EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[EM2]

but if they have worked for one year they get residency right?

Nope.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citize...eu-nationals-permanent-residence/index_en.htm

As an EU national, you automatically acquire the right of permanent residence in another EU country if you have lived there legally for a continuous period of 5 years. If you fulfil this requirement, you can apply for a permanent residence document, which confirms your right to live in the country where you now live permanently, without any conditions.

then what? if they lose their job the next day and decide never to work again?
and before all the cries of "bigot" come flooding over... I don't for one minute think that even a large minority of EU migrants do that... but it DOES happen... and as I said before...unemployed Brits on the Costas aren't all genuinely looking for work to support themselves

And if Spain investigate, and those Britons are not complying with the regulations, then the Spanish can expel them. What's the problem?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Nope.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citize...eu-nationals-permanent-residence/index_en.htm


And if Spain investigate, and those Britons are not complying with the regulations, then the Spanish can expel them. What's the problem?

In that case if I had been the EU negotiator I would've said "ok Mrs May have back control of the movement of people... we'll let you opt out of the requirement... we'll give you all that you want... but remember.. all those times as Home Secretary that you blamed us and our inadequate rules... now the British public will see who was REALLY to blame for the problem!"

 

[bramling]

So the rest of the country (England and yes your right Wales) are not involved in the current clusterf%ck. That's a bit revisionist. Remind me who voted to leave the EU and cause the current problems with the gfa. It wasn't n. Ireland. It was the fine people of England (and Wales).

The Ireland problem is not the UK’s decision to leave the U.K., which could quite feasibly be accomplished by a hard border between the two parts of the island. The problem is that there are additional complications - that both parts of Ireland don’t wish to have that hard border, and that many also don’t wish to have any form of border with the rest of the U.K. Then there’s the added issue of the threat of violence or a return to the troubles.

I genuinely sympathise with these issues, however they are Northern Ireland’s problems. I find it unreasonable to blame English and Welsh voters for these issues.

 

[radamfi]

but the point is there is an easy solution... separate free movement of good from movement of people... as ROI isn't part of Schengen all customs controls can be carried out without any added border requirements... save that NI/ROI residents would need photo ID to travel to mainland Britain.

Why do you keep mentioning Schengen? This is irrelevant to trade. There are border controls between the UK and France (i.e. no Schengen) but there is a customs union between the UK and France so there is frictionless trade between them. However, the UK no longer wants a customs union between the UK and the EU, which means there will no longer be frictionless trade between the UK and France, and between the UK and the Republic of Ireland. But frictionless trade is essential between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and also between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Can't see how that's possible without a customs union between the UK and Ireland, and therefore between the UK and the EU.

 

[bramling]

Again, because it would mean treating the UK differently to every other country that doesn't have an arrangement, and it would mean betraying their founding principles. Why do you insist that they should do that?

One lesson from history is that ideology never makes good policy. The EU’s ideological wedding to these principles is one good reason for leaving in my view. They may have been a good idea once, however times change, and any governing body should demonstrate that it is responsive to the needs if its people.

 

[nidave]

The Ireland problem is not the UK’s decision to leave the U.K., which could quite feasibly be accomplished by a hard border between the two parts of the island. The problem is that there are additional complications - that both parts of Ireland don’t wish to have that hard border, and that many also don’t wish to have any form of border with the rest of the U.K. Then there’s the added issue of the threat of violence or a return to the troubles.

I genuinely sympathise with these issues, however they are Northern Ireland’s problems. I find it unreasonable to blame English and Welsh voters for these issues.

Who voted to make the GFA invalid. Brexit voters and without understanding or caring about the problem it would cause despite being told. So yes brexit votes are taking away my vote for a lasting peace in n. Ireland. I don't understand how your vote for leaving the EU is more important than my vote for the GFA.

 

[EM2]

One lesson from history is that ideology never makes good policy. The EU’s ideological wedding to these principles is one good reason for leaving in my view. They may have been a good idea once, however times change, and any governing body should demonstrate that it is responsive to the needs if its people.

Well, it is responsive to the needs of its people. Which other member states have thought that the four freedoms are a bad idea? What pressure has there been from member states to scrap any or all of them?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Why do you keep mentioning Schengen? This is irrelevant to trade. There are border controls between the UK and France (i.e. no Schengen) but there is a customs union between the UK and France so there is frictionless trade between them. However, the UK no longer wants a customs union between the UK and the EU, which means there will no longer be frictionless trade between the UK and France, and between the UK and the Republic of Ireland. But frictionless trade is essential between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and also between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Can't see how that's possible without a customs union between the UK and Ireland, and therefore between the UK and the EU.

no you are wrong... Britain wanted to curtail freedom of movement of people... the EU said we couldn't do that AND stay in the customs union... therefore the EU are the ones that created the problem... as to mentioning Schengen... how is it irrelevant when talking about border controls or lack thereof when the whole of the Schengen agreement is about that very thing!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Well, it is responsive to the needs of its people. Which other member states have thought that the four freedoms are a bad idea? What pressure has there been from member states to scrap any or all of them?

