Arriva Rail North DOO

[74A]

Once again, a vivid imagination built on a lack of knowledge. I know in your mind I'm sure you would love to believe that might happen, the thought must be a bit like having a comforter against a nasty world where others don't share your viewpoint. But it has no basis in reality.

Myself if I wanted to gain a understanding of what drives something, I would listen to what those doing the driving and being driven say.

It wasn't a serious suggestion but said because of what you said. Something needs to happen. We currently have a triumvirate of RMT saying no DOO Northern saying its in our contract so we can't change and the DfT saying its not their problem and leaving it to their contractor to sort out.

I not convinced that you will strike forever. In a couple of years time when the DCO is up to 70% Northern will be able to operate 100% of their service with PUG. The strikes on Southern petered out when so much of the network had become DOO that strikes were no longer having any real effect. On Anglia they could run 100% of the service so RMT conceded the doors with a second member of staff on the branches but not on the mainline.

So probably another 3 years at the current rate.

 

[Confused52]

Some on here do. Some seem to think introducing DCO capable stock will cause it to dissolve. It will just make the situation even more toxic. There is only one thing that will break this action other than a settlement, that is circumstances from within.

Very cryptic, I assume that you think David Brown will have a Damascene conversion or more probably that the managers will give in and leave. If they did there would be no service on Saturdays at all and it still wouldn't trigger the DfT into taking the franchise away from ARN. After all who would take it on in that situation so the DfT will decide it is best to soldier on. However the nuclear option will start being planned in my opinion because the government cannot support Transport for the North and the Northern Powerhouse rail in these circumstances without serious public unease. The new stock may well be used as a trigger but there are not enough to be a solution as you suggest.

 

[yorksrob]

On the contrary, quite a lot of people like the government and even Arriva !!
I accept that many may not agree with how the government/DfT/Arriva - or RMT - have handled this dispute but it will, eventually, be resolved, possibly not until the franchise changes.

That's unacceptable to me and the rest of Northern's passengers. I would rather see some sort of campaign of civil disobedience by passengers in the meantime.

 

[Gems]

It wasn't a serious suggestion but said because of what you said. Something needs to happen. We currently have a triumvirate of RMT saying no DOO Northern saying its in our contract so we can't change and the DfT saying its not their problem and leaving it to their contractor to sort out.

I not convinced that you will strike forever. In a couple of years time when the DCO is up to 70% Northern will be able to operate 100% of their service with PUG. The strikes on Southern petered out when so much of the network had become DOO that strikes were no longer having any real effect. On Anglia they could run 100% of the service so RMT conceded the doors with a second member of staff on the branches but not on the mainline.

So probably another 3 years at the current rate.

Both of you gentlemen make very good points. I wish other could see a bit of reality also.

There are many ways in which this strike could dissolve itself. I can name a few. But first of all lets make a few clear points.

There is still a element of goodwill towards Northern Rail. I display it myself by being a conductor minder. I do not get paid for getting new conductors through their rules, and this element of goodwill is evident in other areas also. People on here think we work over to make up for loss of earnings in the strike, why did we work over before the strike? It was because underneath all the vitrol we have no real desire to see passengers without a service.
Bear in mind this. You may work over in your job for say two hours in a evening. Our overtime working is a whole rest day, that can be ten hours in some cases and up to 12 trains. That is twelve trains cancelled. But nobody ever thanks us for this level of commitment. It is partly this that is making people angry. Asking for our time at the same time as indicating we aren't wanted. The recent drivers overtime agreement made things worse. How much fuel do you want pouring on the fire?

Others mention guarantees of jobs. Yet how can you look seriously at this when Arriva have yet to come out with one single proposal? In my world if you wanted to sell something it is always wise to show it to the buyer first.

There is a lot that could make people return to work. I have seen nothing of substance yet. I'm not a gambler, but if I was I would say it is likely to implode rather than Arriva having the management skills to end it.

 

[pemma]

Probably handing them to the queue of passengers unable to board the trains (see another thread).

Which other thread is that?

I notice next Saturday Northern seem to have first services earlier and last services later but seem to be keeping the same number of services in total.

 

[Gems]

Which other thread is that?

I notice next Saturday Northern seem to have first services earlier and last services later but seem to be keeping the same number of services in total.

Where is the timetable? I'l predict this. If they start trying to run later trains that are infested with drunks and social misfits, more managers will make themselves unavailable.

 

[Mag_seven]

I've said it before and I'll say it again its about time that the North's political leaders (such as Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham) started to bang heads together and get both sides round the table. Things cannot continue as they are - there comes a point where enough is enough.

 

[pemma]

Where is the timetable? I'l predict this. If they start trying to run later trains that are infested with drunks and social misfits, more managers will make themselves unavailable.

Northern haven't published the timetables but have uploaded some timetable information. Search on RTT for a specific station for next Saturday.

 

[pemma]

I've said it before and I'll say it again its about time that the North's political leaders (such as Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham) started to bang heads together and get both sides round the table. Things cannot continue as they are - there comes a point where enough is enough.

