Why The Obsession With Electric cars?

[AM9]

There are plenty of people who are carrying equipment etc for jobs throughout the day, such as Sky installers, gas repairers, and a host of other tradesmen, who aren't at a particular job long enough to charge the vehicle (if the customer had the facility and agreed that is). Also, what about travelling salesmen who are likewise making several stops per day. These people will be restricted as to how much work they can do in a day if they have to keep stopping to charge.

Some business models will need to change. The law will apply equally to every company so it won't be distorting the market.

 

[Clip]

There are plenty of people who are carrying equipment etc for jobs throughout the day, such as Sky installers, gas repairers, and a host of other tradesmen, who aren't at a particular job long enough to charge the vehicle (if the customer had the facility and agreed that is). Also, what about travelling salesmen who are likewise making several stops per day. These people will be restricted as to how much work they can do in a day if they have to keep stopping to charge.

Adapt to it then.

And travelling salesmen can stop on a motorway services to charge.

Its possible - you are just bringing in minority examples to suit your argument

 

[BananaRepublic]

There are plenty of people who are carrying equipment etc for jobs throughout the day, such as Sky installers, gas repairers, and a host of other tradesmen, who aren't at a particular job long enough to charge the vehicle (if the customer had the facility and agreed that is). ......
......These people will be restricted as to how much work they can do in a day if they have to keep stopping to charge.

Whether they are carrying equipment or not, many of those tradesmen would be able to carry out a full days work inc. travelling around, well within the range of the newer types of EV vehicle.

With the new generation of EV's being capable of real world ranges between 200 to 300 miles and with the motor manufacturing industry working towards electric vehicle ranges of around 400 miles or more, the Electric Vehicle landscape is set to change dramatically within the next 5 too 10 years.

There is growth in the number of different models of Hybrid vehicle coming to market too.
Following Hybrids, Plug-in Hybrid and various forms of Range Extender EV's, there are new models fitted with new "Mild Hybrid" power trains.

Some industry insiders are predicting that there won't be any new pure ICE passenger cars being sold by the mid to late 2020's.


z

 

[birchesgreen]

Be careful, EVs will not be any good for some extreme cases which only are applicable to 0.01% of the population AND THUS WILL BE RUBBISH

 

[edwin_m]

It surprises me that the various supermarket online delivery vans aren't EVs (at least they aren't around Nottingham). The mileage between trips back to base must be fairly low and it the "greenness" would be a competitive advantage. The only reason I can think of is that online ordering sprang up a few years before EVs so most supermarkets have a fairly modern fleet that they can't justify replacing yet. Have they perhaps appeared on these duties in the London area?

 

[Domh245]

I think the lack of any sort of electric van from an established brand (because they seem to be almost exclusively Mercedes sprinter derivatives) is going to be behind that, and that is probably down to the fact that BEVs with any sort of good battery capacity (which you'll need if you're running a refrigerated van) carries a weight penalty,

Compare the EQC and the GLC (both Mercedes), the EQC's curb weight is reported to be 2425kg, whilst the similarly dimensioned GLC is 1790kg, over half a ton difference. Push the vehicle weight too high and either you have to reduce the amount of cargo, or get your drivers to obtain a higher class of licence than just a 'regular' one, which is all that current delivery drivers need (I think)

 

[LOL The Irony]

It surprises me that the various supermarket online delivery vans aren't EVs (at least they aren't around Nottingham). The mileage between trips back to base must be fairly low and it the "greenness" would be a competitive advantage. The only reason I can think of is that online ordering sprang up a few years before EVs so most supermarkets have a fairly modern fleet that they can't justify replacing yet. Have they perhaps appeared on these duties in the London area?

The local milk delivery firm has 1 or 2 electric Nissan NV200's.

