tuesday
Ash Wednesday
Maundy Thursday
Good Friday
RMT Saturday
Overtime Sunday

 

[Intermodal]

Morning peak train terminated short yesterday morning due to the guard taking ill. Passengers certainly didn't seem happy about being dumped at a rural unstaffed station with some blaming Northern's profit mentality for refusing to allow the service to continue without the 'ticket seller.' RMT note misleading passengers can work against you. (If it was an evening peak service passengers would have at least had the option of the village pub.)

That's a sad state of affairs for public opinion.

 

[142Pilot]

It's also misleading and shows how daft the people on the mid Cheshire line are.

The guard broke an ankle stepping onto the platform.

There are no units available that would allow Doo on that backwater of a line, so the offloading of passengers was always about to happen.

Non story.

 

[Intermodal]

It's also misleading and shows how daft the people on the mid Cheshire line are.

While it is convenient to write their opinion off as irrelevent because they are "daft" - the number of people who will have been told of the "farce" when they had to get off the train because the "ticket checker" fell over and Arriva "couldn't be bothered" to run the train without one will be in the hundreds. Public support is important even if they are "daft". I could see myself responding to such a story that "they should just get rid of them anyway if it's going to make trains late", if I had no industry knowledge.

 

[northernchris]

It's also misleading and shows how daft the people on the mid Cheshire line are.

The guard broke an ankle stepping onto the platform.

There are no units available that would allow Doo on that backwater of a line, so the offloading of passengers was always about to happen.

Non story.

Hope the guard is OK! Agree, it is a non story

 

[northwichcat]

It's also misleading and shows how daft the people on the mid Cheshire line are.

The guard broke an ankle stepping onto the platform.

There are no units available that would allow Doo on that backwater of a line, so the offloading of passengers was always about to happen.

Non story.

I've never said it was on the Mid-Cheshire line so you can't be sure it's the incident I was referring to. However, the bottom line is the passengers have believed the RMT lie about the DOO dispute relating to Northern putting profit being passengers but not believed the RMT claim about the guard being there for passenger safety, believing that he's nothing more than a revenue person.

Saying that as I recently cared for a relative who broke their ankle meaning they couldn't go up and down stairs or leave the house other than when assisted by an ambulance for a couple of months if the guard's ankle break is equally as bad I hope the Northern sick pay scheme is good, as they'll be off work for a long time.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It's also misleading and shows how daft the people on the mid Cheshire line are.

How nice. Most passengers don't know the in's and out's of the DOO issue like you.

 

[northwichcat]

How nice. Most passengers don't know the in's and out's of the DOO issue like you.

Indeed. It's not the passenger's fault if they believe the RMT are lying but don't identify the lie correctly. They should be credited with correctly understanding that the RMT aren't always telling the truth.

 

[Carlisle]

There are no units available that would allow Doo on that backwater of a line, so the offloading of passengers was always about to happen.

Non story.

Been said on here the only 2 northern routes deemed totally unsuitable for DCO clearance are the Cumbrian coast and Whitby lines

 

[142Pilot]

I've never said it was on the Mid-Cheshire line so you can't be sure it's the incident I was referring to. However, the bottom line is the passengers have believed the RMT lie about the DOO dispute relating to Northern putting profit being passengers but not believed the RMT claim about the guard being there for passenger safety, believing that he's nothing more than a revenue person.

Saying that as I recently cared for a relative who broke their ankle meaning they couldn't go up and down stairs or leave the house other than when assisted by an ambulance for a couple of months if the guard's ankle break is equally as bad I hope the Northern sick pay scheme is good, as they'll be off work for a long time.

I can be sure of the incident. I spoke to the driver today. So unless more than one guard broke a leg yesterday, and caused a service to be cancelled and ran direct to Piccadilly where an ambulance was waiting as Plumley is not great for waiting around at then I am sure it's the mid Cheshire line.

And to answer someone else going on about routes - read what I put. I said UNITS not route.

 

[northwichcat]

I can be sure of the incident. I spoke to the driver today. So unless more than one guard broke a leg yesterday, and caused a service to be cancelled and ran direct to Piccadilly where an ambulance was waiting as Plumley is not great for waiting around at then I am sure it's the mid Cheshire line.

I didn't say anything about a guard breaking their leg or a service running directly to Piccadilly after terminating short. Given there were two Mid-Cheshire line services affected by crew issues yesterday morning I'd be surprised if there weren't any on other lines.

 

[142Pilot]

No, but I did.

And I am not aware of any other guard breaking an ankle yesterday across the network. I am not aware of any other trains being emptied at small villages.

So using the powers of deduction I narrowed it down to the mid Cheshire line. Which leads me to what I put. Also you seem to think it's the most important piece of track in the north - and where else would you find this knowledge out - I am assuming you are a local user otherwise you are going off hearsay.

I mean we could piss about like this all night - are we talking about one and the same?

 

[northwichcat]

No, but I did.

And I am not aware of any other guard breaking an ankle yesterday across the network. I am not aware of any other trains being emptied at small villages.

So using the powers of deduction I narrowed it down to the mid Cheshire line. Which leads me to what I put.

