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Arriva Rail North DOO

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muz379

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I've never said it was on the Mid-Cheshire line so you can't be sure it's the incident I was referring to. However, the bottom line is the passengers have believed the RMT lie about the DOO dispute relating to Northern putting profit being passengers but not believed the RMT claim about the guard being there for passenger safety, believing that he's nothing more than a revenue person.

Saying that as I recently cared for a relative who broke their ankle meaning they couldn't go up and down stairs or leave the house other than when assisted by an ambulance for a couple of months if the guard's ankle break is equally as bad I hope the Northern sick pay scheme is good, as they'll be off work for a long time.

How do you know for a fact that the passengers have believed what you claim to be the RMT lie about the dispute ? Did you speak to every single passenger as they got off the train that actually terminated short ? Did you speak to every single passenger as they waited at the station for the following train or made their alternative travel arrangements ? I suspect we both know the answer to that . Thus meaning all you are really doing is re-hashing this whole anecdote which is already based on hearsay and adding your own projections about what passengers might or might not be thinking .

I mean I dont think your comment holds up to even the most cursory examination . After all had they paid attention to any detail of the dispute but decided that the safety argument that the RMT puts across is incorrect then in this situation their argument would not be about Northern putting profit first in not allowing the train to run without a ticket seller (they would already know the real reason the train could not run) but instead it would be about it being wrong that absence of the second member of crew can cause a cancellation such as this . You really are clutching at straws here . I think its likely many passengers have paid little attention to any detail of the dispute , including comment by the RMT . Meaning that your whole commentary on this rather unfortunate but somewhat rare occurrence is somewhat misguided .

The sick pay scheme is very good .But of course with this being an accident in the workplace its a wholly different situation anyway . Not that it really is any of your business

Been said on here the only 2 northern routes deemed totally unsuitable for DCO clearance are the Cumbrian coast and Whitby lines
I guess that depends on what you believe to be the planned modifications to or planned replacements for the legacy fleet that Northern will continue to operate .
 
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pemma

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How do you know for a fact that the passengers have believed what you claim to be the RMT lie about the dispute ? Did you speak to every single passenger as they got off the train that actually terminated short ? Did you speak to every single passenger as they waited at the station for the following train or made their alternative travel arrangements ? I suspect we both know the answer to that . Thus meaning all you are really doing is re-hashing this whole anecdote which is already based on hearsay and adding your own projections about what passengers might or might not be thinking .

Right let's put the record straight. The RMT yesterday put out another press release where they referred to the franchise de-staffing stations and the planned role out of DOO being the franchise putting profit before safety. Those are both blatant lies as, while the option of de-staffing stations was looked at during the consultation stage (by the request of Peter Wilkinson), the option was not only dismissed but there was a requirement added in to provide staff at unstaffed stations on the Northern Connect network when it starts in December 2019. On the other hand the planned role out of DOO/DCO is a DfT decision, so it would be happening even if the railways were nationalised and may happen even quicker if the railway as nationalised. Certain people are spending considerable amounts of time posting the RMT's lies over social media, I responded to 5 tweets yesterday about so called de-staffing of stations, asking do they have any evidence of that other than the option in the 2015 franchise consultation, which was dismissed and guess what 3 people didn't respond, 1 gave an abusive response about me not understanding what the dispute is about and then blocked me before I could reply to that and another just blocked me.

I get that you don't like what I posted and you want to believe the fantasy scenario that the passengers are largely backing the RMT and you know it's a ridiculous question to ask if I interviewed every single passenger. However, I can assure you despite many people complaining about being thrown off the train and going to being late for work because of it that not one person said they wouldn't have wanted to stay on the train if they had been allowed to stay on or started arguing that it was the right thing for passengers to be thrown off due to the absence of the guard. I don't know what alternative travel arrangements you are suggesting - the only person who got alternative travel arrangements was the guard, if you think taxis are in plentiful supply in the morning peak in a rural village think again, they are pretty much all being used to transport schoolkids from isolated communities and disabled schoolkids who have to go to special schools. Passengers number one priority is almost always getting to where they want to be at the scheduled time not having a guard on the train.