I think the lack of any sort of electric van from an established brand (because they seem to be almost exclusively Mercedes sprinter derivatives) is going to be behind that, and that is probably down to the fact that BEVs with any sort of good battery capacity (which you'll need if you're running a refrigerated van) carries a weight penalty,

Compare the EQC and the GLC (both Mercedes), the EQC's curb weight is reported to be 2425kg, whilst the similarly dimensioned GLC is 1790kg, over half a ton difference. Push the vehicle weight too high and either you have to reduce the amount of cargo, or get your drivers to obtain a higher class of licence than just a 'regular' one, which is all that current delivery drivers need (I think)

That's the problem. Buses and Trucks will have to become hydrogen as batteries are just too heavy.

 

[birchesgreen]

Why buses? China seems to have no problems

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018...on-sized-electric-bus-fleet-every-five-weeks/

Every five weeks, 9,500 brand new electric buses take to the roads in China.

That’s the equivalent of the entire London bus fleet, says a new report by Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

The world has around 3 million buses. Most run on diesel and compressed natural gas. The global fleet of electric buses now totals around 385,000 vehicles - and 99% of those are in China...

 

[EM2]

I think the lack of any sort of electric van from an established brand (because they seem to be almost exclusively Mercedes sprinter derivatives) is going to be behind that

https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/advice/2018/electric-van-guide/
All of these vans are already on sale in the UK, or will be in the next few months:
Renault Kangoo ZE 33
Nissan e-NV200 40kWh
Citroen Berlingo Electric
Peugeot Partner Electric
Renault Master ZE
LDV EV80
Mercedes eVito
Mercedes eSprinter
Volkswagen e-Crafter
Iveco Daily Electric

 

[Clip]

https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/advice/2018/electric-van-guide/
All of these vans are already on sale in the UK, or will be in the next few months:
Renault Kangoo ZE 33
Nissan e-NV200 40kWh
Citroen Berlingo Electric
Peugeot Partner Electric
Renault Master ZE
LDV EV80
Mercedes eVito
Mercedes eSprinter
Volkswagen e-Crafter
Iveco Daily Electric

Stop letting facts get in the way of things!!

 

[Domh245]

Of course you'll note that pretty much all of them are small vans, with the only large vans currently available being the LDV, Iveco, and Renault Master, and even then only the Renault seems to be available as a chassis cab - the sort of type that a supermarket would buy to fit a body to and then use...

 

[LOL The Irony]

the sort of type that a supermarket would buy to fit a body to and then use...

That's the only real use for electric vans at the moment. Short delivery trips where they can return to "base" afterwards & charge up. Sort of a glorified milk float.

 

[furnessvale]

That's the only real use for electric vans at the moment. Short delivery trips where they can return to "base" afterwards & charge up. Sort of a glorified milk float.

You mean a modern version of the Scammell Scarab that used to shuttle to and from a railhead?

Sooooo much better now they use a 44 tonner with a 13.6m (or even bigger) trailer to drop off ONE pallet at Marks and Sparks before fighting its way into the centre of the next town to drop off one more there!

 

[Clip]

That's the only real use for electric vans at the moment. Short delivery trips where they can return to "base" afterwards & charge up. Sort of a glorified milk float.

And they already have charging points at their fulfillment centres to keep the refrigeration going so the infrastructure would only need slight changes

 

[martian boy]

You mean a modern version of the Scammell Scarab that used to shuttle to and from a railhead?

Sooooo much better now they use a 44 tonner with a 13.6m (or even bigger) trailer to drop off ONE pallet at Marks and Sparks before fighting its way into the centre of the next town to drop off one more there!

And the Scammell Scarab was far more efficient? How many of those would you need to do the equivalent of a 44 tonner and its equivalent trailer? How many more drivers (more payments) would you need.

Secondly, what is the range of a 44 tonner with its load? I hope an electric lorry will have the same pulling power and range.

 

[furnessvale]

And the Scammell Scarab was far more efficient? How many of those would you need to do the equivalent of a 44 tonner and its equivalent trailer? How many more drivers (more payments) would you need.

Secondly, what is the range of a 44 tonner with its load? I hope an electric lorry will have the same pulling power and range.

