SWR Major Disruption 19/11

[nlogax]

I think trying to run buses between Surbiton/edge of London inwards on a Monday morning trying to move a couple of hundred thousand people is going to end in tears for everyone. It might be look good on paper, but would be a droplet in the ocean of the capacity required.

Would have been a mess. With Surbs closed I thought it'd be clever and drop my houseguest down at South Wimbledon tube just four or five miles away. It was obvious the roads were extra-FUBARed from the moment I joined the n/b A3.

 

[Antman]

Nothing will be done whilst May’s poodle ( Grayling) holds the transport brief in the Cabinet . He is just there as an intransigent “back stop” . Doing nothing to improve the situation on the Railways at all

But what else should we expect from a Trouser lining , penny pinching Tory Government!

What has that got to do with NR overrunning. Or NR's many, many failures since the blockade. How is it the politicians fault there isn't enough power in the third raiL? Or that Waterloo is actual,y worse than before the blockade because the new layout needs the eurostar platforms?

NR has delivered extremely badly, all over the place. But is rarely criticised by the unions, preferring to spun that it's a funding issue. The issue isn't funding, it's the insane costs to do anything (which is always talked away as the "quality needed").

Sorry, but NR is currently not fit for purpose and I am not real,y seeing how it's better than Railtrack. It's currently just a bit luckier.

 

[JN114]

You do feel that SWT would have attempted to run some form of service certainly south from Guildford rather than just throwing up their corporate arms.

What a ridiculous statement.

The control staff who make the decisions of what to run and not are the same staff TUPE’d over; and they don’t have to consult with anyone on their decision making. Why on earth the change of franchise has anything whatsoever to do with it is bewildering as a minimum.

 

[GodAtum]

What a ridiculous statement.

The control staff who make the decisions of what to run and not are the same staff TUPE’d over; and they don’t have to consult with anyone on their decision making. Why on earth the change of franchise has anything whatsoever to do with it is bewildering as a minimum.

They could have least put on some buses!

 

[infobleep]

They will have modelled the costs of Cancelling almost every train Versus attempting to run a a service with what they have to where they can. And I suspect that as NR is swallowing the bill here, it's better not to run the risk of trains and crew in odd random places when it gets fixed because that will cost more/ not be recoverable from NR, so better to trouser the compensation and not run a service .... (am I being unfair here ?)

By the way, at 0600 the 0612 to Weymouth (the train my partner was aiming for) was still showing as "at platform" on RTT. It probably still is ! So is that stored overnight at WAT?

I've read on here that costs don't come into it when trying to run a service. I do wonder what would happen. If they ran a shuttle service to Epsom and back, as they had been doing yesterday from Guildford. I'm aware though driver diagrams won't be created for that.

Theee are many trains cancelled but there are also some just in as delayed. I assume they just don't have the time to cancel them.

 

[kev1974]

That Abellio website refers to planned engineering work, not emergencies.
There will be very few buses or drivers available during a Monday peak.
Do you envisage SWR contingency plans that would cover every scenario, in every area ? - presumably with emergency bus services to many other locations ?
.

The first paragraph of the main text starts "Abellio Rail Replacement (ARR) provides a specialist service to the UK Railway industry when services are disrupted due to planned engineering work and are experts at providing vehicles at short notice for emergency incidents on the railway."

While some of the cover will be provided by having standby buses and drivers, I expect they provide a lot of it by having some of their day to day services signed up to a cheaper contract that allows them to borrow buses and drivers when they're needed to meet a crisis on the railway. So some places will drop from say 6 buses an hour to 4 buses an hour, freeing up 2 to go do the emergency stuff, and it will all be priced into the various contracts they offer different companies. This is how cover and backfill arrangements work in other industries.

 

[infobleep]

What “evidence” have you sifted through on this occasion as I’m pretty sure the reasons for the over run are not currently in the public domain.

I'm sure that they often they explain what the reason for the overrun is but today they haven't.

Even on the Southern / Gatwick Express and Southern disruption page on the National Rail Enquiries Web Site they just say over running of engineering works are various locations. No mention of the failed engineering train.

Yet I've seen previous disruption notices in the past state engineering trains have failed. So it's not as if they never give out the information.

 

[infobleep]

because it is unplanned and you cant magic spare buses and drivers out of the air in the time available.

I am pleseantly surprised when it does happen though and it does happen. Obviously not when so many lines are as badly disrupted as this though.