I think its likely many passengers have paid little attention to any detail of the dispute , including comment by the RMT

Given the RMT have repeated the same old "evil German firm putting profit before safety by axing guards" story for each of the 32 strike days I'm pretty sure the passengers who've listened to or read the news know exactly what the RMT claim is the main reason behind the dispute. OK there's some who don't take notice of the news and there's some who know better than to believe the RMT but for those who listened the RMT's misinformation and lies are backfiring.
 

DaveB10780

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I get that you don't like what I posted and you want to believe the fantasy scenario that the passengers are largely backing the RMT
Nobody I know supports the RMT we just get on with the inconvenience because, sadly, there is no other option open to us. All goodwill is long gone, probably never to return.
 

pemma

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The location is important. The passengers on said line have a very high opinion of themselves, and are more inclined to believe anyone but a trade union.

Have you been to Northwich or Lostock Gralam? The people who live there are mainly working class Labour supporters, while those commuting from Chester to Manchester will use the TfW service and the number using the village stations between Mouldsworth and Cuddington to Knutsford and beyond being very small. It seems you want to insult people like a lifeguard who works at Knutsford Leisure Centre, a cashier who works at Aldi, a barista who works as Costa etc. because you have prejudice against anyone who lives in a county which is overall affluent and you don't understand the diverse range of people who live in the county.

Also, you mentioned passengers being upset that it couldn't continue without the guard, and linked it to the current RMT dispute.

That line is not going to see doo capable units. So it will be guarded for at least the next 5 years.

That is the link.

So the second person of staff can only be taken ill or get injured on a route without DCO/DOO capable trains? No. So that's why the line is irrelevant. Also if Northern are to be believed the routes which will get new trains and DCO/DOO are subject to negotiation due to the trade union dispute with them only currently saying Manchester Airport to Blackpool/Windermere will get new trains. Yes there will still be instances where the same thing happens even if Northern implement DCO on '50% of passenger mileage' but there will also be instances where the problem can be avoided if the RMT agree to allow a train to operate without the second person in an emergency and the passengers will be much happier in those instances.
 

ComUtoR

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Why? Responding to factual statements with "you need to rethink that" does not actually mean that there is something there that needs to be thought about again just because you say so.

It is not a factual statement. It is a misleading one and part of which is a sticking point with the RMT/ASLEF/RSSB?TOC and the entire DOO debate.

If you mean to add something, contest something, or clarify something from the post, then you should spell it out in your reply. Not simply say 'think again'. This is how forums such as this work.

Why ? Its been posted many times regarding DOO being ONLY The Driver onboard the train. It was posted up the thread and always crops up during this debate. Nobody is listening and spouting misleading comments as to what constitutes DOO and continually misunderstands by almost deliberately misrepresenting the term 'Operation'

It was even clarified when there was direct quotes from the franchise agreement.

But, because people still do not listen :


https://www.rssb.co.uk/dcocontent/safety-of-driver-controlled-cperation-june-2018.pdf said:
Driver-and-conductor operated
The conductor – or guard - is responsible for closing the doors and determining that it is safe to start the train. The conductor is normally responsible for releasing the
doors as well.