IIRC at the height of the migrant crisis the whole Schengen agreement came quite close to collapse... and in fact IIRC some temporary {are they still there} fences and border controls were erected between certain member states...

 

[radamfi]

no you are wrong... Britain wanted to curtail freedom of movement of people... the EU said we couldn't do that AND stay in the customs union... therefore the EU are the ones that created the problem... as to mentioning Schengen... how is it irrelevant when talking about border controls or lack thereof when the whole of the Schengen agreement is about that very thing!

Before the Schengen agreement there was free movement of people and a customs union across the EEC, but there were border controls between most countries.

 

[bramling]

Who voted to make the GFA invalid. Brexit voters and without understanding or caring about the problem it would cause despite being told. So yes brexit votes are taking away my vote for a lasting peace in n. Ireland. I don't understand how your vote for leaving the EU is more important than my vote for the GFA.

Those voters didn’t vote to make the GFA invalid, they voted to leave the EU. Why should they care about Northern Ireland’s specific problem? As for being more important, the numbers tell their own story.

NI needs to find a solution to its problem. Have a hard border with ROI, or if that’s untenable than stay in the customs union and have a hard border with the rest of the U.K. It’s not that there aren’t options, but that there doesn’t seem to be an option which isn’t unacceptable to someone or other.

 

[bramling]

Well, it is responsive to the needs of its people. Which other member states have thought that the four freedoms are a bad idea? What pressure has there been from member states to scrap any or all of them?

I thought part of Cameron’s attempted renegotiation concerned freedom of movement?

 

[fowler9]

I don't see what point you're getting at...

We'll read your last paragraph from your post which I was replying to.

 

[fowler9]

a thought to ponder.. Remain supporters claim the EU is democratic and shout down any argument that it isn't.... so if the EU is such a great democratic institution why has it made leaving so difficult? why is it being so obstinate and intransigent? surely if it was such a great bastion of democracy it would be making it as easy as possible for the democratic will of the people to be enacted?

It hasn't made it difficult, we can just walk away with all previous agreements cancelled. We are being awkward.

 

[fowler9]

Those voters didn’t vote to make the GFA invalid, they voted to leave the EU. Why should they care about Northern Ireland’s specific problem? As for being more important, the numbers tell their own story.

NI needs to find a solution to its problem. Have a hard border with ROI, or if that’s untenable than stay in the customs union and have a hard border with the rest of the U.K. It’s not that there aren’t options, but that there doesn’t seem to be an option which isn’t unacceptable to someone or other.

Northern Ireland doesn't need to sort it out we do because it is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland which if you dig out your passport you will find is written on the front.

 

[bramling]

Northern Ireland doesn't need to sort it out we do because it is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland which if you dig out your passport you will find is written on the front.

I’m sure “we” could sort it out. The difficulty seems to be finding a solution which one or other side in NI don’t object to.

 

[Starmill]

I genuinely sympathise with these issues, however they are Northern Ireland’s problems. I find it unreasonable to blame English and Welsh voters for these issues.

The people of Northern Ireland are the people of our country. Those of us who live in England are just as responsible for the citizens of Northern Ireland and vice versa as those of us who live in Manchester are responsible for Londoners, and vice versa.

There is no such thing as "Northern Ireland's problems", only the UK's problems. It's that, or Northern Ireland no longer being a part of the UK, of course.

I’m sure “we” could sort it out. The difficulty seems to be finding a solution which one or other side in NI don’t object to.

This is also not difficult. The whole UK could leave the EU, and retain membership of the Customs Union and Single Market. This would present no issues over borders around Northern Ireland.

 

[EM2]

I thought part of Cameron’s attempted renegotiation concerned freedom of movement?

Yes, for the UK. The other member states seem generally happy with the four freedoms.

 

[AlterEgo]

The truth is I, like most people in Great Britain probably, at the time was only interested in the GFA in as much as it brought peace...not bothering to listen to all the details and waffle...

but there's a land border between NI and Ireland. Will that cause a problem? That depends...is Ireland in Schengen?

Your contributions are based on very limited knowledge and understanding. I recommend you take the time to learn something of the subject matter before forming an opinion about it.

