Chiltern refusing to pay delay compensation for both tickets on split ticket journey UPDATE:resolved

[ForTheLoveOf]

Last month I was delayed by over an hour on a journey I made. I was delayed by a Chiltern service, and the delay was within the control of the rail industry.

I had started my journey within the London Zones and took a National Rail service to one London terminal, and then took the Underground to Marylebone, where I boarded the Chiltern service. I used Oyster for the first part of my journey until Marylebone, and had a regular paper ticket from Marylebone to my destination.

Chiltern paid delay compensation calculated on the cost of the paper ticket from Marylebone without hesitation. However they are refusing to pay the remaining compensation for the cost of the Oyster fare.

After originally claiming that the Oyster terms dictate that the journey ends wherever you tap out (despite the fact that an Out of Station Interchange had to be done during my journey!), they have now admitted that my journey was not from Marylebone, but from my origin within the London Zones.

However, they are still refusing to pay compensation on the cost of the Oyster fare, as they claim their Passenger's Charter says they will only pay compensation on the cost of the ticket covering the Chiltern part of any journey.

I cannot find any such 'exemption' in the Charter: the charter simply does not cover what happens in the case of using multiple tickets for a journey; it is silent on the matter and so one must assume that compensation is calculated in exactly the same way as it is for one-ticket journeys.

Furthermore, the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) do not have any such exemption, and similarly, it does not address the possibility of claiming compensation for multiple-ticket journeys (which we know we have the right to make, thanks to Condition 14.1). Even if such an exemption were in the Charter, I do not see that it would have any ability to override the NRCoT.

Quite clearly this is not about the actual amount at stake, but it is about the principle. I am sure Chiltern would take objection to me refusing to pay part of an outstanding fare just because I felt like not paying all of it, and they would quite possibly threaten, or even proceed with, prosecution. I feel the same rules and penalties should apply to both parties; of course that is an unrealistic attitude in the case of train companies!

Has anyone else had any similar issues with Chiltern specifically (I know there are other train companies where this issue is common, but I haven't read much about Chiltern causing any delay compensation problems)? It is very disappointing that the case handler said they spoke to their manager and were told that they were applying the delay compensation rules properly.

If anyone has any contacts within Chiltern who might be able to take a look at this I'd be grateful for anything they could do.

 

[island]

Can’t see you getting anywhere with this, the NRCoT only applies to NR services, not LU.

 

[furlong]

had a regular paper ticket from Marylebone to my destination.

Is there any other relevant or unusual information you haven't told us? (Why are you hiding the stations concerned?) Were you in possession of that paper ticket before leaving your original station? Did you supply copies of your Oyster travel record with your claim together with an itinerary from (for example NRE) showing the time you would be expected to arrive at your final destination if you left your origin at the time you did allowing the correct amount of connection time?

 

[Hadders]

I don't see why you cannot use Oyster as part of the combination although can you demonstrate that you allowed sufficient interchange time where you changed trains.

I expect you'll be writing a letter before action and taking it to court if necessary.

I look forward to hearing the result

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Is there any other relevant or unusual information you haven't told us? (Why are you hiding the stations concerned?) Were you in possession of that paper ticket before leaving your original station? Did you supply copies of your Oyster travel record with your claim together with an itinerary from (for example NRE) showing the time you would be expected to arrive at your final destination if you left your origin at the time you did allowing the correct amount of connection time?

I'm not stating the exact stations for the purposes of anonymity as well as because it doesn't actually affect the principle at stake: there was no issue around minimum connection times etc.

I had obtained my paper ticket well in advance of travel.

I did supply copies of my Oyster history and they seemed to have no issue with this or with my itinerary. The only issue they have with my claim is to do with whether they will pay compensation on tickets not actually used to travel on Chiltern, but which were used part of the journey as a whole.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Can’t see you getting anywhere with this, the NRCoT only applies to NR services, not LU.

But LU was a mere cross-London transfer. If I had started my journey on LU I would agree that, but I started it on NR, made a cross-London transfer and then continued on Chiltern.

The fare for my Oyster journey was priced in National Rail mode and so it is, in my eyes, no different to having a paper [origin] to London Zone U1* single (other than the price of course). The Oyster fare is even shown alongside other National Rail fares on www.brfares.com. And the NRCoT state that Oyster is a form of "Ticket" for the purposes of the NRCoT.

Like I have said above, this isn't even what they are disputing - they are suggesting that, if in the reverse order I had, say, had a ticket for travel from Manchester to Birmingham on CrossCountry and then another ticket for travel from Birmingham to London on Chiltern, they would only be paying compensation on the Birmingham to London leg if they had delayed me on such a journey. I think Oyster is somewhat of a red herring here really.