Driver controlled operation (DCO)
The train driver is responsible for door operation and determining that it is safe to start the train, although other auxiliary members of staff may be provided on the train

Driver only operation (DOO)
The train driver is responsible for door operation and determining that it is safe to start the train, and is the only member of staff on the train

https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/gert8000-gloss%20iss%203.pdf said:
Driver only (or DO Train) A train that is worked only by a driver and does not have a guard

So sticking other members of staff onboard = DCO

Part of the 'sticking point' is what constitutes 'auxiliary staff' and would a cleaner for example be enough to satisfy DCO ? Equally would a catering service be enough to satisfy DCO requirements ? Both will be highly doubtful so it would be very disingenuous to suggest they would count as 'auxiliary staff' as the clear intention of DCO is to have an OBS style role who is booked to be there, will stay with the train throughout its journey, and have at least some form of competence. Basically still a Guard without the door requirements so that if an accident happened, such as a broken ankle, the service can then be worked forward with JUST THE DRIVER as DOO

The TOCs need that ability to run as DOO and for that they need the first domino to fall; that being DCO. So irrespective of what the TOCS may claim is just about 'opening and closing doors' it truly isn't. If they would agree for all Guards to remain but run every single service as DCO and no DOO whatsoever then, I suspect, this entire debacle would be over with the stroke of a pen. Each side pretty much gets exactly what they want. The RMT keep staff onboard with little change to terms and conditions, the TOC gets the Drivers to do the doors ergo freeing up the Guard, and passengers get a second member of staff onboard.

As a DOO Driver I am fully aware of how it operates, where on my TOC it is allowed, and all the issues both positive and negative about it.

So yes, jcollins needs to rethink what he is stating as DOO. It's been posted numerous times.
 

ComUtoR

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So presumably you think a train should be cancelled if catering staff are unavailable? If not explain what you are referring to rather than trolling my posts.

Do you really believe catering staff have any place in the debate about DOO and DCO ? Do you really believe that the RSSB would count catering staff as a requirement of DCO ? Do you realize that if catering staff count for DCO purposes they will need to be booked on the trains entire trip and if they stepped off outside a DOO agreed area the service will 100% have to be cancelled ?
 

muz379

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Right let's put the record straight. The RMT yesterday put out another press release where they referred to the franchise de-staffing stations and the planned role out of DOO being the franchise putting profit before safety. Those are both blatant lies as, while the option of de-staffing stations was looked at during the consultation stage (by the request of Peter Wilkinson), the option was not only dismissed but there was a requirement added in to provide staff at unstaffed stations on the Northern Connect network when it starts in December 2019. On the other hand the planned role out of DOO/DCO is a DfT decision, so it would be happening even if the railways were nationalised and may happen even quicker if the railway as nationalised. Certain people are spending considerable amounts of time posting the RMT's lies over social media, I responded to 5 tweets yesterday about so called de-staffing of stations, asking do they have any evidence of that other than the option in the 2015 franchise consultation, which was dismissed and guess what 3 people didn't respond, 1 gave an abusive response about me not understanding what the dispute is about and then blocked me before I could reply to that and another just blocked me.
Just so you are aware putting "lets put the record straight" does not make your post any more factual or authoritative . In fact if anything it just demonstrates to me that you have weak response to the substantive points I put to you , many of which you have not even bothered to respond to . great start there , not .

Anyway , im not particularly interested in what you spent your saturday afternoon doing , but am glad you found fulfilling activities to occupy the time . Why are you now going on about what the RMT is saying about destaffing stations , it is not remotely relevant to the story about the passengers kicked off the train because the guard could no longer work it forward . In effect all I was interested in was your claim that passengers did not beleive what the RMT was saying about the safety argument for a guranteed guard on every train . But instead of saying it is not necessary these passengers supposedly blamed the TOC for putting profit first and not allowing a train to run without one . As I said that does not hold up to even the most cursory analysis , what you are saying is quite simply illogical .

