Why can't driving licences be used instead of Photocards for Season Ticket ID?

[theblackwatch]

Why not?

Alternatively, why? In case you need it? I've had one for 30 years next month and never had to produce it when out anywhere. It doesn't have a photocard either...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Alternatively, why? In case you need it? I've had one for 30 years next month and never had to produce it when out anywhere. It doesn't have a photocard either...

Why? Because if I need to prove my identity, it is (alongside a passport) the gold standard.

 

[transmanche]

System One bus tickets in Greater Manchester require a photocard. The student tickets require proof of student status to be shown.

Last year S1 stopped requiring separate photocards for student tickets, and just printed the ID number from the student card in the "photocard number" field.

Nexus stopped issuing Tyne & Wear Metro tickets altogether for students at Newcastle University. They just load the ticket onto the student's university ID card, as Newcastle University issue ITSO-compliant student cards.

 

[gordonthemoron]

in other countries with online tickets you need to show ID, passport, driving licence etc. Why can't we do the same?

 

[transmanche]

in other countries with online tickets you need to show ID, passport, driving licence etc. Why can't we do the same?

You can do that for print at home online tickets here. But that's very different to season tickets.

 

[transmanche]

I'm a bit surprised that National Rail still require separate photocards for season tickets anyway.

• There are probably more people using season tickets on Oyster cards than use paper seasons on National Rail - but general Oyster card users don't need photocards at all.
• If I buy a Tyne & Wear Metro season ticket, my Pop smartcard has my photo printed on it - so no need for a separate photocard. (The same goes for the various Oyster cards that offer discounts for children, students, etc.)
• ENCTS cards have a photo on them, so no need for a separate photocard.

Surely the best way is to move all season tickets onto ITSO smartcards. And if a photo is deemed necessary, then print the photo onto the smartcard itself.

 

[westv]

If only we had national ID cards.

And then you end up having everybody having to pay for one rather than those that need ID for a specific purpose and some people having to pay for 2 forms of ID.

 

[AM9]

in other countries with online tickets you need to show ID, passport, driving licence etc. Why can't we do the same?

No reason particularly but there are plenty more important things that we don't seem to be able to manage as well as our neighbours.

 

[theblackwatch]

Why? Because if I need to prove my identity, it is (alongside a passport) the gold standard.

And how many times have you had to unexpectedly prove your identity? Even on the two occasions I have been pulled over by the police while driving, I haven't had to produce my (no photo) driving licence!

 

[PeterC]

If only we had national ID cards.

With the repeated requirements to produce photo id there definitely should be a single approved ID that everybody has.

The new treasurer of a community group that I belong to had great difficulty being accepted by the bank as she had the termerity to be a non driver who doesn't take foreign holidays.

 

[PeterC]

Why different NI number, NHS number, driving Licence etc. all in different formats
But I really think the OP has a valid point my wallet is stuffed with various forms of photo ID

But when you need photo id the only ones that they will accept are still the ones you haven't got with you.

 

[transmanche]

Why different NI number, NHS number, driving Licence etc. all in different formats

A couple of decades ago, Ireland adopted the equivalent of an NI number to be a PPS number (Personal Public Service) number - to be each person's unique identifier for all state services.

 

[Elecman]

With the repeated requirements to produce photo id there definitely should be a single approved ID that everybody has.

The new treasurer of a community group that I belong to had great difficulty being accepted by the bank as she had the termerity to be a non driver who doesn't take foreign holidays.

I am the same an old Green paper Driving Liscence and no passport, my only photo I’d are my work ones and those arent acceptable for financial arrangements !!

 

[Ih8earlies]

Ok. I'm going to highlight a few possible reasons.

1) A photocard issued by a railway company remains the property of the Railway. Therefore if it needed to be withdrawn for any reason - the railway (and railway staff) will be legally entitled to do so. (Fare evasion, stolen season ticket being used etc) The Railway cannot withdraw a Drivers License because it would be theft.