I’m genuinely surprised to learn from this thread that you aren’t a teenager.

 

[AlterEgo]

Those voters didn’t vote to make the GFA invalid, they voted to leave the EU. Why should they care about Northern Ireland’s specific problem? As for being more important, the numbers tell their own story.

NI needs to find a solution to its problem.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK.

It is up to the UK to find the solution to Northern Ireland’s problem. The border and security is not a devolved matter.

 

[northwichcat]

what? England are responsible for creating this problem? how exactly? by invading Ireland a thousand years ago? seriously though... if it was the EU that insisted that free movement of goods and services couldn't be separated from free movement of people.. and in reality it is the free movement of people that would cause the biggest issues without a deal or backstop.... then surely it is EU intransigence that has created the problem? of course if you've got a convincing argument as to why you think the EU aren't responsible for a result down to their own action/ decision then I'd love to hear it....

Most of the people of British descent in Northern Ireland are of Scottish decent not English decent. It was that group of people who prevented all of Ireland being handed back. The Brits had no issue with handing back the key port town of Queenstown to the Irish - for them to restore the town's original name of Cobh - which would have been far more useful to Britain to have control of than most NI towns.

 

[Geezertronic]

Who voted to make the GFA invalid. Brexit voters and without understanding or caring about the problem it would cause despite being told. So yes brexit votes are taking away my vote for a lasting peace in n. Ireland. I don't understand how your vote for leaving the EU is more important than my vote for the GFA.

I hope you are directing your contempt at the 44.22% of the voting Northern Ireland electorate who also voted Leave. They also had an opinion that is just as important as yours. Northern Ireland also had the lowest turnout of the UK states which wouldn't have made a lot of difference to the end result but could have made it closer had the turnout been more, or if more people in NI shared your opinion

 

[northwichcat]

I hope you are directing your contempt at the 44.22% of the voting Northern Ireland electorate who also voted Leave. They also had an opinion that is just as important as yours. Northern Ireland also had the lowest turnout of the UK states which wouldn't have made a lot of difference to the end result but could have made it closer had the turnout been more, or if more people in NI shared your opinion

Using your logic the 48.2% of the UK population as a whole voting remain means hard Brexit/no deal Brexit mustn't happen because the voice of the 48.2% must be heard as well. Additionally, the voices of those in NI who the DUP don't represent must be heard.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The point is simple really... Ireland isn't part of the Schengen area... so presumably checks passports of all who pass through it's ports and airports....so why is the border between NI and Ireland such a big issue? It just doesn't make sense.... no-one... not even the most ardent Brexiteer has ever seriously argued that we don't want to trade with Europe... in fact I remember it said time and again that we didn't want to withdraw from free movement of goods.... The problem was a simple one... the EU said that to have free movement of goods we HAD to accept free movement of people.... so stalemate... and because goods had been irretrievably paired to people by the EU there came a certain problem about a certain border.... so tell me all you hatemongers who are trolling me for daring to have a different opinion to them.... who is responsible for the mess?

Certainly not those of us who, in good faith, voted with our own consciences for Brexit... try turning your ire on the intransigent EU who you love so much... it is they that created the problem that didn't need to be there....

Well the UK are the ones who want to leave the EU, so it is the UK who is responsible. Simple as that really.

As for why Ireland is such a big issue, as it seems you are not capable of reading, I will list them again:

1. The NI border is essentially an open border thanks to the GFA.
2. Any attempts to introduce a harder border would be unwise at best, and could potentially flare up tensions in the area at worse.
3. Such an open border between an EU country and a non EU country does not exist anywhere else in the same way as the NI border (there are similar "no infrastructure" borders, but as far as I know, none with the same freedoms as the NI border gives - e.g. any citizen the ability to live, work in the other country with need for any permission or application, the ability to access to education, healthcare, welfare in the other country, the right to vote in the other country etc).
4. Moving onto goods and services, because of the CTA and the history of the area, along with the freedoms provided (see people 3), there is a large market in moving goods and services between NI and Ireland. So large, that having to carry out inspections or checks on these is not going to be possible, at least not possible until we build the required infrastructure. And even with the infrastructure in place, it would be very disruptive to the areas concerned.
5. The easy solution would be for the UK to stay in the single market and customs union, accepting freedom of movement of people, goods and services with the EU and accepting EU regulations, but that is not acceptable to many leavers (despite claims that this would be an option by them before the vote).
6. The other two easy solutions (hard border between UK and NI, or hard border between NI and Ireland) just won't happen because of political reasons (see point 2).
7. So we are left with having to create another way of dealing with the border. One that hasn't been done before. In less than 5 months. That is the reason for the transition period and the backstop.
8. I am probably missing some other bits, but that should cover the basics.