I get that you don't like what I posted and you want to believe the fantasy scenario that the passengers are largely backing the RMT and you know it's a ridiculous question to ask if I interviewed every single passenger. However, I can assure you despite many people complaining about being thrown off the train and going to being late for work because of it that not one person said they wouldn't have wanted to stay on the train if they had been allowed to stay on or started arguing that it was the right thing for passengers to be thrown off due to the absence of the guard. I don't know what alternative travel arrangements you are suggesting - the only person who got alternative travel arrangements was the guard, if you think taxis are in plentiful supply in the morning peak in a rural village think again, they are pretty much all being used to transport schoolkids from isolated communities and disabled schoolkids who have to go to special schools. Passengers number one priority is almost always getting to where they want to be at the scheduled time not having a guard on the train.
And I get that you dont like the RMT . But come on , even you must see that you are clutching at straws here . Not once in my comment did I mention any supposed public support for the RMT . In fact I considered at length the idea that many passengers might have accepted your view that the RMT are lying . But even then , as i say above logically what they then went on to say according to your version of events does not correspond with them having listened at any length to any detail about the dispute and decided the RMT is lying .

So just to confirm , you did not interview any of the passengers , or witness any of this event in question . So really all you are doing here is giving your opinion on the basis of hearsay and your own dislike of the RMT and assumption that everyone else holds the same view .

As for alternative transport . I dont know how the passengers completed their journey, I just as yourself was not there . But It seems reasonable to suggest that perhaps some of them returned home for their cars or rung partners/friends for a lift . Not that it is really that important to the detail of the story anyhow .

Given the RMT have repeated the same old "evil German firm putting profit before safety by axing guards" story for each of the 32 strike days I'm pretty sure the passengers who've listened to or read the news know exactly what the RMT claim is the main reason behind the dispute. OK there's some who don't take notice of the news and there's some who know better than to believe the RMT but for those who listened the RMT's misinformation and lies are backfiring.
Again , just your own view with no actual evidence to back it up . I repeat again in case it is not entirely clear you are putting words into the mouths of passengers you have never met and just heard a story about . We could all do that . But its not entirely helpful . I know you will probably come back and say I dont like it when people say that about the RMT . Perhaps not , however as I already alluded to , I am not saying that there is universal passenger support for the position of the RMT or action . As I say its more likely that the vast majority of passengers actually have paid little if any interest in the detail of the dispute and see ongoing industrial action as a common problem with the railways in this country .
 

142Pilot

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Have you been to Northwich or Lostock Gralam? The people who live there are mainly working class Labour supporters, while those commuting from Chester to Manchester will use the TfW service and the number using the village stations between Mouldsworth and Cuddington to Knutsford and beyond being very small. It seems you want to insult people like a lifeguard who works at Knutsford Leisure Centre, a cashier who works at Aldi, a barista who works as Costa etc. because you have prejudice against anyone who lives in a county which is overall affluent and you don't understand the diverse range of people who live in the county.



So the second person of staff can only be taken ill or get injured on a route without DCO/DOO capable trains? No. So that's why the line is irrelevant. Also if Northern are to be believed the routes which will get new trains and DCO/DOO are subject to negotiation due to the trade union dispute with them only currently saying Manchester Airport to Blackpool/Windermere will get new trains. Yes there will still be instances where the same thing happens even if Northern implement DCO on '50% of passenger mileage' but there will also be instances where the problem can be avoided if the RMT agree to allow a train to operate without the second person in an emergency and the passengers will be much happier in those instances.

I used to live there.

Thanks for playing.

The guard didn't have alternative arrangements. They remained on the train in absolute agony and was taken to Piccadilly.
 

pemma

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Just so you are aware putting "lets put the record straight" does not make your post any more factual or authoritative . In fact if anything it just demonstrates to me that you have weak response to the substantive points I put to you , many of which you have not even bothered to respond to . great start there , not .

Want to check what I'm saying - scan for the relevant bits in the Northern franchise agreement. What to check what the RMT is saying - there's no evidence for some of their claims and their members can get abusive when you ask where they have got their information from.

Anyway , im not particularly interested in what you spent your saturday afternoon doing , but am glad you found fulfilling activities to occupy the time .

Maybe I would have gone somewhere if it wasn't for a selfish trade union striking again :roll:

Why are you now going on about what the RMT is saying about destaffing stations it is not remotely relevant to the story about the passengers kicked off the train because the guard could no longer work it forward . In effect all I was interested in was your claim that passengers did not beleive what the RMT was saying about the safety argument for a guranteed guard on every train . But instead of saying it is not necessary these passengers supposedly blamed the TOC for putting profit first and not allowing a train to run without one . As I said that does not hold up to even the most cursory analysis , what you are saying is quite simply illogical .

