Why can't driving licences be used instead of Photocards for Season Ticket ID?

[Cdd89]

Looking through my wallet, I have:

• A season ticket
• A photocard
• A drivers license

Obviously, photocards would always need to be available. But for those passengers who have UK driving licenses, why can’t the last five characters of the driving license number be entered into the “Photocard Number” portion of the ticket and used instead for the Photo ID portion?

 

[Intermodal]

I like the idea, I've not heard it before and I am struggling to think of a 'why not'. Clearly photocards would be retained for people without a license.

 

[westv]

I never carry my driving licence with me and.

 

[mafeu]

Just UK licenses? How about EU or international licenses? Perhaps could extended to national ID cards.

I’m not sure I agree as staff would require training for checking ID.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I never carry my driving licence with me and.

Why not?

 

[maniacmartin]

Keeping your bank cards together with something that contains your address and date of birth could make fraud easier for someone who finds your wallet.

Regarding ID for rail tickets, I’ve also wondered why driving licenses couldn’t be used.

 

[AM9]

Looking through my wallet, I have:

• A season ticket
• A photocard
• A drivers license

Obviously, photocards would always need to be available. But for those passengers who have UK driving licenses, why can’t the last five characters of the driving license number be entered into the “Photocard Number” portion of the ticket and used instead for the Photo ID portion?

There's no call for changing the current arrangements as:

Many people have driving licenses that have photographs that are imported from their passports. That means that it a thrid generation picture and often of insufficient quality for (relatively) frequent identity verification.
Just five figures from the whole licence number would not be unique, - it would have less than 10,000 unique combinations, and not necessarily those that use them as season ticket photocards. That's why the number is longer on licences.
The photocard should be carried with the season ticket whenever it is used but a driving licence may not.
One photocard is needed for many season tickets and it only weighs a few grams so there is no problem carrying it.​

I doubt that the railway wants to have a multiplitcity of ID methods. The photcard have worked perfectly well for many decades.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Because the railway lives in the past?

It’s more ridiculous in my case:

• ITSO Smartcard
• Gold Record Card
• Photocard
• Driving Licence

It’s just ridiculous that the railway is incapable of considering other forms of ID- which in reality are significantly harder to forge than the frankly rubbish Photocard!

Indcidentally, I wouldn’t need a Photocard if I only used my season ticket on Southern, Gatwick Express, Thameslink, or Great Northern - occasionally they do something sensible!

 

[andrewkeith5]

There's no call for changing the current arrangements as:

Many people have driving licenses that have photographs that are imported from their passports. That means that it a thrid generation picture and often of insufficient quality for (relatively) frequent identity verification.
Just five figures from the whole licence number would not be unique, - it would have less than 10,000 unique combinations, and not necessarily those that use them as season ticket photocards. That's why the number is longer on licences.
The photocard should be carried with the season ticket whenever it is used but a driving licence may not.
One photocard is needed for many season tickets and it only weighs a few grams so there is no problem carrying it.​

I doubt that the railway wants to have a multiplitcity of ID methods. The photcard have worked perfectly well for many decades.

Why does the number even need to be printed? Just print the name on the ticket? Most have it printed anyway.

Given that Photocards have no expiry date, your argument about the photo sounds like an excuse to me...

 

[westv]

Why not?

Because I have no need to. If it is wanted I know where it is at home.

 

[PeterC]

Quite probably because nobody has had a need to review photocard requirements since the counterpart was abolished. Up until 2015 the fact that the the driving licence was a bulky two part affair involving a paper document and a plastic card made such uses impractical.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

What a curious question. Surely it's because a significant of people who commute by rail do so because they don't drive and therefore don't have a drivers' licence!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Just five figures from the whole licence number would not be unique, - it would have less than 10,000 unique combinations

Sorry for going off at a tangent, but the last five characters are alphanumeric. Mine goes

AA1AA

and I think the format is standard. So assuming all letters and numbers are used, that's 26 * 26 * 10 * 26 * 26 = > 4.5 million possible combinations.

Of course, there are ~60 million people in the country so if everyone has a driving licence there will be thirteen or so for each combination, and the last five characters are not intended to be unique (the rest of the number, based on surname and date of birth has to be taken into account) - but 1:4.5m is nearer to unique than 1:10000.

 

[andrewkeith5]

What a curious question. Surely it's because a significant of people who commute by rail do so because they don't drive and therefore don't have a drivers' licence!

I’m not sure about that. A significant number of people who don’t drive still have a licence, and simply choose not to...

 

[ainsworth74]

Why does the number even need to be printed? Just print the name on the ticket? Most have it printed anyway.

I must admit that was my thought as well. I suppose it might not work for a very lengthy name but ninety-nine times out of a hundred it will work.

Quite probably because nobody has had a need to review photocard requirements since the counterpart was abolished. Up until 2015 the fact that the the driving licence was a bulky two part affair involving a paper document and a plastic card made such uses impractical.

Though the photocard was used as photographic ID well before the paper counterpart was abolished. I used it on numerous occasions as ID without ever needing to present the paper counterpart.