 

[causton]

This is the service they advertise:
https://www.abellio.co.uk/rail-replacement/

No idea on capacity, but I’m sure they’d tell you if you ask.

The other networks do manage to rustle up services same day; LNWR with services to and from Luton/Stanmore, one I can recently remember.

SWR should have contingency plans for overrunning works and provide some way to connect to other stations, I don’t expect them to run shuttle buses stopping at every point to Waterloo.

Can you please stop talking about this as if you have any experience in the matter, as it is clear you do not.

Have you ever been on the receiving end of emergency rail replacement services, from Abellio or from any other company?
Can you show me where these drivers and vehicles will come from at this short notice, to join the traffic on already busy roads?
Have you ever been on these replacement buses and known how many turn up vs the expected demand?
For example the entire WCML collapsed recently in an afternoon, no buses could be sourced within 250 miles so for the entire West Coast there were 3 taxis ordered, which took up to three hours to arrive. Can you explain what you would do with these three taxis to cover the whole of the SWML in similar circumstances?

(The way you say that Network Rail (LNWR) would be ordering replacement buses shows your lack of knowledge in the matter, it would be the train operators (such as LNR) that do this)

 

[infobleep]

The issue is delays replacing a set of points on the Fast Lines at Durnsford Road (between Wimbledon and Earlsfield) - various issues through yesterday and last night have caused the work to slip and slip. As I understand all lines handed back shortly before half 9 - 5 hours overrun but ahead of how bad it was looking at some points overnight reading the control log.

It sounds harsh, customer unfriendly, whatever you want to call it but with my sensible hat on SWR probably made the right call not trying to introduce a shuttle to a point or points short of the obstruction. It is notoriously difficult to source any road transport on a weekday during school run hours - and even if you could we’re talking about moving tens of thousands of people. Coaches carry what, 60 people each? And everyone wants to go to the same 3 or 4 stations in London. Analyse the maths of that.

The big issue now will be no staff on certain depots during the day to allow trains off - Farnham, Staines and Guildford shunters are all, as I understand, night staff only; and currently have their full complements of berthed stock. That’ll be the challenge for the evening peak.

That is a real useful and insightful reply. The sorry that would be against a disruption notice online so it gets a wider audience.

 

[Cavan]

I think bad disruption highlights the disadvantages of the current structure of the railways. In network southeast days there was someone in overall charge of a function (such as control) and at the top. The director of a region had both operations and engineering report to him. I think now with the toc/nr split there isn't that person in overall "control" to come up with a plan and make it run.

See this documentary on you tube. From nse days. Overunning engineering at Charing x causes chaos but attempts are made to come up with a plan to restore service and appropriate questions are asked by a senior manager of all functions.

 

[Carntyne]

I think bad disruption highlights the disadvantages of the current structure of the railways. In network southeast days there was someone in overall charge of a function (such as control) and at the top. The director of a region had both operations and engineering report to him. I think now with the toc/nr split there isn't that person in overall "control" to come up with a plan and make it run.

See this documentary on you tube. From nse days. Overunning engineering at Charing x causes chaos but attempts are made to co.e up with a plan to restore service and approapote questions are asked by a senior manager of all functions.

There still is, it's the Route Control Manager.

 

[Robertj21a]

The first paragraph of the main text starts "Abellio Rail Replacement (ARR) provides a specialist service to the UK Railway industry when services are disrupted due to planned engineering work and are experts at providing vehicles at short notice for emergency incidents on the railway."

While some of the cover will be provided by having standby buses and drivers, I expect they provide a lot of it by having some of their day to day services signed up to a cheaper contract that allows them to borrow buses and drivers when they're needed to meet a crisis on the railway. So some places will drop from say 6 buses an hour to 4 buses an hour, freeing up 2 to go do the emergency stuff, and it will all be priced into the various contracts they offer different companies. This is how cover and backfill arrangements work in other industries.

Sorry, that is utter nonsense. There's only one significant source of buses for emergency rail replacements around London - and it isn't Abellio.
Abellio buses generally work on TfL tenders and there will be few spare buses or drivers.

 

[Cavan]

With the best will in the world nr and tocs will always have different priorities and it is hard for someone who is not in an official management chain to influence others.