The RMT add in an untrue claim about destaffing stations in their DOO dispute releases every time. I don't know why they do it - do you? It's not true and they aren't the union representing station staff. However, because they add in a claim which is known to be false it casts doubt over all their claims.


And I get that you dont like the RMT . But come on , even you must see that you are clutching at straws here . Not once in my comment did I mention any supposed public support for the RMT . In fact I considered at length the idea that many passengers might have accepted your view that the RMT are lying . But even then , as i say above logically what they then went on to say according to your version of events does not correspond with them having listened at any length to any detail about the dispute and decided the RMT is lying .

So just to confirm , you did not interview any of the passengers , or witness any of this event in question . So really all you are doing here is giving your opinion on the basis of hearsay and your own dislike of the RMT and assumption that everyone else holds the same view .

As for alternative transport . I dont know how the passengers completed their journey, I just as yourself was not there . But It seems reasonable to suggest that perhaps some of them returned home for their cars or rung partners/friends for a lift . Not that it is really that important to the detail of the story anyhow .

I don't think you understand the passengers were dumped in a village which has a few houses, some farms and a pub. Northern provide the only public transport service in that village. The only real option available to them for onward travel were to wait for the next train, getting a train back home is unlikely to be quicker when the trains aren't that frequent and the other direction is the 'counter peak' direction at that time.

Again , just your own view with no actual evidence to back it up . I repeat again in case it is not entirely clear you are putting words into the mouths of passengers you have never met and just heard a story about . We could all do that . But its not entirely helpful . I know you will probably come back and say I dont like it when people say that about the RMT . Perhaps not , however as I already alluded to , I am not saying that there is universal passenger support for the position of the RMT or action . As I say its more likely that the vast majority of passengers actually have paid little if any interest in the detail of the dispute and see ongoing industrial action as a common problem with the railways in this country .

So basically you're accusing me of being a liar now because you don't want to believe me. Pathetic! I'm adding you to the ignore list.
 

pemma

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The guard didn't have alternative arrangements. They remained on the train in absolute agony and was taken to Piccadilly.

Ah OK I got what you said and what @Jonfun speculated mixed up. However, technically the guard did get alternative travel arrangements as the train ran express getting him to Piccadilly earlier than the passenger arrival was scheduled to arrive.
 

pemma

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Do you really believe catering staff have any place in the debate about DOO and DCO ? Do you really believe that the RSSB would count catering staff as a requirement of DCO ? Do you realize that if catering staff count for DCO purposes they will need to be booked on the trains entire trip and if they stepped off outside a DOO agreed area the service will 100% have to be cancelled ?

No but all you were posting was 'Try again' in response to multiple posts I post, posting something like that was the only way of getting you to post something with any meaning. Why don't you say what you think instead of asking me to guess what you think time and time again? The UK Railway Discussion thread isn't the place on this forum for playing guessing games.
 

ComUtoR

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The difference between DCO and DOO has been discussed many times and you yourself have been involved in that debate.
 

Jonfun

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Do you really believe catering staff have any place in the debate about DOO and DCO ? Do you really believe that the RSSB would count catering staff as a requirement of DCO ? Do you realize that if catering staff count for DCO purposes they will need to be booked on the trains entire trip and if they stepped off outside a DOO agreed area the service will 100% have to be cancelled ?

Why not? If a ticket inspector counts for "DCO" why not catering staff? You can't run a double 220/221/222 without a member of catering staff in the other unit unless there's two Train Managers, if the staff member gets off halfway through the trip then the unstaffed half is taken out of service.