I mean we could piss about like this all night - are we talking about one and the same?

It doesn't really matter where the incident happened, unless you think the opinion of passengers from Northwich is more or less valid than ones from Harrogate, St Helens or Penistone. I didn't say the guard I was referring to broke their ankle and I have no idea if that is the case but as you mentioned it I just sympathised with the recovery process from a broken ankle. The reason the guard couldn't continue also isn't relevant to the original point I was making, it's just the fact the guard couldn't continue led to a service being terminated short at a time when the RMT are arguing that's what should happen forever in such circumstances.

 

[Jonfun]

The high likelihood is if even if it had been another member of staff such as an RPI for instance following an accident of that nature the train would be significantly delayed awaiting an ambulance and would probably have ended up being cancelled. I know we've had cancelled trains when the catering staff have suffered serious injuries on board in the past due to the delay in awaiting an ambulance meaning the next train an hour later is already racking up its own delay minutes sitting stuck behind the one in the platform.

 

[Robertj21a]

The high likelihood is if even if it had been another member of staff such as an RPI for instance following an accident of that nature the train would be significantly delayed awaiting an ambulance and would probably have ended up being cancelled. I know we've had cancelled trains when the catering staff have suffered serious injuries on board in the past due to the delay in awaiting an ambulance meaning the next train an hour later is already racking up its own delay minutes sitting stuck behind the one in the platform.

But if it had been DOO there wouldn't have been a 2nd member of staff to get injured.........

 

[northwichcat]

The high likelihood is if even if it had been another member of staff such as an RPI for instance following an accident of that nature the train would be significantly delayed awaiting an ambulance and would probably have ended up being cancelled. I know we've had cancelled trains when the catering staff have suffered serious injuries on board in the past due to the delay in awaiting an ambulance meaning the next train an hour later is already racking up its own delay minutes sitting stuck behind the one in the platform.

The ECS to Piccadilly ran 15 minutes later than the scheduled passenger departure in the incident referred to: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/PLM/2018/10/19/0745?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[northwichcat]

But if it had been DOO there wouldn't have been a 2nd member of staff to get injured.........

DOO services could have 6 members of staff on board, it just means the driver is the only operational member of staff on board

 

[ComUtoR]

DOO services could have 6 members of staff on board, it just means the driver is the only operational member of staff on board

You need to rethink that.

 

[northwichcat]

You need to rethink that.

One person essential to make the train run then but other people can do other duties on board like customer service, revenue, catering or security.

 

[Jonfun]

But if it had been DOO there wouldn't have been a 2nd member of staff to get injured.........

Well, quite.

The same could apply, of course, to a passenger suffering an accident too. The railway doesn't undertake to see anyone suffer a serious injury, help them to the nearest bench, then leave them to await their own ambulance at an unstaffed station or leave them writhing in pain in a vestibule because the timetable says they should have been gone three minutes before.

 

[ComUtoR]

One person essential to make the train run then but other people can do other duties on board like customer service, revenue, catering or security.

Again, you need to rethink that.

 

[Robertj21a]

DOO services could have 6 members of staff on board, it just means the driver is the only operational member of staff on board

They could have any number - but they can, and do already, often have just the driver.

 

[142Pilot]

It doesn't really matter where the incident happened, unless you think the opinion of passengers from Northwich is more or less valid than ones from Harrogate, St Helens or Penistone. I didn't say the guard I was referring to broke their ankle and I have no idea if that is the case but as you mentioned it I just sympathised with the recovery process from a broken ankle. The reason the guard couldn't continue also isn't relevant to the original point I was making, it's just the fact the guard couldn't continue led to a service being terminated short at a time when the RMT are arguing that's what should happen forever in such circumstances.

The location is important. The passengers on said line have a very high opinion of themselves, and are more inclined to believe anyone but a trade union.

Also, you mentioned passengers being upset that it couldn't continue without the guard, and linked it to the current RMT dispute.

That line is not going to see doo capable units. So it will be guarded for at least the next 5 years.

That is the link.

 

[Starmill]

Again, you need to rethink that.

Why? Responding to factual statements with "you need to rethink that" does not actually mean that there is something there that needs to be thought about again just because you say so.

If you mean to add something, contest something, or clarify something from the post, then you should spell it out in your reply. Not simply say 'think again'. This is how forums such as this work.

 

[Starmill]

The location is important. The passengers on said line have a very high opinion of themselves, and are more inclined to believe anyone but a trade union.

They do? Surely they would use reliable, well-furnished and modern modes if transport rather than the mid Cheshire line if that were true.

 

[142Pilot]

They do? Surely they would use reliable, well-furnished and modern modes if transport rather than the mid Cheshire line if that were true.

Having an opinion of one's self and having the funds and patience to sit through the a556/a56 corridor daily don't always align

 

[Kite159]

At Barnetby this afternoon I spotted a 144 coming from the Brigg direction (might have been this service (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N41512/2018/10/20/advanced))

I assume it is driver route knowledge refreshers so the route doesn't drop from their cards due to the non service along that line on strike days?