 

[cactustwirly]

But are Oyster fares covered by the NRCoT?
It would help if you gave us where you travelled to & from with your Oyster.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

But are Oyster fares covered by the NRCoT?

The Oyster terms for NR travel say that the NRCoT applies too.

 

[cactustwirly]

The Oyster terms for NR travel say that the NRCoT applies too.

But surely if it was a cross London transfer on LU, the NRCoT wouldn't apply?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

But surely if it was a cross London transfer on LU, the NRCoT wouldn't apply?

Part of the journey was a cross London transfer.

Are you suggesting that if you have a ticket from say Brighton to Birmingham then the portion used in the Underground is not subject to the NRCoT?

Like I have previously said, this is not really the issue in contention. Chiltern are refusing on a different basis than claiming that there were two separate journeys.

 

[cactustwirly]

Part of the journey was a cross London transfer.

Are you suggesting that if you have a ticket from say Brighton to Birmingham then the portion used in the Underground is not subject to the NRCoT?

Like I have previously said, this is not really the issue in contention. Chiltern are refusing on a different basis than claiming that there were two separate journeys.

But if you used Oyster to travel from Victoria to Euston for example, with LU, then the NRCoT may not apply to that part of the journey.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

But if you used Oyster to travel from Victoria to Euston for example, with LU, then the NRCoT may not apply to that part of the journey.

Does that have any effect on the right to compensation, provided the delay is not caused on the Underground?

 

[cactustwirly]

Does that have any effect on the right to compensation, provided the delay is not caused on the Underground?

You wouldn't be entitled to compensation on the Oyster fare...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You wouldn't be entitled to compensation on the Oyster fare...

That's not their argument though. Their argument is that simply the fact that I used split tickets makes me ineligible for compensation on any ticket other than that used on their services. Which is clearly rubbish.

And if you say there is no entitlement to compensation on an Oyster fare if the journey includes the Underground, are you saying that you think a (say) Gatwick Airport to London Zone U1* paper ticket would not be eligible for compensation when combined with another ticket from a London Terminal?

 

[cactustwirly]

That's not their argument though. Their argument is that simply the fact that I used split tickets makes me ineligible for compensation on any ticket other than that used on their services. Which is clearly rubbish.

And if you say there is no entitlement to compensation on an Oyster fare if the journey includes the Underground, are you saying that you think a (say) Gatwick Airport to London Zone U1* paper ticket would not be eligible for compensation when combined with another ticket from a London Terminal?

But that includes travel on a NR service, using a NR paper ticket, which is completely different to an Oyster journey which only uses LU services.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

But that includes travel on a NR service, using a NR paper ticket, which is completely different to an Oyster journey which only uses LU services.

Ok, let's get back to my case then. I started on an NR service and I then took an LU service. But that is not in dispute; what is in dispute is whether I am eligible for compensation for that portion of my journey.

 

[cactustwirly]

Ok, let's get back to my case then. I started on an NR service and I then took an LU service. But that is not in dispute; what is in dispute is whether I am eligible for compensation for that portion of my journey.

Where did you get the NR service from, and what ticket did you use?

 

[Paul Kelly]

I think what this comes down to is the new definition of "Ticket" in the NRCoT:

“Ticket” means any physical or electronic document or record which entitles a
passenger to make a journey on the National Rail Network between the stations or
within the zones indicated by one or more of the operators listed in Appendix A. An
electronic document or record may consist of (but not be limited to):
(i) a smartcard (including an Oyster or ITSO card);
(ii) a payment card or identity card;
(iii) a mobile telephone or tablet device;
(iv) other mobile electronic device; or
(v) a database, in conjunction with an authorised Contactless Bank Card bearing the
symbol described in the notices and publications of the Train Company as being
valid for travel on their services. Electronic documents or records may not display
the same information as printed Tickets but the conditions for use of these will
explain where this information can be found;

If I remember correctly this is a relatively recent addition and I'm not sure it's been subjected to much legal scrutiny yet. In official notices in London you always used to see meticulous references made to being in possession of "a valid ticket or a validated Oyster card" in many places, suggesting that being in possession of a validated Oyster card was not equivalent to holding a ticket, but this has been changed in the last couple of years and it makes an interesting test case.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Where did you get the NR service from, and what ticket did you use?

