Arriva Rail North DOO

[Paceman]

Hebden Bridge has been receiving an hourly service from Leeds the last few weeks, although nothing from the Manchester or Preston direction.

I was on the 60 today and it was the usual branded single decker, however did see a double decker on the route as well.

Correct. 7 trains to HB yesterday, obviously not ideal but also not no service. A lot of posts on this thread need fact checking.

 

[td97]

This continuing strike action must surely be detrimental to the wage slips of drivers, cleaners, dispatchers, control staff etc. if only 30% of services are running.
How do striking guards justify that?

 

[Tomnick]

This continuing strike action must surely be detrimental to the wage slips of drivers, cleaners, dispatchers, control staff etc. if only 30% of services are running.
How do striking guards justify that?

Why must it? They’re still at work, so they’re still getting paid. The only possible ‘loss’ is drivers who might otherwise have come in for rest day work on Saturdays not doing so.

 

[Carlisle]

How many platform, cleaning, catering and signalling staff are being made redundant? This thread is about the Northern dispute. Northern don't have catering or signalling staff.

I meant the rail industry as a whole rather than just northern. Some TOCs have reduced station or ticket office staff at certain locations during their watch and / or cut back on catering, cleaning or maintenance contracts too.
Signal boxes that have closed in recent years demonstrate that with the right people and sufficient willpower on all sides, change is possible on the railway withoout instantly going into dispute. I suspect that age old cultural differences of how various parts of the railway conduct industrial relations has a lot to do with how things have turned out

 

[pemma]

But the firemen were not made redundant. They were moved to a new station.

You missed the point about the station I referred to not being called closed but becoming an on-call station. That means some previously full time firefighters are now sat at their homes (which have to be round the corner from the now on-call fire station) and only get called in when the nearest full time fire station has too many incidents to deal with. That's much worse from an employment prospective than full time Southern guards becoming full time OBS' and is why the fire fighters strikes during the coalition government were far more justified than the RMT rail strikes.

 

[pemma]

Which line? Checked several and the last train is no later.

I did say last service not last train as not all lines have trains and some have a mixture of buses and trains. Buxton has trains starting an hour earlier and an hour later, Mid-Cheshire still only has 3 replacement buses but the first one has been moved earlier and the last one later and the Airport line has got later trains but not earlier trains.

 

[pemma]

Why must it? They’re still at work, so they’re still getting paid. The only possible ‘loss’ is drivers who might otherwise have come in for rest day work on Saturdays not doing so.

Indeed. If you turn up for work, you get paid it's not the employee's fault if the employer doesn't have anything useful for them to do. You would think Northern would take the opportunity to be getting drivers trained up on 195s and 331s but from what's been said in another thread that's not the case.

 

[td97]

Indeed. If you turn up for work, you get paid it's not the employee's fault if the employer doesn't have anything useful for them to do. You would think Northern would take the opportunity to be getting drivers trained up on 195s and 331s but from what's been said in another thread that's not the case.

My misunderstanding then

 

[evoluzione]

Indeed. If you turn up for work, you get paid it's not the employee's fault if the employer doesn't have anything useful for them to do. You would think Northern would take the opportunity to be getting drivers trained up on 195s and 331s but from what's been said in another thread that's not the case.

195 and 331 training can’t be done on single strike days, it’s to be 7 continuous days and is subject to a new agreement between ASLEF and Northern.

Other driver training does take place on strike days though, Safety Briefs, Route Briefs, Route Learning etc

 

[Robertj21a]

195 and 331 training can’t be done on single strike days, it’s to be 7 continuous days and is subject to a new agreement between ASLEF and Northern.

Other driver training does take place on strike days though, Safety Briefs, Route Briefs, Route Learning etc

Do I read that as 'subject to a new agreement'.........'which has yet to be agreed' ------or ------ 'has only recently been agreed' ???

 

[scrapy]

Do I read that as 'subject to a new agreement'.........'which has yet to be agreed' ------or ------ 'has only recently been agreed' ???

The latest I heard in the middle of last week was that an agreement in principle was made with Northern by ASLEF a few weeks ago. Since then Northern have gone back to ASLEF and tried to change the training agreement which would mean a lower overtime rate for newly qualified drivers than previously agreed. ASLEF have failed to agree this.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The latest I heard in the middle of last week was that an agreement in principle was made with Northern by ASLEF a few weeks ago. Since then Northern have gone back to ASLEF and tried to change the training agreement which would mean a lower overtime rate for newly qualified drivers than previously agreed. ASLEF have failed to agree this.

Sorry if this is veering off thread.
So, to be completely clear, training on the new trains has to be done on seven consecutive days (I would have thought that some drivers wouldn’t be very keen on that), these can’t include ‘strike days’, but for an indefinite period there has been a strike every seventh day.
Ergo there can be no training whatsoever on the new trains.
There are numerous posts predicting impasse and Saturday strikes all through 2019 so presumably when the Pacers and other non-PRM compliant stock has to be withdrawn at the end of the year there will be nothing available for service to replace them.
Is this really correct?