Burnham and Rotheram tried the approach of call off the strikes, which are unfairly penalising passengers and we'll work with you to resolve the dispute, to which the RMT responded by announcing more strikes.

 

[Gems]

Northern haven't published the timetables but have uploaded some timetable information. Search on RTT for a specific station for next Saturday.

I'll have a look. But like I say. If they try it, it will be the first and last week before the service implodes completely.

 

[yorksrob]

I've said it before and I'll say it again its about time that the North's political leaders (such as Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham) started to bang heads together and get both sides round the table. Things cannot continue as they are - there comes a point where enough is enough.

I will continue to contact my MP until I get some sort of response as to what they are doing about it.

 

[Gems]

Burnham and Rotheram tried the approach of call off the strikes, which are unfairly penalising passengers and we'll work with you to resolve the dispute, to which the RMT responded by announcing more strikes.

They have no power to solve the strikes, so why would anyone listen to them.

 

[Gems]

I will continue to contact my MP until I get some sort of response as to what they are doing about it.

Not a Tory is he? If it is, he won't be bothered.

 

[Dave1987]

So probably time for the company to sack all the guards and start again

Seeing as a lot of drivers and other staff will no doubt be friends with the guards you are hardly going to win the loyalty and enthusiasm of drivers and others by sacking the guards. Your comments remind me of the stupid management systems that resulted in a complete and utter disaster of a May timetable change.

 

[Meerkat]

As the guards are striking anyway can the TOC start recruiting OBS with a temporary initial upgrade to guard duties?
If they wanted to play dirty presumably the DfT could offer to pay for Northern to buy more DCO trains, conditional on a deal with ASLEF and the RMT....
“Hello passengers, you could have new trains but they are unaffordable due to union greed.....”
Or...
“We will settle with the RMT if surveys suggest passengers will accept fares will go up 10%, then be index linked to on train wages”

 

[Gems]

Seeing as a lot of drivers and other staff will no doubt be friends with the guards you are hardly going to win the loyalty and enthusiasm of drivers and others by sacking the guards. Your comments remind me of the stupid management systems that resulted in a complete and utter disaster of a May timetable change.

I have to say Dave. It does make me smile. I can just see the reaction when Arriva approach Liverpool and Manchester drivers to operate the doors and take on the risk of prosecution should they get it wrong. Oh dear. It would take a wedge the size of Peter Wilkinsons expenses claims to budge them, but even then, I doubt they would move. Not going to happen is it.

 

[Gems]

As the guards are striking anyway can the TOC start recruiting OBS with a temporary initial upgrade to guard duties?
If they wanted to play dirty presumably the DfT could offer to pay for Northern to buy more DCO trains, conditional on a deal with ASLEF and the RMT....
“Hello passengers, you could have new trains but they are unaffordable due to union greed.....”
Or...
“We will settle with the RMT if surveys suggest passengers will accept fares will go up 10%, then be index linked to on train wages”

More vivid imagination thinking based on anger and not reality.

 

[Dave1987]

As the guards are striking anyway can the TOC start recruiting OBS with a temporary initial upgrade to guard duties?
If they wanted to play dirty presumably the DfT could offer to pay for Northern to buy more DCO trains, conditional on a deal with ASLEF and the RMT....
“Hello passengers, you could have new trains but they are unaffordable due to union greed.....”
Or...
“We will settle with the RMT if surveys suggest passengers will accept fares will go up 10%, then be index linked to on train wages”

You remind me of the Tory MPs that made me think again about ever voting Tory again.

 

[yorksrob]

Not a Tory is he? If it is, he won't be bothered.

She isn't.

 

[Meerkat]

The reality is that the government were willing to suffer hugely disruptive strikes in their Home Counties heartlands, then pay for a huge driver deal, to beat the RMT on Southern.
So how far do you think they will go in Northern Labour heartlands, especially considering the Corbyn angle - “This Conservative government is trying to enable massive investment in Northern rail services, but has been frustrated by Corbyn’s Trot friends in the unions. We are forced to cancel some investment that is now uneconomic and will spend it on train services elsewhere”

I exaggerate for effect, but I can only see one ‘winner’ (well two when ASLEF extract a tidy payrise)

 

[Dave1987]

I have to say Dave. It does make me smile. I can just see the reaction when Arriva approach Liverpool and Manchester drivers to operate the doors and take on the risk of prosecution should they get it wrong. Oh dear. It would take a wedge the size of Peter Wilkinsons expenses claims to budge them, but even then, I doubt they would move. Not going to happen is it.

The language of some hard right wingers on here is akin to that of Joseph Stalin sadly. Shame our country is so bitterly divided at the moment. This whole state of affairs is similar to the mess the whole country is in.

 

[Dave1987]

The reality is that the government were willing to suffer hugely disruptive strikes in their Home Counties heartlands, then pay for a huge driver deal, to beat the RMT on Southern.
So how far do you think they will go in Northern Labour heartlands, especially considering the Corbyn angle - “This Conservative government is trying to enable massive investment in Northern rail services, but has been frustrated by Corbyn’s Trot friends in the unions. We are forced to cancel some investment that is now uneconomic and will spend it on train services elsewhere”

I exaggerate for effect, but I can only see one ‘winner’ (well two when ASLEF extract a tidy payrise)

Yes May’s Government collapsing and a coalition of some kind being elected.

