Why The Obsession With Electric cars?

[Harpers Tate]

When I go to England I have to drive 1,500 km one way. That would take a long time in an electric car having to charge up all the time.

With a realistic range of, say, 450km (easily available now - and only likely to go up) you have 4+ hours driving then a 30-45 minute R&R break when you eat and/or drink and/or (etc) whilst the vehicle is charging. Most would be likely to need such stops at such intervals (give or take) and the altered thinking is that you recharge in parallel with some other such activity - not separately. So doing means it takes virtually no (extra) time to do.

The basic version of the Hyundai Kona EV has a range of 200 miles (321km). Let's say 250km before range anxiety sets in. A 20-minute fast charge would mean six charges, or two hours in stops.

The 64kWh edition supposedly has a real-world range of about 450km - as do most Teslas.

....there is particulate pollution from tyres and brakes.

Tyres - yes, although they tend to be fitted with low resistance (which means low wear) tyres for fuel efficiency. Brakes - yes but maybe 10% of what a simple ICE produces because most of the retardation is done by regeneration, not friction braking.

How do you propose to produce hydrogen, and in what way would that be "cleaner" than charging batteries?

The H2 fuel point near here produces Hydrogen onsite using a windmill; there is no external power input for the H2 production. The H2 is stored under pressure onsite. (I can't speak for the electronics in the "pump").

 

[Geezertronic]

I live in the south of Germany in the Black Forest but I originate from Seaham in County Durham. I drive home 2 or three times a year.

Sorry I misunderstood what you meant. That is a mean journey, particularly at the England end

 

[ComUtoR]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai

The Toyota Mirai (from mirai (未来), Japanese for "future") is a mid-size hydrogen fuel cell car manufactured by Toyota, one of the first such sedan-like vehicles to be sold commercially

Hyundai and Honda also have a Hydrogen Car

 

[Groningen]

In the Netherlands there is only interest in electric cars if (with a subsidy) people have to pay less, than with a petrol car.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd say the jury is still out on battery versus hydrogen cars. Battery is probably more efficient overall and works for vehicles that don't travel long distances, but needs more range or an easily swappable battery pack to be a widespread replacement for the IC engine. At present fuel cells don't seem to be making much headway. Both need costs to come down.

 

[martian boy]

With a realistic range of, say, 450km (easily available now - and only likely to go up) you have 4+ hours driving then a 30-45 minute R&R break when you eat and/or drink and/or (etc) whilst the vehicle is charging. Most would be likely to need such stops at such intervals (give or take) and the altered thinking is that you recharge in parallel with some other such activity - not separately. So doing means it takes virtually no (extra) time to do.

Ok has far has it goes. Problem being, when you arrive, there is a long queue of electric cars waiting to be charged. You suddenly find your R&R break turns into 3-4 hours.

Most of the time when I fill up my car with fuel, it takes no more than 5-10 minutes depending on how many other vehicle and pumps there are.

I've asked a lot of electric car supporters about this, but few, if any, can give me a proper answer.

 

[birchesgreen]

Fast charging is coming. Anyway if necessary behaviours may need some adjustment, humans are good at that, and have lots of ingenuity.

 

[EM2]

Ok has far has it goes. Problem being, when you arrive, there is a long queue of electric cars waiting to be charged. You suddenly find your R&R break turns into 3-4 hours.

I have never seen a queue at a charging point, whether at a motorway service area, a shopping centre car park or on the street.

 

[Dent]

The H2 fuel point near here produces Hydrogen onsite using a windmill; there is no external power input for the H2 production. The H2 is stored under pressure onsite. (I can't speak for the electronics in the "pump").

What advantage does this have over using the same windmill to charge electric car batteries?

I notice the original poster still hasn't given any justification for the claim that hydrogen technology is in any way "cleaner" than batteries.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I notice the original poster still hasn't given any justification for the claim that hydrogen technology is in any way "cleaner" than batteries.

Hydrogen can be made locally and doesn't need digging out of the ground or shipped all over the planet.

 

[Dent]

Hydrogen can be made locally and doesn't need digging out of the ground or shipped all over the planet.