 

[td97]

Is this really correct?

My interpretation was that it can't exclusively be done on strike days. However, one of the 7 consecutive days could (and presently, will have to) be a strike day

 

[Tomnick]

Sorry if this is veering off thread.
So, to be completely clear, training on the new trains has to be done on seven consecutive days (I would have thought that some drivers wouldn’t be very keen on that), these can’t include ‘strike days’, but for an indefinite period there has been a strike every seventh day.
Ergo there can be no training whatsoever on the new trains.
There are numerous posts predicting impasse and Saturday strikes all through 2019 so presumably when the Pacers and other non-PRM compliant stock has to be withdrawn at the end of the year there will be nothing available for service to replace them.
Is this really correct?

I don’t know the details of the agreement here, but it seems reasonable for drivers to be released for a single period to get the training done even if that period includes rest days (so it might be Monday to Friday one week and then Monday and Tuesday the following week, for example). What wouldn’t be reasonable is spreading the training over a number of weeks with just one day a week in training and the rest out doing normal work.

Progression of traction training, of course, doesn’t constitute an agreement to work the new trains in DOO(P) mode!

 

[Robertj21a]

I don’t know the details of the agreement here, but it seems reasonable for drivers to be released for a single period to get the training done even if that period includes rest days (so it might be Monday to Friday one week and then Monday and Tuesday the following week, for example). What wouldn’t be reasonable is spreading the training over a number of weeks with just one day a week in training and the rest out doing normal work.

Progression of traction training, of course, doesn’t constitute an agreement to work the new trains in DOO(P) mode!

Quite !

I assume the trainees are at least given full instruction on how to operate the train in DOO(P) mode so that, if nothing else, any bugs or general problems with the new kit can be identified at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Tomnick]

Quite !

I assume the trainees are at least given full instruction on how to operate the train in DOO(P) mode so that, if nothing else, any bugs or general problems with the new kit can be identified at the earliest opportunity.

I should imagine so. My traction training (not Northern) included operation of the doors and such, sometimes necessary for DOO(NP) working but also for fault-finding and rectification. That said, I don’t know whether Northern drivers do that or whether they insist on a guard or dispatcher to lock trains up for them?

 

[scrapy]

Quite !

I assume the trainees are at least given full instruction on how to operate the train in DOO(P) mode so that, if nothing else, any bugs or general problems with the new kit can be identified at the earliest opportunity.

There is no agreement for DOO(P) at Northern and Northern have so far not attempted to include anything that is currently part of a guards role in the drivers training package. They did attempt to include SDO but ASLEF suggested they talk to the RMT about including it in the guards training, and RMT have agreed. It is currently a guards responsibility to dispose of trains. Much of a drivers training takes place on depot so there's no reason why one day can't be a strike day.

 

[pt_mad]

Out of interest how close to DOO type operation is movement of empty stock with only a driver onboard? Presumably if a unit had to be driven away from a station which didn't have dispatch staff, and the guard was to go off duty or work another service from there, then the driver would need.to dispatch the train by themselves? Granted the doors would likely be locked individually which someone checks the train for leftover passengers. But in essence, wouldn't the driver have to do a final visual check by themselves before moving off?

 

[evoluzione]

Do I read that as 'subject to a new agreement'.........'which has yet to be agreed' ------or ------ 'has only recently been agreed' ???

Already agreed as part of a wider package, this includes changes to our training T&C,s, unfortunately this is already being badly misused and wrongly implemented by Northern, ASLEF are now at “Avoidance of Dispute” stage with Northern over this issue.

The latest I heard in the middle of last week was that an agreement in principle was made with Northern by ASLEF a few weeks ago. Since then Northern have gone back to ASLEF and tried to change the training agreement which would mean a lower overtime rate for newly qualified drivers than previously agreed. ASLEF have failed to agree this.

Almost right, see above.
ASLEF offered Northern away out of the dispute, Northern Refused.

Sorry if this is veering off thread.
So, to be completely clear, training on the new trains has to be done on seven consecutive days (I would have thought that some drivers wouldn’t be very keen on that), these can’t include ‘strike days’, but for an indefinite period there has been a strike every seventh day.
Ergo there can be no training whatsoever on the new trains.
There are numerous posts predicting impasse and Saturday strikes all through 2019 so presumably when the Pacers and other non-PRM compliant stock has to be withdrawn at the end of the year there will be nothing available for service to replace them.
Is this really correct?

Seven Consecutive Days - Correct
Unhappy Drivers - Correct
No 195/331 Training on Strike Days - Correct/In Correct - I and many other Drivers refuse to work a rest day While our colleagues are losing money striking.