 

[Meerkat]

Yes May’s Government collapsing and a coalition of some kind being elected

That is presumably the RMT’s only hope, but their actions are probably making it less likely

 

[Gems]

The reality is that the government were willing to suffer hugely disruptive strikes in their Home Counties heartlands, then pay for a huge driver deal, to beat the RMT on Southern.
So how far do you think they will go in Northern Labour heartlands, especially considering the Corbyn angle - “This Conservative government is trying to enable massive investment in Northern rail services, but has been frustrated by Corbyn’s Trot friends in the unions. We are forced to cancel some investment that is now uneconomic and will spend it on train services elsewhere”

I exaggerate for effect, but I can only see one ‘winner’ (well two when ASLEF extract a tidy payrise)

Southern isn't Northern. That is the core issue Grayling and his Tory friends in the Tory shires fail to see. Your whole posting is just barmy to be honest. Can't believe I am actually reading this crap. I think I'll go clean the car.

 

[Robertj21a]

There's rather a lot of silly comments on here today !

I see no likelihood of the DfT or Arriva moving from their stated position. All the time that the RMT continue with their blanket requirement there seems to be little point in any more meetings.
If this was an ordinary company, trying to deal with a workforce that refuses to co-operate, they would give notice of a change to their terms of employment, with an alternative of dismissal. Clearly, that's much more difficult with the Northern guards - however, there comes a time when Arriva will wish to avoid further harm to its name. As I have said before, I can forsee a time, not far away, when Arriva (after consultation with the DfT) decides to take matters further. The RMT may then wish they had co-operated.

 

[Dave1987]

That is presumably the RMT’s only hope, but their actions are probably making it less likely

Not really. Ask any Tory MP if they would like another election right now and see them crawl up the wall at the thought. May very nearly lost power by naively thinking her surprise election call would be a landslide and things haven’t gotten any better since.

 

[Dave1987]

There's rather a lot of silly comments on here today !

I see no likelihood of the DfT or Arriva moving from their stated position. All the time that the RMT continue with their blanket requirement there seems to be little point in any more meetings.
If this was an ordinary company, trying to deal with a workforce that refuses to co-operate, they would give notice of a change to their terms of employment, with an alternative of dismissal. Clearly, that's much more difficult with the Northern guards - however, there comes a time when Arriva will wish to avoid further harm to its name. As I have said before, I can forsee a time, not far away, when Arriva (after consultation with the DfT) decides to take matters further. The RMT may then wish they had co-operated.

As I said to you before, your idea of management would give you a very real problem of work to rule against you very quickly. You can’t do diddly squat against work to rule either.

 

[Robertj21a]

Both of you gentlemen make very good points. I wish other could see a bit of reality also.

There are many ways in which this strike could dissolve itself. I can name a few. But first of all lets make a few clear points.

There is still a element of goodwill towards Northern Rail. I display it myself by being a conductor minder. I do not get paid for getting new conductors through their rules, and this element of goodwill is evident in other areas also. People on here think we work over to make up for loss of earnings in the strike, why did we work over before the strike? It was because underneath all the vitrol we have no real desire to see passengers without a service.
Bear in mind this. You may work over in your job for say two hours in a evening. Our overtime working is a whole rest day, that can be ten hours in some cases and up to 12 trains. That is twelve trains cancelled. But nobody ever thanks us for this level of commitment. It is partly this that is making people angry. Asking for our time at the same time as indicating we aren't wanted. The recent drivers overtime agreement made things worse. How much fuel do you want pouring on the fire?

Others mention guarantees of jobs. Yet how can you look seriously at this when Arriva have yet to come out with one single proposal? In my world if you wanted to sell something it is always wise to show it to the buyer first.

There is a lot that could make people return to work. I have seen nothing of substance yet. I'm not a gambler, but if I was I would say it is likely to implode rather than Arriva having the management skills to end it.

Gems,

You've lost me a bit. You say that Arriva have yet to come out with one single proposal - I'm not sure what you are expecting Arriva to be proposing all the time that the RMT sticks to it's blanket refusal to co-operate.
What sort of proposal would you be looking for ?
(I'm hoping that, despite lots of hothead talk on here, it will still be possible to maintain some sensible dialogue !!)

 

[Robertj21a]

As I said to you before, your idea of management would give you a very real problem of work to rule against you very quickly. You can’t do diddly squat against work to rule either.

I agree. If it has to move into a Work to Rule then so be it. The travelling public and the government are quite capable of determining where the key problems exist.

 

[Dave1987]

I agree. If it has to move into a Work to Rule then so be it. The travelling public and the government are quite capable of determining where the key problems exist.

Remember a certain Tory MP whinging to the press about drivers working to rule and that it ‘wasn’t fair’. You need morale and loyalty to get the most out of your staff. Neither of which you seem to have any grasp over. Your idea of management is to rule with an iron fist.