Shortage of trains to cause severe disruption to Penistone Line and Ormskirk-Preston

[alangla]

Wheel flats are a regular problem in leaf fall season. How about putting device, such as a smaller version of a third rail pickup shoe, in front of the leading wheel of every train which is kept out of rail contact normally, but deployed under spring pressure in the event of a brake application? One at each each end for each track of a multiple unit should suffice.

Discuss!

A track brake? Some tramways use them in emergencies, but they have a habit of welding themselves to the rails

 

[edwin_m]

A track brake? Some tramways use them in emergencies, but they have a habit of welding themselves to the rails

RSSB did a study recently that said they would have some use on the UK rail network and there were no real reasons that would prevent them being used. Among other things the track brake is not much affected by poor railhead conditions.

Its not so much a flat wheel as flat spots on the wheel .

If a wheel locks and stops rotating when the brakes are applied due to railhead contamination it will slide along the rail , this metal on metal contact with tonnes of train on top then results in flat spots forming at the points on the wheel that are in contact with the rail as the slide happens .

Just to complete the story, the sliding doesn't wear down the wheel directly but heats up the contact patch to such a degree that it changes the chemical structure of the steel. The resulting form (martensite) is very brittle so quickly crumbles away. So a wheel flat is actually more of a cavity.

 

[Sankey Wire]

Indeed. I'm lucky travelling the full Manchester - Wigan, I always get a seat and have no on/off issues. But I sympathize massively with anyone who uses the intermediate stations.
The guards and other staff are, though, doing an amazing job dealing with (understandably) increasingly grumpy passengers every day. Don't envy them at all.

I’m currently on the 0756 Wigan to Leeds service, which is down to a single Pacer. It is standing room only already and showing no signs of movement; no announcements from the driver or guard (if there is one) as to why we are delayed.

It is clear that everyone is fed up, having commuted to Liverpool for seven years and for the last two months to Walkden, this will be my final week on the rails!

 

[Mathew S]

I’m currently on the 0756 Wigan to Leeds service, which is down to a single Pacer. It is standing room only already and showing no signs of movement; no announcements from the driver or guard (if there is one) as to why we are delayed.

It is clear that everyone is fed up, having commuted to Liverpool for seven years and for the last two months to Walkden, this will be my final week on the rails!

Same train as me
Torturous this morning isn't it.

 

[Gems]

I’m currently on the 0756 Wigan to Leeds service, which is down to a single Pacer. It is standing room only already and showing no signs of movement; no announcements from the driver or guard (if there is one) as to why we are delayed.

It is clear that everyone is fed up, having commuted to Liverpool for seven years and for the last two months to Walkden, this will be my final week on the rails!

Maybe they don't know why they are delayed. Often find out more from looking at 'open train times' than you get from Northern control.

 

[Mathew S]

Maybe they don't know why they are delayed. Often find out more from looking at 'open train times' than you get from Northern control.

In this specific instance it's the late running Wigan-Victoria stopper in front, due to overcrowding, plus delays to this service, also due to overcrowding. Or in other words, because both trains are too short/small.
That said, it is perhaps notable that, on the 0756, the guard hasn't exactly been falling over himself to keep passengers informed.

 

[Gems]

In this specific instance it's the late running Wigan-Victoria stopper in front, due to overcrowding, plus delays to this service, also due to overcrowding. Or in other words, because both trains are too short/small.
That said, it is perhaps notable that, on the 0756, the guard hasn't exactly been falling over himself to keep passengers informed.

He's probably as fed up as you are. Then again, the Wigan based guards I know are miserable gits, marginally better than the Manchester Vic ones.

 

[Sankey Wire]

Maybe they don't know why they are delayed. Often find out more from looking at 'open train times' than you get from Northern control.

In such cases, something along the lines of “apologies for the delay and discomfort, I will bring you more information when I have it” tends to be better than radio silence.

 

[Gems]

In such cases, something along the lines of “apologies for the delay and discomfort, I will bring you more information when I have it” tends to be better than radio silence.

Very true. See my post above.

 

[Mathew S]

He's probably as fed up as you are. Then again, the Wigan based guards I know are miserable gits, marginally better than the Manchester Vic ones.