At the moment with guards only striking on Saturdays, I would refuse traction training if it included a Saturday Rest Day, I’d probably get marked up to it the following week when on different rest days though.

If RMT decide to mix their strike days up each week, who knows what will happen.

I should imagine so. My traction training (not Northern) included operation of the doors and such, sometimes necessary for DOO(NP) working but also for fault-finding and rectification. That said, I don’t know whether Northern drivers do that or whether they insist on a guard or dispatcher to lock trains up for them?

We are not allowed to close doors, a guard should be requested if a unit has been left open that’s going to depot or running ECS, ASLEF Circular in notice boards reminding us not to.

 

[pt_mad]

We are not allowed to close doors, a guard should be requested if a unit has been left open that’s going to depot, ASLEF Circulars in notice boards reminding us not to.

Half answers my empty stock move question above ^^.
What happens if say for example, there is an empty stock train on its way from a depot to the origin station in the morning. The train has to be stopped in a station due to a unit fault or safety reason. And the reason is such that at least one or all of the passenger doors needs to be released to identify or rectify the fault? Would the unit then be unable to move off again because of no guard present?

 

[Starmill]

Correct. 7 trains to HB yesterday, obviously not ideal but also not no service. A lot of posts on this thread need fact checking.

The timetable one strike day does not necessarily bear any resemblance to that which runs on the next. I guess this is causing confusion in some quarters. It has certainly baffled me on several occasions!

 

[Robertj21a]

Just a brief 'Thank You' to those who are contributing useful background information today.

 

[Starmill]

the Airport line has got later trains but not earlier trains.

Appears that it has worse last train times than on 1st December (1832 from Manchester Piccadilly) than on 24 November (1932 from Manchester Piccadilly) so...

 

[northernchris]

Already agreed as part of a wider package, this includes changes to our training T&C,s, unfortunately this is already being badly misused and wrongly implemented by Northern, ASLEF are now at “Avoidance of Dispute” stage with Northern over this issue.

Could this lead to industrial action by ASLEF too?

If RMT decide to mix their strike days up each week, who knows what will happen.

So by moving the strike days around it has potential to cause more disruption than Saturdays only

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Half answers my empty stock move question above ^^.
What happens if say for example, there is an empty stock train on its way from a depot to the origin station in the morning. The train has to be stopped in a station due to a unit fault or safety reason. And the reason is such that at least one or all of the passenger doors needs to be released to identify or rectify the fault? Would the unit then be unable to move off again because of no guard present?

I suppose it depends on the location the train is being terminated, if it is a unmanned halt at the end of a branch line it would be unlikely the guard would be leaving the train. However if it is a major terminal or staffed platform, the platform staff would clear the train, operate the porter switches and give the driver the right away.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could this lead to industrial action by ASLEF too?

If ASLEF flat won't accept DOO, then that's probably DOO dead in the water, realistically. The "nuclear option" is a possibility for guards but not for drivers.

So by moving the strike days around it has potential to cause more disruption than Saturdays only

I'd imagine so - far fewer Mon-Fri journeys are discretionary than weekend ones.

 

[Ken H]

If ASLEF flat won't accept DOO, then that's probably DOO dead in the water, realistically. The "nuclear option" is a possibility for guards but not for drivers.



I'd imagine so - far fewer Mon-Fri journeys are discretionary than weekend ones.

or they will de-skill/automate the drivers jobs. If we can have automatic trains on the tube, and driverless cars, why not trains?. I would have thought putting google driverless technology in a train would be quite easy, as a railway is a far simpler controlled environment compared to an urban street.

 

[Bletchleyite]

or they will de-skill/automate the drivers jobs. If we can have automatic trains on the tube, and driverless cars, why not trains?. I would have thought putting google driverless technology in a train would be quite easy, as a railway is a far simpler controlled environment compared to an urban street.

I have said before, and still think, that DOO is only a blip, and GOO - guard-only operation along the lines of the DLR - is the long term future. But I think (on the much more complex mainline) it is at least 10-20 years off, and so this situation will need resolving in a way that doesn't involve this sort of concept...yet.

I do agree it is an easier technical problem than driverless cars, which I don't expect to see for well over 20 years in day to day use (as distinct from automated driver safety aids like braking when an obstruction is detected and automatic reverse parking, which we see more of all the time and are a much simpler things to do).

 

[Dave1987]

or they will de-skill/automate the drivers jobs. If we can have automatic trains on the tube, and driverless cars, why not trains?. I would have thought putting google driverless technology in a train would be quite easy, as a railway is a far simpler controlled environment compared to an urban street.

*Yawn* let me know when it happens. Love how people who have never driven a train before say its ‘ow so easy to automate’.

 

[Bletchleyite]

*Yawn* let me know when it happens. Love how people who have never driven a train before say its ‘ow so easy to automate’.

I have driven a train (albeit under supervision on a preserved line). Your point is?