If you are using electricity to make hydrogen locally then how is that any "cleaner" than using the same electricity to charge a battery? If you make hydrogen from fossil fuels then those fuels do need to be dug up and transported.

 

[ComUtoR]

I have never seen a queue at a charging point, whether at a motorway service area, a shopping centre car park or on the street.

How many queues do you see at the pumps ? People queue because there is a chance that they will be next and that there is a minimal wait. If you had an electric car and saw an occupied charge point would you wait ? I doubt it and that's because you know the wait would be prohibitive.

You also see queues at the pumps because there are so many cars which require filling up. With a limited number of electric cars there is little chance of huge queues.

It's also a case of attitudes. Electric car owners know that range and charging is an issue so they plan accordingly. With petrol/diesel I don't have to plan. I rock up to the nearest petrol station and fill up.

 

[EM2]

^^^
All of these are good points. Which surely belies martian boy's comment about long queues and 3-4 hour rest breaks?

Fwiw, the local supermarket has the best petrol price locally. And because of that, it has huge queues. I'd rather drive another mile, and not have to queue even if it costs me tuppence a litre more.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is a brilliant interview with Robert Llewellyn on BBC Radio about this subject, which I commend to anyone interested in the subject. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000mjy

The simple truth is that electric vehicles are much more efficient.

A few facts:

A typical modern Diesel engine operates at between 30-35% thermal efficiency, ie 30-35% of the energy input (the fuel) is converted to energy output. However transmission losses and power taken for other things in the car mean that only 20% of the energy in the fuel results in power at the wheel. It’s worse for petrol cars.

An electric car will convert approx 60% of electrical power input into power at the wheel on the same basis (allowing for battery losses, transmission losses, and other power uses). By this measure alone, electric cars are 3 x more efficient. Some info is available here: https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/10/electric-car-myth-buster-efficiency/

Now, it is often said that because the electricity has to be generated in power stations, it simply exports the emissions elsewhere.

The U.K. electrical power generation mix is about 45% emissions free (if you assume that nuclear is emissions free, and that the French imports are mostly nuclear) - right now it’s around 50%, but then it’s a bit windy tonight, although the sun is in bed so no solar.

Most of the rest is generated by Combined Cycle Gas Turbine power stations, which have an average thermal efficiency of 50-55%. They also have much lower emissions in terms of NOx and particulates. (which are a particular concern from Diesel engines). Of course there are then transmission losses from power station to consumer socket, National Grid estimates these are 7.7%. Let’s call it 10% to be on the safe side.

Taken together, and assuming my maths is right, a standard unit of power delivered to the wheels of a diesel car produces 2.5 to 3 times more emissions than the standard unit of power delivered to the wheels of an electric car. On top of that, the emissions from a diesel are generally more harmful than those from a CCGT power station, and also much more likely to be in a place where people live and work.

Therefore, we can safely say that using electric vehicles is much better in terms of emissions.

There is then the issue of embedded carbon (and other emissions) in the vehicle itself. I won’t go into the detail here, other than to say that the key point is the differnece in embedded carbon between an electric vehicle and a fossil fuelled vehicle. I understand it’s not that much of a difference, but happy to be proved wrong.

Finally there is economics. I have a few friends with EVs, and they will typically spend about 3p a mile on ‘fuel’ on a typical duty cycle. That compares to me spending around 15p/mile on a relatively efficient Golf Diesel, and nearly twice that on a rather less efficient estate car. At 10k miles a year, that’s quite a difference, and there is much less to service / go wrong on an EV, which makes maintenance cheaper too. For people who do a lot of urban driving, it is clearly the best option. Hence why there are now a noticeable number of electric black cabs in London (over 500, and rising daily).

If my next car isn’t electric, the one after will be.

 

[tony_mac]

Taken together, and assuming my maths is right

I don't think it is.

 

[ComUtoR]

Awesome Sauce™

All well and true but still can't change people. I almost bought a Tesla but instead went with my heart and got a diesel like a little naughty boy This should last me at least 5yrs and hopefully more. I plan to drive it till it dies a horrible death. If i have to replace it beforehand I will still opt for something that looks cool and has lots of buttons and toys. It will NOT be fully electric. Hybrid, maybe. and I must admit I do like the look of the Polestar.