2) A season ticket photocard contains a photo of the bearer. Their name. Title, and photocard number. (New ones also have a barcode). A Drivers License contains all sorts of personal information such as address, dob, etc. Anyone could refuse to show a drivers license at any time to a member of railway staff on the grounds GDPR compliance. This would make ticket checking a train very difficult.

These are just a couple of reasons I can come up with in a couple of minutes. I'm sure there are many more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

1. There is little to be gained by withdrawing a photocard.

2. Someone with that issue wouldn’t agree to it in the first place.

 

[AM9]

... 2. Someone with that issue wouldn’t agree to it in the first place.

Then either they wouldn't use train tickets that needed a photocard or they wouldn't have any ticket so need dealing with on the spot.

 

[mmh]

If only we had national ID cards.

Unlikely to ever happen, the last time it was tried showed it's a can of worms politically that no government will want to reopen.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Ok. I'm going to highlight a few possible reasons.

1) A photocard issued by a railway company remains the property of the Railway. Therefore if it needed to be withdrawn for any reason - the railway (and railway staff) will be legally entitled to do so. (Fare evasion, stolen season ticket being used etc) The Railway cannot withdraw a Drivers License because it would be theft.

2) A season ticket photocard contains a photo of the bearer. Their name. Title, and photocard number. (New ones also have a barcode). A Drivers License contains all sorts of personal information such as address, dob, etc. Anyone could refuse to show a drivers license at any time to a member of railway staff on the grounds GDPR compliance. This would make ticket checking a train very difficult.

These are just a couple of reasons I can come up with in a couple of minutes. I'm sure there are many more.

1) Why on earth would anyone withdraw a photocard? It's a worthless piece of paper and plastic. All that is needed is Photo ID to match the name on the ticket - if it doesn't match the name and the face, withdraw the ticket.

2) Who here is proposing to completely replace the photocard? So far as I can tell, people are just suggesting a perfectly sensible alternative - that, incidentally, is enough for GTR, and that the majority of over-17's in the population carry around with them every day.

Then either they wouldn't use train tickets that needed a photocard or they wouldn't have any ticket so need dealing with on the spot.

Please refer to point 2, above: nobody is proposing a complete replacement of the Photocard. What we're saying is that the railway seems to be pretty backward in insisting on it's own method of photo ID.

 

[mmh]

Looking at the driving license number format, the last five characters have less entropy (i.e. are less unpredictable and random) than they may appear. [First/Last Initial, random number that is "usually 9", and two check characters which are more legitimately random]

I don't know if it's still the case, but historically the entire driver number wasn't guaranteed to be unique. It was probably a statistically small number, but there were duplicates.

Of course as you've said it doesn't really matter when it comes to something like a season ticket photocard though.

I don't understand why you'd prefer to carry a heavier, more important, greater hassle and cost if you lose it driving licence over a rail photocard though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I always carry my driving licence, it is a de facto national ID card.

I’d only lose it if I lost my whole wallet, something I have done, oh, 0 times in 39 years.

 

[Qwerty133]

AFAIK they don't even allow railcard photo cards to be used for season tickets at present which is even less sensible.

 

[Haywain]

It's unique enough. All you really need is a name, which is good enough for airlines for both revenue protection and security.

For it to be unique it needs a name and photograph, and a number to make sure it is non-transferable.

Why? Because if I need to prove my identity, it is (alongside a passport) the gold standard.

Until it isn't accepted - not regarded as suitable for the job I've just started because it isn't proof of address as so many people fail to update it when they move. Maybe about bronze standard then.

 

[dtaylor84]

Then either they wouldn't use train tickets that needed a photocard or they wouldn't have any ticket so need dealing with on the spot.

No, they'd just use a separate railway p

 

[mmh]

For it to be unique it needs a name and photograph, and a number to make sure it is non-transferable.