 

[moley]

They will have modelled the costs of Cancelling almost every train Versus attempting to run a a service with what they have to where they can. And I suspect that as NR is swallowing the bill here, it's better not to run the risk of trains and crew in odd random places when it gets fixed because that will cost more/ not be recoverable from NR, so better to trouser the compensation and not run a service .... (am I being unfair here ?)

Here is my issue... I commute PMH to Guildford but could not today between 5am and almost 8am. As station staff said trains ✅ drivers ✅ guards ✅ management will to help public ❎.

Pompey line picks up lots of school kids and drops them off before/at Guildford. All late because of no trains.

I’m really frustrated today as the focus was only on Waterloo passengers - everyone else suffered.

 

[OneOffDave]

I had to drive in from Farnborough to near Waterloo which took me two and a half hours. There were at least 200+ people when I left Farnborough station at just after 0700 so it would have taken a fair few buses to get them into London and tied them up for several hours. I do suspect there's very little spare bus and driver capacity available at 0700 on a Monday morning

 

[oversteer]

Can you please stop talking about this as if you have any experience in the matter, as it is clear you do not.

Have you ever been on the receiving end of emergency rail replacement services, from Abellio or from any other company?
Can you show me where these drivers and vehicles will come from at this short notice, to join the traffic on already busy roads?
Have you ever been on these replacement buses and known how many turn up vs the expected demand?
For example the entire WCML collapsed recently in an afternoon, no buses could be sourced within 250 miles so for the entire West Coast there were 3 taxis ordered, which took up to three hours to arrive. Can you explain what you would do with these three taxis to cover the whole of the SWML in similar circumstances?

(The way you say that Network Rail (LNWR) would be ordering replacement buses shows your lack of knowledge in the matter, it would be the train operators (such as LNR) that do this)

Sorry if I confused you, LNWR was a reference to London Northwestern Railway. I can confirm that they, and other TOCs, do run rail replacement buses if there are disruptions on the network - even same-day emergency closures. I presume they use licenced drivers who drive the buses and coaches from the depots where they are parked during the day or night.

 

[hassaanhc]

I think there were issues around the Surbiton/Hampton court junction area as well. The Hampton CT bidirectional still seems to be blocked.

Trains were also unable to reach Weybridge via Chertsey as the stopping service via Hounslow was terminating at either Virginia Water or diverted after Staines to Windsor & Eton Riverside.

 

[DarloRich]

NR has delivered extremely badly, all over the place. But is rarely criticised by the unions, preferring to spun that it's a funding issue. The issue isn't funding, it's the insane costs to do anything (which is always talked away as the "quality needed").

Sorry, but NR is currently not fit for purpose and I am not real,y seeing how it's better than Railtrack. It's currently just a bit luckier.

I think bad disruption highlights the disadvantages of the current structure of the railways. In network southeast days there was someone in overall charge of a function (such as control) and at the top. The director of a region had both operations and engineering report to him. I think now with the toc/nr split there isn't that person in overall "control" to come up with a plan and make it run.

See this documentary on you tube. From nse days. Overunning engineering at Charing x causes chaos but attempts are made to come up with a plan to restore service and appropriate questions are asked by a senior manager of all functions.

There are some silly posts on this thread. These two vie for first place. The top one is a silly rant with little to back it up and certainly no reflection of reality. The bottom is just bizarre. Does the poster honestly believe no one is in charge?

This is the service they advertise:
https://www.abellio.co.uk/rail-replacement/

No idea on capacity, but I’m sure they’d tell you if you ask.

The other networks do manage to rustle up services same day; LNWR with services to and from Luton/Stanmore, one I can recently remember.

SWR should have contingency plans for overrunning works and provide some way to connect to other stations, I don’t expect them to run shuttle buses stopping at every point to Waterloo.

Yes services can be arranged but it takes a period of time, usually up to several hours to, to do so. I tis noether instant nor as easy as simply rining up, uttering a code word and having a fleet of buses arrive on site.

BTW I think you are confusing your examples. The Stanmore ones were for planned closoures. LNWR usually run to Luton from MK and Wellingbrough (?) from Northampton in terms of disruption

 

[Antman]

Rant it may be, but

Blackpool Manchester
GW electrification
Waterloo and SW improvements

Who is to blame for them being so, so bad. What is the cause of what seems to be most of SWR's delays and cancellations.