I think some people forget that Catering Staff often get more comprehensive safety training than Ticket Examiners. The easy solution to these discrepancies of course would be to have a national competency framework so that whatever it says on your name badge, you get the appropriate standard training to fulfil the role of "second person" on a DCO/DOO train.
 

ComUtoR

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The easy solution to these discrepancies of course would be to have a national competency framework so that whatever it says on your name badge, you get the appropriate standard training to fulfil the role of "second person" on a DCO/DOO train.

I would agree. I think you posted this before ? I was just going back through the thread to find 'other' things and this came up. I would fully support a national competency framework. If I remember right this point has been brought up by the RMT where they want clarification about what 'auxiliary staff' means.

As I mentioned, if they were agreed to be a 'second person' they would need to be booked on a service and yes if they stepped off then the service could then be cancelled if it didn't meed the requirements. I highly doubt that a TOC will want to book catering staff on a DCO service and having more people who are considered 'second persons' starts to become impractical and the RSSB would need to set out and maintain competencies for more roles. I don't believe that would happen and neither do I believe that is the intent of DCO. If DCO was rolled out and catering staff were not provided than I can imagine the hell that would break loose if the service was cancelled.

I struggle to understand why this list of 'auxiliary staff' is not already set out before DCO is implemented. I certainly believe the intent is that the OBS role is the 'second person' and whatever equivalent role another TOC brings in falls under that umbrella term. PERSONALLY I think that the second person should be rolled out as an OBS and the grade be supported and competencies maintained accordingly. If DCO is then rolled out then they can state quite clearly that the new role to fulfill DCO requirements will be the OBS.

As an aside; my TOCs catering has gone through numerous changes. Are most, any, some catering staff still under direct TOC employment that they can roster etc or under a franchise, sub contract etc where the TOC lets them organize and distribute their staff and services ? Cheers in advance.
 

CN75

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Mick’s latest ghost-written communication.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/members...and-extension-of-doo-arriva-rail-north201018/

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Our Ref: BR2/0146
20th October 2018


Management’s Latest Fiction – Here is the Truth

Dear Colleague,

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO - ARRIVA RAIL NORTH


You probably have by now received management’s latest fiction on their slant on the current dispute. Of course if they tried to get it published as a book it would be turned down as being just too far-fetched!

Firstly ‘750 services operated today’ is just plain fantasy. It has been reported in the media that less than 10% of services ran. Indeed the company ran as few as 172 a few weeks back and it’s been under 250 most Saturdays since early September.

Northern has not been trying to resolve the dispute since before it began they have been adamant they want to implement DOO. They did not engage in any talks around their plans with the company council before we went in to dispute. They wanted to discuss matters in ‘operational change’ meetings with the only focus upon delivering DCO!

‘Jobs won’t be axed’ no they will not be on day one. Day two of course is a different matter. This whole exercise is about cutting jobs and increasing profits at the expense of customers so that shareholders can be paid higher dividends. Conductors will be placed in other roles resulting in vacancies in other positions being unavailable to members and new joiners. Will your pay be ‘ring-fenced’ meaning that you receive no pay rises until the job you are accommodated in matches the Conductor’s rate – a very real possibility. This could mean no pay rise for many years.

And we couldn’t make it any clearer – I have advised you continuously that the RMT is always prepared to get back round the table – and we are now. We would meet next week to try and resolve this dispute. But all the talk of ‘original scope’ and ‘default position’ are red herrings our position is, and always has been, clear throughout this dispute.

It is also a desperate act to put out a copy of a letter that was sent to the union yesterday. This is extremely unprofessional to put it mildly. We will consider it urgently and respond to both the company and you as we always do. We have no hidden agenda, we have never deviated from the position that you have fought for so magnificently - a Guard on every train with full safety critical responsibilities.

To reiterate the union is ready to meet with the company at any point, we’ll even consider suspending the action if the talks are meaningful and the company know this. But I would like to make it clear for us to consider this the talks need to be around the retention of a Guard. This is what you have voted for, this is what you demand.