You obviously didn't read my post correctly. A "modern" Scammell Scarab would be electric. It would shuttle to and from an interchange depot, hopefully rail. It would be suitable for the narrow streets currently trying to cope with a 44 tonner dropping ONE pallet before moving on to the next town to repeat the chaos it causes. This next town would have its own interchange depot, hopefully rail, with its own electric Scammell Scarab shuttling to the shops with smaller loads.

 

[Belperpete]

I still don't know how you would recharge an electric car at home if you do not have a driveway. Do you drape a extension lead across the pavement and create a trip hazard? What if you cannot always guarantee to be able to park outside your house - do you roll out your extension lead down the road and into the next street?

Most roads have an electricity supply close to the kerb at fairly regular intervals, with a light on the top of it. These could surely be adapted to include charging points.
Kerbside charging points are appearing in parts of London. Probably in other places too.

 

[DavidGrain]

It surprises me that the various supermarket online delivery vans aren't EVs (at least they aren't around Nottingham). The mileage between trips back to base must be fairly low and it the "greenness" would be a competitive advantage. The only reason I can think of is that online ordering sprang up a few years before EVs so most supermarkets have a fairly modern fleet that they can't justify replacing yet. Have they perhaps appeared on these duties in the London area?

Many years ago. So long ago that I can't remember when but at least 20 years ago. I saw a Harrods delivery van which was battery propelled. What also drew my attention to it was that it had an old HA registration, the significance of which was that I lived in Midland Red territory all of whose buses had Smethwick (HA) registrations. So this would have dated the van to some time around the late 1950s from my recollect of the bus registrations

 

[Belperpete]

I wonder if this forum had been around in the early 1900s there would be a thread "Why the obsession with petrol fueled horseless carriages?"

I imagine arguments similar to those being made about electric vehicles were made in the early days of the petrol vehicle. How will my local stables maintain it? Hay is readily available everywhere, whereas there are only a few petrol stations. The range is rubbish compared to my horse. Motor vehicles are so much more dangerous and unreliable than horses. And so on.....

As I remarked in another recent thread, London went from being almost completely horse-drawn to almost completely motor traffic in less than 10 years. A photo of Central London in 1909 shows just one motor vehicle in a sea of horse vehicles, a photo of the same spot just 10 years later shows just one horse-drawn vehicle in a sea of motors. In that 10 years all the infrastructure necessary for the motor vehicle had presumably also been built (petrol stations, garages, etc.).

I think that we are on the verge of the same kind of transformation away from the internal combustion engine. As fewer and fewer people buy less and less petrol, so petrol will become more and more expensive, and supplies harder to find. Garages already run on very tight margins, so as their sales drop they will either have to increase their prices or go out of business. The supermarkets will probably keep their petrol outlets going as an incentive for people to go there, but I suspect many of the other petrol stations will close. And as petrol becomes more expensive and harder to buy, so it will become less and less attractive, and people will move to other fuels. It will be a vicious circle.

 

[LOL The Irony]

You mean a modern version of the Scammell Scarab that used to shuttle to and from a railhead?

No because all electric vans currently on the market are glorified milk floats. Their range isn't good enough to do long distance deliveries.

 

[EM2]

No because all electric vans currently on the market are glorified milk floats. Their range isn't good enough to do long distance deliveries.

They don't need to. Use the big trucks to do the main bit of it, plying up and down the motorways, and leave the electric vans to do the 'last mile' into towns and villages.

 

[furnessvale]

They don't need to. Use the big trucks to do the main bit of it, plying up and down the motorways, and leave the electric vans to do the 'last mile' into towns and villages.

Even better, use the railways to do the main bit of it and leave electric vans to do the last mile.

 

[furnessvale]

No because all electric vans currently on the market are glorified milk floats. Their range isn't good enough to do long distance deliveries.

Scammell Scarabs didn't do long distance deliveries either.