Are you seriously suggesting the management at NR (and some of its coal face people) go home and say "now that's a job well done; I can be proud of that." Because it's currently not good enough for passengers, it's not good enough for professional people to deliver such a mess. And even today, Cash is blaming the public sector company and the politicians he doesn't like. What about a bit of honesty?

As punters, we want it to work. It we massively dislike the patronising "you wouldn't understand, you're just a passenger, mansplaining" : we, surprisingly often, aren't (that) stupid, just utterly frustrated at how it seems like it is still the 1970s for so much of the railway. And we find it odd that the railway doesn't understand that you run the trains for us, not we pay you to run the railway for you. So it should work for us.

 

[DarloRich]

Rant it may be, but

Blackpool Manchester
GW electrification
Waterloo and SW improvements

Who is to blame for them being so, so bad. What is the cause of what seems to be most of SWR's delays and cancellations.

Are you seriously suggesting the management at NR (and some of its coal face people) go home and say "now that's a job well done; I can be proud of that." Because it's currently not good enough for passengers, it's not good enough for professional people to deliver such a mess. And even today, Cash is blaming the public sector company and the politicians he doesn't like. What about a bit of honesty?

As punters, we want it to work. It we massively dislike the patronising "you wouldn't understand, you're just a passenger, mansplaining" : were, surprisingly often aren't (that) stupid, just utterly frustrated at how it seems like it is still the 1970s for so much of the ralpilway

but, and i say this with respect, you clearly don't understand. You are not, as they say, comparing apples with apples via your 3 quoted examples. Perhaps you could explain what you think are the reasons for problems. Perhaps you could apply some of your "honesty" to your own views because the position you set out is not an honest attempt to explain the position.

BTW are you seriously suggesting the management at NR (and some of its coal face people) go home laughing at how great today was because they shut Waterloo? Your inference is insulting, childish and stupid.

 

[infobleep]

Are South Western Railway advising people that there are likely to be increased problems in the peak as they won't be able to run extra trains?

They are all currently shown as running. Will South Western Railway be meeting to put in a plan for what they will be able to run this evening?

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Just had Mick Cash on World At One declaring (surprise, surprise) that our 'fragmented, privatised railway' was at the root of today's problems. Sadly Sarah Montague didn't challenge him on the fact that Network Rail is a Government owned company and the overrun was their fault, so how would New British Rail do it any better? <sighs>

 

[DarloRich]

Just had Mick Cash on World At One declaring (surprise, surprise) that our 'fragmented, privatised railway' was at the root of today's problems. Sadly Sarah Montague didn't challenge him on the fact that Network Rail is a Government owned company and the overrun was their fault, so how would New British Rail do it any better? <sighs>

But that statement, probably, isnt incorrect.

 

[Signal Head]

Just had Mick Cash on World At One declaring (surprise, surprise) that our 'fragmented, privatised railway' was at the root of today's problems. Sadly Sarah Montague didn't challenge him on the fact that Network Rail is a Government owned company and the overrun was their fault, so how would New British Rail do it any better? <sighs>

As mentioned up thread, if the TOC knows it can simply run nothing and collect the compensation from NR, they have no incentive to try to run anything. NR cannot insist they try to run a service, indeed they'd look pretty silly if they tried, having caused the problem in the first place.
Contrast that with a unified infrastructure/operator, who knows they will be paying out compensation to passengers, but have no-one to recoup it from. Isn't it conceivable they would have tried a little harder to get something running?

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

As mentioned up thread, if the TOC knows it can simply run nothing and collect the compensation from NR, they have no incentive to try to run anything. NR cannot insist they try to run a service, indeed they'd look pretty silly if they tried, having caused the problem in the first place.
Contrast that with a unified infrastructure/operator, who knows they will be paying out compensation to passengers, but have no-one to recoup it from. Isn't it conceivable they would have tried a little harder to get something running?

I'd suggest then you've got a loophole in your contract between TOC, Network Rail and Government (as the franchise customer) that needs sorting. That's not a fundamental problem with splitting track from trains - that's poor legal work at the franchise award stage.

 

[Antman]

but, and i say this with respect, you clearly don't understand. You are not, as they say, comparing apples with apples via your 3 quoted examples. Perhaps you could explain what you think are the reasons for problems. Perhaps you could apply some of your "honesty" to your own views because the position you set out is not an honest attempt to explain the position.

BTW are you seriously suggesting the management at NR (and some of its coal face people) go home laughing at how great today was because they shut Waterloo? Your inference is insulting, childish and stupid.