You have been magnificent throughout this dispute to put it mildly! We demand a Guard on every train, the public demand a Guard on every train, the disabled, elderly, young, deserve a Guard on every train and that is why you have their support as well. People before profits.

Support your Colleagues

Support the Strikes

Support your Union

Yours sincerely,

Mick Cash

General Secretary
 
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pemma

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The difference between DCO and DOO has been discussed many times and you yourself have been involved in that debate.

As this is the Northern thread I would presume people are referring to Northern's plan regardless of whether they say DCO or DOO, especially considering there's many who refuse to accept DCO is a valid term as it's not in their 'rule book.'
 

CN75

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As this is the Northern thread I would presume people are referring to Northern's plan regardless of whether they say DCO or DOO, especially considering there's many who refuse to accept DCO is a valid term as it's not in their 'rule book.'

Northern want to run some new trains DOO with ex-conductors at stations instead of on board. This would probably reduce the levels of crime on their stations and trains but that doesn’t suit the RMT’s position, which is understandable.
 

Carlisle

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You can't run a double 220/221/222 without a member of catering staff in the other unit unless there's two Train Managers, if the staff member gets off halfway through the trip then the unstaffed half is taken out of service.
That’s a local TOC & union agreement rather than anything laid down by the RSSB given double Voyagers can and did when new run occasionally with no staff members in the rear unit + several other TOCs non gangway stock does so routinely
 
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Confused52

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So Mick Cash states that the RMT requirement is implacably that there be "a Guard on every train with full safety critical responsibilities". And the Franchise Agreement requires that some trains are DCO where ( from the Section 2 of the Agreement) that means "operation of a train by a driver alone without the need for a conductor (or any other Franchise Employee)". If a guard is safety critical he surely has to be there for safe, and therefore legal, operation of the train. If someone other than the driver is critical to the operation of the train then the franchise agreement is broken as tor the relevant services there will not be DCO.

So any statement that the RMT is open to negotiation are bogus, since they are only actually open to ARN breaking the franchise. Will someone explain what I have misunderstood and convince me that the RMT are negotiating in good faith. This DCO requirement doesn't appear in other Franchise Agreements and surely it is no co-incidence that it is the one with the largest public subsidy.
 

Robertj21a

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So Mick Cash states that the RMT requirement is implacably that there be "a Guard on every train with full safety critical responsibilities". And the Franchise Agreement requires that some trains are DCO where ( from the Section 2 of the Agreement) that means "operation of a train by a driver alone without the need for a conductor (or any other Franchise Employee)". If a guard is safety critical he surely has to be there for safe, and therefore legal, operation of the train. If someone other than the driver is critical to the operation of the train then the franchise agreement is broken as tor the relevant services there will not be DCO.

So any statement that the RMT is open to negotiation are bogus, since they are only actually open to ARN breaking the franchise. Will someone explain what I have misunderstood and convince me that the RMT are negotiating in good faith. This DCO requirement doesn't appear in other Franchise Agreements and surely it is no co-incidence that it is the one with the largest public subsidy.

There's nothing new in what Mick Cash is saying (there never is). He's back on the profits/FatCats twaddle that he so loves.

It's ridiculous to maintain a *blanket* insistence on a safety-critical guard on *every* service, but he won't budge an inch. I quite understand that he fears it would become a slippery slope, but that's why it needs a carefully documented contract drawn up to limit any TOC's abuse of the system.
 

Dmouse79

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I see nothing wrong in at least at trial of doo
Better then endless rmt moaning and strikes
 

Lemmy99uk

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The RMT add in an untrue claim about destaffing stations in their DOO dispute releases every time. I don't know why they do it - do you? It's not true and they aren't the union representing station staff. However, because they add in a claim which is known to be false it casts doubt over all their claims.

I’m not sure if this is mistyping or misunderstanding, but the RMT do represent station staff.
 