Electric uptake has more issues to overcome. I think they are still is the early adoption phase and until charging points are much more prevalent, faster, and plug and play for any vehicle (standardization issues) I will still hold out till the last.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't think it is.

In what way? I checked twice, and the on line sources seem to back me up. In simple terms, an electric car is 3 times more efficient in getting energy from battery to wheel than a diesel car getting energy from tank to wheel.

And a diesel car burns all its source energy to create emissions, whereas the electricity in the battery equivalent even allowing for transmission losses, only requires a little more than half to be fossil fuel burn, and that fossil fuel (gas) is burnt at nearly twice the efficiency of a Diesel engine. Ie all told roughly 3 times less emissions to get the equivalent energy to the battery.

3 x 3 = 9.

Edit: this is wrong! Thanks @tony_mac

 

[tony_mac]

In what way? ...
an electric car is 3 times more efficient in getting energy from battery to wheel than a diesel
...
and that fossil fuel (gas) is burnt at nearly twice the efficiency of a Diesel engine.

You have included the inefficiency of the diesel engine twice.

 

[Harpers Tate]

What advantage does this have over using the same windmill to charge electric car batteries?

In no way at all. It was a simple factual response to the first aprt of the quoted post.

.....Problem being, when you arrive, there is a long queue of electric cars waiting to be charged. .....

Has never happened to me yet. It may well increase in probability; that will all depend on the extent to which the infrastructure keeps pace with the demand. As an aside, this is mostly in Yorkshire; it was recently cited on the TV news that Yorkshire has the lowest per-capita number of charging stations in the country.....

At one local point (popular because it's free to use) I have on occasion had to wait for one car (never more) to complete and leave, or to abandon the attempt, but in total that amounts to way, way less than half of the occasions I have (tried to) used it. And that location has just one single rapid charger unit. Again, part of the thinking one adopts is to build contingency into one's planning; you don't intentionally drive until the thing is dry of electrons; you arrange to stop before you absolutely need to, but where there is greater provision - or you intend to stop where there is another location nearby as contingency ...etc.

 

[radamfi]

The recent Lexus adverts seem to be hinting at a perceived hostility to fully electric cars by branding their new cars "self-charging hybrid". How is that any different to a bog standard hybrid like a Prius?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The recent Lexus adverts seem to be hinting at a perceived hostility to fully electric cars by branding their new cars "self-charging hybrid". How is that any different to a bog standard hybrid like a Prius?

From looking at the website it doesn't look like it is any different.

FWIW, I see a gap in the market at present for a car that charges up on a long journey by running the petrol engine faster than necessary (and avoiding this being an issue by way of electric transmission), then runs on battery in the city. In the short term this setup would achieve the main thing electric cars do (zero pollution at the point of use where it matters) while still maintaining all the flexibility of a petrol car.

I wonder what prevents these being offered? Most hybrids do not use electric transmission - is it too costly?

 

[Domh245]

The recent Lexus adverts seem to be hinting at a perceived hostility to fully electric cars by branding their new cars "self-charging hybrid". How is that any different to a bog standard hybrid like a Prius?

Doesn't seem any different to me, and given that Lexus is the premium division of Toyota, I dare say that there is in fact a lot in common with a Prius!

From looking at the website it doesn't look like it is any different.

FWIW, I see a gap in the market at present for a car that charges up on a long journey by running the petrol engine faster than necessary (and avoiding this being an issue by way of electric transmission), then runs on battery in the city. In the short term this setup would achieve the main thing electric cars do (zero pollution at the point of use where it matters) while still maintaining all the flexibility of a petrol car.

I wonder what prevents these being offered? Most hybrids do not use electric transmission - is it too costly?

There are examples of "range extender electric vehicles", for example the i3 (until recently at least) and the Chevrolet volt, and I think that Mazda are looking to do a similar thing using a rotary engine. As for why more aren't offered, I think it's mainly because trying to package an ICE, generator, electric drive and battery into a vehicle is going to be "difficult*" and leave you with a very heavy vehicle.

*At least, in terms of packaging it whilst retaining a lot of interior space

 

[Bald Rick]

You have included the inefficiency of the diesel engine twice.