Oh I don't doubt that he's every bit as fed up as we are. Some guards, though, do seem to do a lot more to at least make it seem like they care, even when they don't. The odd announcement, as @Sankey Wire says, goes a long way.

I'm currently sat here trying to remember when DR15 starts. I've had that many free tickets out of Arriva that, with the season ticket compensation as well, I haven't had to pay for my commute since August. And that's under the current 30 minute scheme!

 

[Gems]

Oh I don't doubt that he's every bit as fed up as we are. Some guards, though, do seem to do a lot more to at least make it seem like they care, even when they don't. The odd announcement, as @Sankey Wire says, goes a long way.

I'm currently sat here trying to remember when DR15 starts. I've had that many free tickets out of Arriva that, with the season ticket compensation as well, I haven't had to pay for my commute since August. And that's under the current 30 minute scheme!

And you get a pacer with fifty pence shaped wheels as well. Utter bargain.

 

[AWK]

Yes, my partner was commuting into Sheffield from Elsecar this morning and had the same problem. What's particularly galling is that, by only bothering to run trains between Huddersfield and Barnsley, Northern have effectively given up on commuters on local services between Barnsley and Sheffield and, given Northern's dismal record this year, I can imagine what starts off as an emergency timetable effectively becomes the WTT once it's been in place a week or two.

Indeed - despite the user name I now communicate from Elsecar to Doncaster via MHS and had the joy of the 153 yesterday!

I don't get why they are using the 2 units available to run Huddersfield - Barnsley (the quieter section of the route, but through the area where most of the wheel flat damage is occurring!). Surely a better use of the resources available would be to run Sheffield - Penistone and put buses on PEN - HUD. That way would serve most of the population on the line and keep the units away from the part of the route that is damaging them!

 

[Mogster]

This issue seems to be making the local news now. Leaves destroying the train wheels etc...

Do rail vehicles not use ABS as road vehicles and aircraft do? Once a wheel is locked and being dragged it’s not helping you stop much is it?

 

[ComUtoR]

Do rail vehicles not use ABS as road vehicles and aircraft do?

Yes, its known as WSP

 

[Mathew S]

Do rail vehicles not use ABS as road vehicles and aircraft do? Once a wheel is locked and being dragged it’s not helping you stop much is it?

Even on cars, ABS isn't perfect though; and I imagine that on a train even a brief skid can cause damage given the huge forces involved.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't get why they are using the 2 units available to run Huddersfield - Barnsley (the quieter section of the route, but through the area where most of the wheel flat damage is occurring!). Surely a better use of the resources available would be to run Sheffield - Penistone and put buses on PEN - HUD. That way would serve most of the population on the line and keep the units away from the part of the route that is damaging them!

Presumably because other trains run between Barnsley and Sheffield so running Huddersfield to Barnsley means they can avoid running replacement buses. Also they can run Huddersfield-Barnsley and Barnsley-Huddersfield without changing the times of services given northbound services to Huddersfield usually leave Barnsley a few minutes after southbound services from Huddersfield arrive - even if turning around at Penistone is possible the train will spend 40 minutes stopped there unless they redo the timings.

 

[Edders23]

I can't remember it being a major issue with 1st gen dmu's

 

[175001]

no announcements from the driver or guard (if there is one) as to why we are delayed.

Guard probably wedged with the passengers and can't get in the back cab.....

 

[175001]

He's probably as fed up as you are. Then again, the Wigan based guards I know are miserable gits, marginally better than the Manchester Vic ones.

I think we're all fed up....

 

[Killingworth]

Was at Piccadilly yesterday morning and witnessed platform staff trying to cram ever more into a 2 car 150 for Wigan, finally calling it a day when some started backing out to try again. Then they tried to stop any more trying and told them to wait for the next train. As far as I could tell about a dozen didn't get on, but I'm very glad that wasn't my train! (I'd just travelled from Sheffield by TPE on a 185 that normally has 6 carriages but had only 3, so had been sardine tinned myself for an hour!) As you'll see the announcement board says this train has 4 coaches! It left 12 minutes late, taking over 3 minutes to board instead of the booked 2 minutes.