A station within the London Zones. I'd prefer not to identify where it was for now; it's immaterial to the argument. I took one NR service from there to the London Terminal and then the Underground from the London Terminal to Marylebone. I used an Oyster card as far as Marylebone, having tapped in at the origin station within the London Zones, and having done an OSI at the London Terminal where I changed from NR to LU.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If I remember correctly this is a relatively recent addition and I'm not sure it's been subjected to much legal scrutiny yet

Just how much of the NRCoT has ever gone before a County Court, let alone a Court whose ruling would be binding? I'm willing to bet that, at least in the case of the NRCoT, the answer could be counted on one hand at best.

I agree that the status of Oyster has changed significantly from just a few years ago. If there is to be a test case, this is surely as good as any - as it is me as the passenger who is deciding who goes before Court, not the other way around!

 

[cactustwirly]

A station within the London Zones. I'd prefer not to identify where it was for now; it's immaterial to the argument. I took one NR service from there to the London Terminal and then the Underground from the London Terminal to Marylebone. I used an Oyster card as far as Marylebone, having tapped in at the origin station within the London Zones, and having done an OSI at the London Terminal where I changed from NR to LU.

Tbh it probably isn't worth the hassle, as you'd only get a few quid anyway

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Tbh it probably isn't worth the hassle, as you'd only get a few quid anyway

As stated above:

Quite clearly this is not about the actual amount at stake, but it is about the principle.

I'm not in it for the compo, I'm in it to hopefully get case handlers (and their managers!) retrained on the correct compensation to pay.

 

[najaB]

I'm not convinced that anything more is due. If your journey was entirely covered by NR tickets then it would be a through journey, but as it stands you have three separate journeys - two on NR and one on Oyster - which happen to meet in the middle.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I'm not convinced that anything more is due. If your journey was entirely covered by NR tickets then it would be a through journey, but as it stands you have three separate journeys - two on NR and one on Oyster - which happen to meet in the middle.

So you are saying that you think the medium of the ticket makes a difference? - e.g. that if I had a [origin] to London Zone U1* ticket I would be entitled to compensation?

The journey on NR from the London Zones station to the London Terminal was covered by the same ticket as the Underground journey in my view - an Oyster. And the Oyster card functioned as an equivalent of a [origin] to London Zone U1* ticket for all intents and purposes, in my view.

 

[najaB]

So you are saying that you think the medium of the ticket makes a difference? - e.g. that if I had a [origin] to London Zone U1* ticket I would be entitled to compensation?

Not the medium, the type of ticket. Oyster is a zonal system covering buses, trams, ferries, etc. in addition to trains whereas a NR ticket covers Underground journeys only where necessary to connect between stations.

It's no different to if you had chosen to Boris Bike - you wouldn't expect to get the money back for that.

 

[swt_passenger]

Didn’t the staff knowledge base once have a section that expressly ruled out compensation if Oyster PAYG was used as a precursor to a through journey? I don’t think the fact that there were two Oyster legs, NR &LU, joined with an OSI made a material difference back then...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Didn’t the staff knowledge base once have a section that expressly ruled out compensation if Oyster PAYG was used as a precursor to a through journey? I don’t think the fact that there were two Oyster legs, NR &LU, joined with an OSI made a material difference back then...

Was that section removed due to it being out of date, or was it merely removed as a cleanup? In any case, whilst it interesting to hear the rail industry's policy on the matter, their policy is hardly determinitive of the actual legal position.

 

[swt_passenger]

Was that section removed due to it being out of date, or was it merely removed as a cleanup? In any case, whilst it interesting to hear the rail industry's policy on the matter, their policy is hardly determinitive of the actual legal position.

I don’t know, hence it being a question. I don’t have access to the knowledge base, just remember it being discussed at one time.

 

[Hadders]

Not the medium, the type of ticket. Oyster is a zonal system covering buses, trams, ferries, etc. in addition to trains whereas a NR ticket covers Underground journeys only where necessary to connect between stations.

It's no different to if you had chosen to Boris Bike - you wouldn't expect to get the money back for that.

Like a Travelcard then? Would you expect delay repay to be paid if a Travelcard was one of the tickets used.

Oyster PAYG is referenced in the Advance Fares FAQs in that if you are delayed while on the Underground you may take a later train at no additional cost.

 

[MikeWh]

I'm not convinced that anything more is due. If your journey was entirely covered by NR tickets then it would be a through journey, but as it stands you have three separate journeys - two on NR and one on Oyster - which happen to meet in the middle.

No!

He had two journeys, one covered by his paper ticket on Chiltern and one from his start NR station to Marylebone LU. The price is completely different if the two legs of the Oyster journey are treated separately.