You’re right, of course. Post edited...

Having checked the figures again without having had a bottle of wine first, an electric car produces approx 30-40% of the CO2 emissions of a diesel car with the current energy mix. Rather less than that of the more nasty NOx and particulates, although that is harder to calculate (and depends how old your diesel car is).

One final thing, I’m not clear whether the quoted efficiency rates for electric propulsion include for the energy recovered from braking. The manufacturers range figures do, but I haven’t used those. It is possible that the scales tip more towards favouring electric than these revised calls above.

 

[Bald Rick]

The recent Lexus adverts seem to be hinting at a perceived hostility to fully electric cars by branding their new cars "self-charging hybrid". How is that any different to a bog standard hybrid like a Prius?

Isn’t it that the early Lexus and Prius models didn’t have a plug in option? I read it that a self charging hybrid only gets electric power from the engine and braking, whereas a plug-in hybrid does that plus gets electricity from when you plug it in.

 

[ComUtoR]

Correct. Hybrids are like range extenders for petrol engines. They have small batteries that kick in at low speeds and used for accelerating. They are not used for long distances and are more urban city cars. The battery is low capacity and low use. PHEV is the next step up with a bigger battery and more capability from the electric side. Not enough energy is recovered to charge a bigger battery.

 

[Basher]

Fuel cells will be the answer. In 2004 I remember listing to the technical director of Ford Germany who was predicting Ford would be in a position to produce a fuel cell driven car in five years. Well we have not seen it yet, so why? I think governments are extremely frightened of this solution as how are they going to replace the revenue from fuel duty and vat. If i'm correct the fuel cell was first thought about by the great northern engineer Armstrong and the 1960s moon shots had a fuel cell on-board. I understand that Toyota cars who are big in Japanese housing are developing the fuel cell to supply energy to a house unit. The last I heard was it was possible to get 40 BHP from a cell, so 2 cells could power a small car. just imagine your house heated with a fuel cell running costs almost zero, independent of the national grid cooking free etc. We just do not know what the oil companies and the like get up to in the suppression of technology.
You could call me cynical about the world, but we just have to wait and see.

 

[Billy A]

Why would fuel cells be the answer? They rely on hydrogen which doesn't just flow from the ground. It has to be produced by electrolysing water (which is a pointless exercise as you'd be better off using the electricity directly with a battery), by reforming hydrocarbons (which leaves you with CO2 emissions) or as a by product of a chemical process. Faster fuelling apart there's really very little reason why you'd choose to go down the fuel cell route.
Mind you, one can. Toyota and Hyundai sell fuel cell vehicles which have decent range and performance albeit at a very high cost and with an almost complete lack of fuelling infrastructure.

 

[Bald Rick]

It will be batteries, not fuel cells, at least for cars and light vans.

The tax issue is irrelevant, as the ‘problem’ arises whichever alternative to diesel / petrol takes over. Personally I expect full VAT on electricity when electric cars have got past about 30-50% of new vehicle market share, and then full road us charging. Today’s announcement in the budget that VED is being hypothecated to fund road building and maintenance is an interesting step in that regard. (That was, after all, the original intention when Lloyd George brought it in 109 years ago).

 

[Dent]

just imagine your house heated with a fuel cell running costs almost zero, independent of the national grid....

How do you plan to acquire the fuel for this fuel cell at "almost zero" cost and independent of the national grid?

 

[JamesT]

From looking at the website it doesn't look like it is any different.

FWIW, I see a gap in the market at present for a car that charges up on a long journey by running the petrol engine faster than necessary (and avoiding this being an issue by way of electric transmission), then runs on battery in the city. In the short term this setup would achieve the main thing electric cars do (zero pollution at the point of use where it matters) while still maintaining all the flexibility of a petrol car.

I wonder what prevents these being offered? Most hybrids do not use electric transmission - is it too costly?

I'm thinking efficiency might be part of it. Your ICE is putting out mechanical energy which can be directly used to turn the wheels, whereas you're going to suffer some losses converting to electricity and back. This may be counterbalanced by the electric motor being more efficient and the ICE being able to run closer to peak efficiency, but it seems telling that most manufacturers haven't gone for all electric transmission.