Airlines are perfectly happy to carry people without photograph ID. The only point of railway photocards is to make it a little harder to share tickets, not to prove who someone is. They don't care who you are, and neither should they.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Until it isn't accepted - not regarded as suitable for the job I've just started because it isn't proof of address as so many people fail to update it when they move. Maybe about bronze standard then.

What job is that? The DBS accept it, as do the Police for their own clearing system (it is, after all, a criminal offence not to keep it up to date). This being the case, I'd suggest that's an overzealous employer being an idiot, which would make me question what else they're going to have stupid rules about too.

It is the best official proof of address available in the UK. What *did* they accept?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Airlines are perfectly happy to carry people without photograph ID. The only point of railway photocards is to make it a little harder to share tickets, not to prove who someone is. They don't care who you are, and neither should they.

And in any case, what does a number have to do with it being non-transferrable?

Photograph and name are quite adequate. Anything else is by the by. People just aren't going to go through the faff of finding someone of the same name to transfer a season ticket to when the things are refundable anyway; it's about stopping casual re-use and temporary transfer to family and friends.

 

[andrewkeith5]

For it to be unique it needs a name and photograph, and a number to make sure it is non-transferable.


Until it isn't accepted - not regarded as suitable for the job I've just started because it isn't proof of address as so many people fail to update it when they move. Maybe about bronze standard then.

What job is that? The DBS accept it, as do the Police for their own clearing system (it is, after all, a criminal offence not to keep it up to date). This being the case, I'd suggest that's an overzealous employer being an idiot, which would make me question what else they're going to have stupid rules about too.

It is the best official proof of address available in the UK. What *did* they accept?

Definitely a foolish employer.

Clearly they’ve never realised that it’s illegal not to change the address on your driving licence if you move house, with a potential £1,000 fine.

As has been mentioned by others, a Photocard driving licence is pretty much the go-to method of proving age, identity and address nowadays...

If I wanted to verify someone’s address, I’d far rather use a state-issued document with a legal requirement for accuracy than the only alternative I can think of - an incredibly easily forged bank statement!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I wanted to verify someone’s address, I’d far rather use a state-issued document with a legal requirement for accuracy than the only alternative I can think of - an incredibly easily forged bank statement!

Not least because there is no legal requirement to keep the bank up to date with your address in any form, it's quite legal to have bank statements going to any address you feel like, and it's not unusual for people who have to move about a lot to have them sent e.g. to parents. Banks really don't care about this.

But yes, because they are just laser printed on A4 it's hardly difficult to fake one with 5 minutes and a copy of Word.

 

[Ih8earlies]

1) Why on earth would anyone withdraw a photocard? It's a worthless piece of paper and plastic. All that is needed is Photo ID to match the name on the ticket - if it doesn't match the name and the face, withdraw the ticket.

A face can slowly change over the years as people age. Hair styles change. Medical conditions etc. But even in a perfect world where everyone updates their photocard fraud can still occur.

I have withdrawn photocards a few times (along with the season tickets) over the years. Most of the time because the person using the ticket was clearly not the person on the photocard. In at least one of those incidents the matter progressed to court level. The case was an open and shut case and decided very quickly helped along by physical evidence of the ticket. The photocard. And the report of the BTP officer who verified the actual personal details of the person trying to use the ticket on the day.

The legal process loves evidence. Who would have thought the justice system would work well with physical evidence. Amazing.

 

[Haywain]

The only point of railway photocards is to make it a little harder to share tickets, not to prove who someone is. They don't care who you are, and neither should they.

This is absolutely the point. The photocard is not proof of who you are, as you can use any name you like (no proof of name is required to obtain a photocard), but it is proof that you are the user of the season ticket. Therefore the name is essentially a polite addition to the requirement of a photo (hence photocard?) and the number matches the photo with the season ticket.

Definitely a foolish employer.

I can't agree with that. After all, they have chosen to employ me!

it’s illegal not to change the address on your driving licence if you move house, with a potential £1,000 fine.

The same applies to buying a train ticket (roughly speaking) but plenty of people manage to fail on that as well, and it's easier to detect.