Carlisle

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So any statement that the RMT is open to negotiation are bogus, since they are only actually open to ARN breaking the franchise. Will someone explain what I have misunderstood and convince me that the RMT are negotiating in good faith.
Your totally correct, but significant achievements by the RMT alongside ASLEFs willingness to ballot if necessary 2-3 years ago prevented all the originally proposed DOO or DCO in similar disputes at Scotrail & GWR. Plus recently signed deals at GA and probably Merseyrail by conceding ground to give up routine door duties, mean a significant proportion of the membership probably still believe northern will back down further
 
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pemma

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I’m not sure if this is mistyping or misunderstanding, but the RMT do represent station staff.

I don't think they are the main union for Northern ticket office staff though. Some drivers are RMT but a RMT driver strike could go unnoticed.
 

Lemmy99uk

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I don't think they are the main union for Northern ticket office staff though. Some drivers are RMT but a RMT driver strike could go unnoticed.

They are definitely the main union for ticket office staff. The only other union that represents them is TSSA, but they are in the minority
 

Carlisle

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They are definitely the main union for ticket office staff. The only other union that represents them is TSSA, but they are in the minority
I always believed TSSA to be the main union for ticket office staff, A large proportion of platform staff are probably RMT but I know some are TSSA
 

Lemmy99uk

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I always believed TSSA to be the main union for ticket office staff, A large proportion of platform staff are probably RMT but I know some are TSSA

Many years ago the TSSA was exactly what it said on the tin, i.e. the union for salaried rail workers rather than hourly waged workers such as guards and station staff.

In the modern railway everyone is salaried of course, but the distinction remains. TSSA tends to represent the lower and middle managers and the more senior supervisors whilst the RMT represents most of the ‘front line’ staff including the booking offices.

I estimate that in the area I worked in it would have been 95% RMT in booking offices.
 

Kite159

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Although would anybody notice if the RMT staff in the booking offices decided to go on strike?

How long before some the railways of the north are ripped up and replaced by express busways? :lol:
 

muz379

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Want to check what I'm saying - scan for the relevant bits in the Northern franchise agreement. What to check what the RMT is saying - there's no evidence for some of their claims and their members can get abusive when you ask where they have got their information from.



Maybe I would have gone somewhere if it wasn't for a selfish trade union striking again :roll:



The RMT add in an untrue claim about destaffing stations in their DOO dispute releases every time. I don't know why they do it - do you? It's not true and they aren't the union representing station staff. However, because they add in a claim which is known to be false it casts doubt over all their claims.




I don't think you understand the passengers were dumped in a village which has a few houses, some farms and a pub. Northern provide the only public transport service in that village. The only real option available to them for onward travel were to wait for the next train, getting a train back home is unlikely to be quicker when the trains aren't that frequent and the other direction is the 'counter peak' direction at that time.



So basically you're accusing me of being a liar now because you don't want to believe me. Pathetic! I'm adding you to the ignore list.
I find 2 things here very interesting . Firstly the hypocrisy of complaining about a union supposedly saying untrue things , and then when you question supposed members of that union on twitter they block you . But then when you are questioned as to the factual nature of statements you claim some passengers have made you to seek to exclude any further contact with the person questioning you .

Although I would of course caution against claiming that what the RMT are saying is untrue just on the basis of details from the published version of the franchise agreement . Franchise agreements can be changed , and commitments in franchise agreements are not always met . There are already some with this franchise that have not been met , and there could be more in future . Just because the franchise agreement says one thing does not mean that the TOC has not discussed an amendment with the DFT and have approached the union to discuss this .

Secondly I find it interesting that the only substantive point you have bothered to reply to is the largely uncontentious point about how the passengers made their onward journey but trying to insult me by saying I dont understand . I am well aware that there was no other convenient public transport available thank you . But that might not have stopped some ringing relatives/friends for a lift or abandoning their journey , neither of us was there so really we dont actually know .But anyway , i am not really disputing that the vast majority if not all passengers would have had to wait for the next train .
 
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