 

[Darandio]

Interesting article on the BBC, seems tens of thousands of plug-in hybrids were bought to take advantage of the plug-in grant, but the cables have never been used to charge the vehicle!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46152853

Tens of thousands of plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) bought with generous government grants may be burning as much fuel as combustion-engine cars.

Data compiled for the BBC suggests that such vehicles in corporate fleets averaged just 40 miles per gallon (mpg), when they could have done 130.

Many drivers may never have unwrapped their charging cables, The Miles Consultancy said.

Subsidies for new PHEVs were recently scrapped, after seven years.

The plug-in grant was introduced in 2011, gifting buyers up to £4,500 off new cars.

The incentive helped the UK become the biggest market for PHEVs in Europe.

The majority of the tens of thousands of eligible vehicles sold were bought by company fleets, including more than 70% of the 37,000 plug-in hybrids sold so far in 2018.

But data from The Miles Consultancy, a Cheshire firm which advises 300 blue-chip companies on fuel management, reveals that many businesses simply used the grant to save on buying regular cars.

Mileage records from 1,500 models, including Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Volvo vehicles, showed an average real-world mpg of 39.27, against an average manufacturer advertised mpg of 129.68.

Figures for 2,432 hybrids - including non plug-in varieties - showed an average real-world mpg of 49.06, still vastly lower than the potential range.

"There are some examples where employees aren't even charging these vehicles up," said Paul Hollick, The Miles Consultancy's managing director.

"The charge cables are still in the boot, in a cellophane wrapper, while the company and the employee are going in and out of petrol stations, paying for all of this additional fuel.

This practice, he added, was "ridiculous"

The British Vehicle Rental and Leasing Association (BVRLA), which represents many fleets, said higher taxes on diesel cars incentivised companies to buy plug-ins, even if they had no intention of using their electric capability.

"We unfortunately have got a situation where a poorly designed tax regime is driving some poor behaviours," said Toby Poston, the BVRLA's communications director.

"We have got some situations where company drivers are choosing the vehicle based on their tax liability, rather than having the right vehicle for the right job."

Some companies, he explained, were buying PHEVs - which are best suited to local trips - for employees who did a lot of motorway driving.

When presented with The Miles Consultancy's findings, a Department for Transport spokesperson said the government believed plug-in hybrids "bring significant environmental benefits", but would "now focus its support on zero emission models like pure electric and hydrogen fuel cell cars".

Plug-in hybrid vehicles continue to receive some government support, through lower car tax rates, grants for charging infrastructure and, in some local authorities, free parking.

The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders reiterated its dismay at the scrapping of the plug-in car grant.

"We need policies that encourage consumers and businesses to invest in the cleanest cars, however they are powered," chief executive Mike Hawes said.

 

[Harpers Tate]

That isn't exactly accurate reporting. PHEVs are, by definition, also hybrids (i.e. use regeneration rather than friction to retard the vehicle) so all other things being equal there will be some efficiency advantage - just as with a "pure" hybrid. But, yes, it's a pity that the scheme has been taken advantage of in this way. Anyhow, as an EV driver, I'm more than happy that charge points aren't being hogged to a greater degree by PHEVs that don't really need to use them.......

 

[DavidGrain]

That isn't exactly accurate reporting. PHEVs are, by definition, also hybrids (i.e. use regeneration rather than friction to retard the vehicle) so all other things being equal there will be some efficiency advantage - just as with a "pure" hybrid. But, yes, it's a pity that the scheme has been taken advantage of in this way. Anyhow, as an EV driver, I'm more than happy that charge points aren't being hogged to a greater degree by PHEVs that don't really need to use them.......

I am interested in your definition of a hybrid as having regenerative braking. I assumed that Hybrid meant that the vehicle was driven by a combination of petrol (or diesel) and electricity but I have not been able to find a definition. I have recently purchased a hybrid vehicle which has both a petrol engine and an electric motor either of which or both of which drive the car depending on various decisions that the car's computers make. So far I am averaging 57mpg which I put down to the fact that I have recently made two long motorway journeys which account for about 2/3 of the mileage of the car so far but expect all of my mileage for the next few months to be city driving.