No, I expect clarity from those that know. I expect accountability with billions of other people's money and I expect those trusted to deliver to simply do that. All you're doing is attempting to tell me I don't know anything - I am assuming you therefore are closer to the railway than a mere customer. Why don't you have a go at explaining why NR fails to deliver so consistently.... why not try to correct my misconceptions and misunderstandings, instead of just rubbishing them.

FWIW, and I have worked with many companies, from 100K + employees in fifty countries down to 1 (And I have acted on investments in, and acquisitions and disposals of, railways, airports, leasing companies (ships, planes, trains and lots of lesser transport assets, the problems in NR seem to stem from lots of things, poor quality leadership, a lack of accountability, little penalty if it goes wrong (financially or timewise they don't suffer), an enormous workforce that seems to be mainly subcontracted out, unrealistic expectations placed on it, but, if I liken it to BL and Ford and the British car industry in the 1970s, the problems were endemic and those inside refused to accept that they were the cause of, or at least not facilitating the solution to, many of the problems..... that is an outsider. If I am wrong, then why not suggest why I am wrong and maybe suggest some corrections.... but I suspect all you will do is give it that knowing "oh, look he's a fool, he hasn't got a clue...." approach - and not see that this is part of the problem.

Where I deal with NR professionally, I find them useless (And I chose the word carefully) - they are never available, they specialise in not being drawn on any point and everything takes longer than it should, with no explanation.

As for how management go home, you extrapolated into nonsense. Presumably in an attempt to divert, again. Many of them simply must go home and know what they are doing it substandard, but some don't change it (whether because they can't, or aren't bothered enough) and others no doubt genuinely do go home and say "you know what, this isn't good enough, what can I do and what will I do, to change it?". Which one would you be ? (even if your (notional your, not personally you) lucrative day rate depended on it ?)

Oh and some of them go home with knighthoods, for overseeing ridiculous cost and time overruns and horrific disruptions.

 

[infobleep]

But that statement, probably, isnt incorrect.

That maybe correct but I doubt the South Western Railway robbing the rail network blind is correct and unfortunately, in my opinion, it's the latter statements that give the RMT a bad name.

 

[infobleep]

When it rains it pours. View attachment 55647

Still at least the disruption is expected to be over by 15:00 so prior to the evening rush hour.

 

[DarloRich]

No, I expect clarity from those that know. I expect accountability with billions of other people's money and I expect those trusted to deliver to simply do that. All you're doing is attempting to tell me I don't know anything - I am assuming you therefore are closer to the railway than a mere customer. Why don't you have a go at explaining why NR fails to deliver so consistently.... why not try to correct my misconceptions and misunderstandings, instead of just rubbishing them.

FWIW, and I have worked with many companies, from 100K + employees in fifty countries down to 1 (And I have acted on investments in, and acquisitions and disposals of, railways, airports, leasing companies (ships, planes, trains and lots of lesser transport assets, the problems in NR seem to stem from lots of things, poor quality leadership, a lack of accountability, little penalty if it goes wrong (financially or timewise they don't suffer), an enormous workforce that seems to be mainly subcontracted out, unrealistic expectations placed on it, but, if I liken it to BL and Ford and the British car industry in the 1970s, the problems were endemic and those inside refused to accept that they were the cause of, or at least not facilitating the solution to, many of the problems..... that is an outsider. If I am wrong, then why not suggest why I am wrong and maybe suggest some corrections.... but I suspect all you will do is give it that knowing "oh, look he's a fool, he hasn't got a clue...." approach - and not see that this is part of the problem.

Where I deal with NR professionally, I find them useless (And I chose the word carefully) - they are never available, they specialise in not being drawn on any point and everything takes longer than it should, with no explanation.

As for how management go home, you extrapolated into nonsense. Presumably in an attempt to divert, again. Many of them simply must go home and know what they are doing it substandard, but some don't change it (whether because they can't, or aren't bothered enough) and others no doubt genuinely do go home and say "you know what, this isn't good enough, what can I do and what will I do, to change it?". Which one would you be ? (even if your (notional your, not personally you) lucrative day rate depended on it ?)

Oh and some of them go home with knighthoods, for overseeing ridiculous cost and time overruns and horrific disruptions.

You are clearly a very angry person. I am not going to interact with you further as your posts are preposterous, and an insult.