What a curious question. Surely it's because a significant of people who commute by rail do so because they don't drive and therefore don't have a drivers' licence!

So they could still be issued with a railway photocard? For those of us that do have driving licences it would certainly be nice if we could use that instead of an extra piece of card to prove validity. Similarly when I had use of a 16-25 Railcard, what did that photocard prove that couldn't have been easily proved by presentation of a driving license? The licence even has a signature that can be compared with the one on the railcard which the photocard doesn't offer to any inspector of the railcard!

 

[Wallsendmag]

If only we had national ID cards.

 

[AM9]

If only we had national ID cards.

I agree, that should be the only card accepted for ID. Provided there is legal obligation to carry them unless needed for identification purposes when using specific services, I don't see any objection.
But they are pretty useless if they have poor quality recycled passport photos on them.

 

[30907]

Some people might be concerned about having to show a document containing their age, DOB and current address in a public place. Just a thought.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some people might be concerned about having to show a document containing their age, DOB and current address in a public place. Just a thought.

Only if they are paranoid.

Those people could, of course, choose to retain a Railway photocard, in any case.

 

[andrewkeith5]

I agree, that should be the only card accepted for ID. Provided there is legal obligation to carry them unless needed for identification purposes when using specific services, I don't see any objection.
But they are pretty useless if they have poor quality recycled passport photos on them.

I don't understand this photo thing? Railway Photocards have no expiry and any old photo will do. There's no difference in identifying me from the 2010 monochrome picture on my Driving Licence as there is from the colour 2018 picture on my photocard. Come to think of it my photocard from 2007 would probably be perfectly fine for identifying it as mine.

That 'recycled passport photograph' has plenty enough data in it for a computer to recognise enough biometric detail for HM Border Force to be satisfied that it's me when I stand in front of the camera, so I don't think the Railway have any excuse for rejecting it given their much less important use case.

Some people might be concerned about having to show a document containing their age, DOB and current address in a public place. Just a thought.

So get a Photocard instead? This idea is about doing something entirely sensible to help those you would like to do so reduce the amount of stuff they carry around. It would also help stop wasting paper, which probably can't be recycled once turned into a photocard with the plastic bonding.

 

[Basher]

What a curious question. Surely it's because a significant of people who commute by rail do so because they don't drive and therefore don't have a drivers' licence!

Or like me still have a paper licence.

 

[Cdd89]

I think a few of the responses didn't notice the first sentence of my post...

Obviously, photocards would always need to be available.

There are a lot of legitimate reasons why a rail user may not have a driving license. But my idea was that driving licenses could be a secondary (opt-in) method.

I did think of a couple of reasons why it might not be a good idea (playing devil's advocate to my own idea)...

• The Photocard is easier to retain by RPI staff in the event of suspected fraud
• Looking at the driving license number format, the last five characters have less entropy (i.e. are less unpredictable and random) than they may appear. [First/Last Initial, random number that is "usually 9", and two check characters which are more legitimately random]

By the way, my Season Ticket has my name printed on it already (First Initial, Surname).

That said, I completely agree with the post above that the UK transport network is responsible for the proliferation of bits of plastic and paper (I guess we should just be grateful the Gold Card and Season Ticket are on one card...), when in an ideal world it could be just one (or zero!) cards, so what's another one!

 

[gtis]

Or like me still have a paper licence.

I still have a paper license as well

 

[ainsworth74]

And for those that still have paper licences thankfully a railway issued photocard would be available. For those that have photographic licenses however perhaps another option would be nice.

 

[PermitToTravel]

System One bus tickets in Greater Manchester require a photocard. The student tickets require proof of student status to be shown.

Last year S1 stopped requiring separate photocards for student tickets, and just printed the ID number from the student card in the "photocard number" field.

 

[PermitToTravel]

If driving licence number is thought to be insufficiently random/unique for these purposes, there's another number on a driving licence - the "photocard number" at the bottom-left of the rear side.

 

[Lockwood]

Sorry for going off at a tangent, but the last five characters are alphanumeric. Mine goes

AA1AA

There are 27 positions for the second one here.
The first two As are the first two initials of a name, so "Fred John Smith" DoB 01/01/1990 Would have a licence number along the lines of SMITH901010FJ9QQ.
"Fred Smith" of the same doB would have "SMITH901010F99QQ"
QQ being random check characters. The 9 at the end is usually a 9, but may decrement to prevent collisions. This takes us up to 4.7m options for the last five digits.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's unique enough. All you really need is a name, which is good enough for airlines for both revenue protection and security.

 

[northwichcat]

When Labour were going to all the fuss of a National ID card scheme I wondered why a photocard driving licence couldn't just be one, with a new third colour card produced for those who can't drive for whatever reason e.g. due to age or health conditions, alongside the additional provisional green? ones and the full pink ones.

 

[njr001]

Why different NI number, NHS number, driving Licence etc. all in different formats
But I really think the OP has a valid point my wallet is stuffed with various forms of photo ID