 

[HLE]

One of the most ridiculous rules imposed on new drivers is that they throw the train brake into 'emergency' if they feel the train is out of control. Being very inexperienced this is now consistently done in panic mode hence stopping well before the required Point & seriously damaging the wheelset. Sadly this is the climate of fear train drivers live in & are taught nowadays thus saving their career but to hell with the service for the passengers & timetable.

If it slides in 1, it’ll slide in 2,3.....get the idea behind it but all it does it keep the depot stacked up with work.

 

[Mathew S]

Was at Piccadilly yesterday morning and witnessed platform staff trying to cram ever more into a 2 car 150 for Wigan, finally calling it a day when some started backing out to try again. Then they tried to stop any more trying and told them to wait for the next train. As far as I could tell about a dozen didn't get on, but I'm very glad that wasn't my train! (I'd just travelled from Sheffield by TPE on a 185 that normally has 6 carriages but had only 3, so had been sardine tinned myself for an hour!) As you'll see the announcement board says this train has 4 coaches! It left 12 minutes late, taking over 3 minutes to board instead of the booked 2 minutes.

View attachment 55692

That's one of the biggest problem's the overcrowding is causing: delays. I've spent upwards of five minutes at stations on the Atherton line before now when trains have been short formed; and timings are tight enough along there as it is.

 

[northwichcat]

Penistone Line set to return to normal tomorrow. Ormskirk-Preston service still suspended tomorrow.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Indeed - despite the user name I now communicate from Elsecar to Doncaster via MHS and had the joy of the 153 yesterday!

I don't get why they are using the 2 units available to run Huddersfield - Barnsley (the quieter section of the route, but through the area where most of the wheel flat damage is occurring!). Surely a better use of the resources available would be to run Sheffield - Penistone and put buses on PEN - HUD. That way would serve most of the population on the line and keep the units away from the part of the route that is damaging them!

I can only assume that you're unfamiliar with the roads along the Penistone line... several of the stations are distant from the main roads and not easily accessed by buses. For planned bustitution this isn't a problem (just serve specific stops in the village or on the main road) but at short notice, how are passengers supposed to know whether they should climb the hill to Brockholes station (for example) or walk down to the main road?

"They should inconvenience others, not me!" is how these posts come across.

 

[alangla]

If it slides in 1, it’ll slide in 2,3.....get the idea behind it but all it does it keep the depot stacked up with work.

I thought if the brake was pushed to emergency, it turned the WSP off & basically ensured a flat? If it was in one of the steps then you’d get a juddering (and longer) stop as the WSP tried to keep the wheels turning

 

[Bletchleyite]

As you'll see the announcement board says this train has 4 coaches!

It's hard to have any sympathy for Northern when they can't even be bothered to enter the correct formation information into the PIS. WMT manage it if there is a short form.

 

[northwichcat]

Penistone Line set to return to normal tomorrow. Ormskirk-Preston service still suspended tomorrow.

Spoke too soon. They were just slower at putting the Penistone Line changes on the system.

 

[Eccles1983]

I thought if the brake was pushed to emergency, it turned the WSP off & basically ensured a flat? If it was in one of the steps then you’d get a juddering (and longer) stop as the WSP tried to keep the wheels turning

It only gets put in emergency when you have attempted everything and admit defeat.

Not at the start of the slide, you try to fight it but when you think you are missing the station or red signal - throw it in.

Auto Sanders will kick in and let it take care of it. Your download will then reflect your attempts.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Indeed - despite the user name I now communicate from Elsecar to Doncaster via MHS and had the joy of the 153 yesterday!

I don't get why they are using the 2 units available to run Huddersfield - Barnsley (the quieter section of the route, but through the area where most of the wheel flat damage is occurring!). Surely a better use of the resources available would be to run Sheffield - Penistone and put buses on PEN - HUD. That way would serve most of the population on the line and keep the units away from the part of the route that is damaging them!

Personally two 153's would be enough for the Penistone Line services between Huddersfield and Barnsley, especially with some units requiring the laithe.

 

[Wolfie]

NR should have told Jo Johnson where to get off. This is a safety issue. He has no right telling NR how to manage its affairs.

You may find, dependent upon the bird species, that to cut the trees would breach wildlife protection laws. Also it is not impossible that tree preservation orders may be in place.