 

[ComUtoR]

I am interested in your definition of a hybrid as having regenerative braking. I assumed that Hybrid meant that the vehicle was driven by a combination of petrol (or diesel) and electricity but I have not been able to find a definition.

The difference is the battery sizes and ranges.

A normal 'hybrid' has combustion engine with the battery supporting it. Primarily it runs of the ICE and a small battery is used at lower speeds and for a short range.

A PHEV has an electric engine with the fuel supporting it. Primarily it runs off the Electric side as there is a bigger battery and bigger motor and you can get a decent range and power from it.

A full electric vehicle has a much bigger set of batteries and more powerful motor etc.

I think a PHEV is a happy medium. You get the benefits of an EV but the backup and security of a 'normal' car.

 

[edwin_m]

That isn't exactly accurate reporting. PHEVs are, by definition, also hybrids (i.e. use regeneration rather than friction to retard the vehicle) so all other things being equal there will be some efficiency advantage - just as with a "pure" hybrid.

However the study quoted the average actual consumption of the PHEVs as 40mpg, which doesn't sound any better than a modern IC-engine car.

 

[Busaholic]

Many years ago. So long ago that I can't remember when but at least 20 years ago. I saw a Harrods delivery van which was battery propelled. What also drew my attention to it was that it had an old HA registration, the significance of which was that I lived in Midland Red territory all of whose buses had Smethwick (HA) registrations. So this would have dated the van to some time around the late 1950s from my recollect of the bus registrations

Those Harrods delivery vans were part of my childhood: not that we had such deliveries, you understand, my mother was more jumble sale, but they buzzed round the bit of S.E. London I lived in, quite a few miles from Harrods in Knightsbridge. This would have been mid 1950s to early 1960s.

 

[Harpers Tate]

However the study quoted the average actual consumption of the PHEVs as 40mpg, which doesn't sound any better than a modern IC-engine car.

"All other things being equal"...... The vehicle most often referenced in the context of the misuse of plug-ins and grants etc., is the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, as it is one of the more "upmarket" examples, hence often favoured by fleet buyers etc. The comparison is best made between the PHEV and the straight petrol version of this car.

I am interested in your definition of a hybrid as having regenerative braking. I assumed that Hybrid meant that the vehicle was driven by a combination of petrol (or diesel) and electricity but I have not been able to find a definition.

Here it is:
1: Conventional: runs on fossil fuel, period. Brakes are just that - friction devices.
2: Hybrid: runs on fossil fuel. Brakes are a combination of friction (used where severe braking is needed and/or to hold the vehicle stationary) and regenerative. More controlled deceleration uses a motor/generator to charge up a relatively small onboard traction battery; on acceleration, the power in that battery is used via the same motor/generator set to either fully propel the vehicle - typically for only a few yards - or to assist the petrol engine; either way it reduces fuel consumption specifically in those circumstances. Most dramatic effect is in crawling town/city traffic, with a lot of braking and light acceleration; and the least effect is on motorway cruising etc.
3: Plug In Hybrid (PHEV): as Hybrid, but with a larger traction battery, a more powerful motor, and can be charged externally (i.e. by plugging it in). Such vehicles can typically go something like 30 miles on electricity alone, if fully charged.

Hybrids and PHEVs can be designed two ways. The most common uses the electric motor to assist a conventional (usually automatic) gearbox plus engine setup. There are some/few that are more like petrol- (or diesel-) electric where the engine generates power to propel via the electric motor.

4: Electric (EV): No fossil fuel, just a rechargeable battery and electric motor/generator. Efficiency assisted as with the last two by regenerative deceleration. The better ones can go something like 250 miles on a full charge. 100-130 is more typical in the cheaper options.
5: Hydrogen Fuel Cell: Electric, but with power derived from a Hydrogen Fuel Cell, which converts Hydrogen to water and produces electricity for propulsion. Hydrogen is carried onboard, compressed. Exhaust output is more or less pure water.