I would not trust Blair to walk my dog.
Just remember all, he was after the top job in the EU when he left the commons. That says it all about his position.

And yet he still raised the issue beforehand, despite the initial claim earlier in the thread that nobody raised it.

and as I have also pointed out...the Swiss border is as frictionless as it can be... cars straight through {as long as they've paid their Swiss road tax} lorries and coaches 5 mins paperwork... no customs checks... no passport controls... so yes the EU can manage frictionless borders between itself and outside nations if it chooses to.. all your argument does is show that the EU chose, in this instance, to play hardball, be difficult and punish us for daring to want to leave!

You may want to do a bit of research.
For people again you are mostly right.
But for goods? You may want to look up the lorry queues that can build up etc.
And that is before you realise that the only reason Switzerland has as efficient borders as it does is because it accepts the EU's regulations when it comes to goods and services, something which many Brexiteer's seem unable to accept.

nah... I think I'll go by my own personal experiences of crossing the borders regularly as a coach driver thankyou... now please retract your accusation that I'm talking rubbish AND STOP TROLLING ME!

Coach driving is again about people and not goods. Very different.

a thought to ponder.. Remain supporters claim the EU is democratic and shout down any argument that it isn't.... so if the EU is such a great democratic institution why has it made leaving so difficult? why is it being so obstinate and intransigent? surely if it was such a great bastion of democracy it would be making it as easy as possible for the democratic will of the people to be enacted?

The EU is not making anything difficult. We are the ones who voted to leave. If we want to we can just leave without a deal. So in terms of the EU, they are making it as easy as possible for us to leave.

but if they have worked for one year they get residency right? then what?

No. Totally incorrect.

no you are wrong... Britain wanted to curtail freedom of movement of people... the EU said we couldn't do that AND stay in the customs union... therefore the EU are the ones that created the problem... as to mentioning Schengen... how is it irrelevant when talking about border controls or lack thereof when the whole of the Schengen agreement is about that very thing!

We were told before the vote that we couldn't separate freedom of movement of people and of goods. That was part of what you lot called "project fear" and decided to ignore. And even if you didn't decide to ignore it, you can't seriously complain about a group setting rules for a member to abide by if they want to be part of that group?

Those voters didn’t vote to make the GFA invalid, they voted to leave the EU. Why should they care about Northern Ireland’s specific problem? As for being more important, the numbers tell their own story.

NI needs to find a solution to its problem. Have a hard border with ROI, or if that’s untenable than stay in the customs union and have a hard border with the rest of the U.K. It’s not that there aren’t options, but that there doesn’t seem to be an option which isn’t unacceptable to someone or other.

NI is part of the UK, and as border and foreign relations issues are handled by Westminster and are not devolved, I have no idea why you expect NI to solve those problems when they don't even have the legal or political ability to. As for why should anyone else care about NI - well it is part of our country isn't it?

 

[Groningen]

Many in the media in the Netherlands respect Theresa May very much. But they all think that the December 11, 2018 vote will be here Waterloo. Not only Conservatives, but also Labour find the recent agreement a bad deal. We (in the Netherlands) think that it will be a hard Brexit or it must be a miracle!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Many in the media in the Netherlands respect Theresa May very much. But they all think that the December 11, 2018 vote will be here Waterloo. Not only Conservatives, but also Labour find the recent agreement a bad deal. We (in the Netherlands) think that it will be a hard Brexit or it must be a miracle!

as you are a non- Brit I would value your opinion on the UK's wishing to have full control of it's borders and destiny? Do fellow EU countries understand why we don't want to become part of what will eventually be the United States of Europe

 

[Groningen]

All trade in the UK will be internal? There will be no trade to the EU?! Well distances to getting your goods will improve some what. Transportation will be free of course. Think again.

 

[WelshBluebird]

as you are a non- Brit I would value your opinion on the UK's wishing to have full control of it's borders and destiny? Do fellow EU countries understand why we don't want to become part of what will eventually be the United States of Europe

Considering that even as EU members we didn't do all we could to have as much control over our borders and destiny as we could have, I am very cynical whenever someone trots out that excuse for Brexit. Surely if that was so important we would have done everything we could have whilst in the EU? But we didn't.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Considering that even as EU members we didn't do all we could to have as much control over our borders and destiny as we could have, I am very cynical whenever someone trots out that excuse for Brexit. Surely if that was so important we would have done everything we could have whilst in the EU? But we didn't.

Excuse me... it doesn't matter what the UK could or could not have done on the issue... I was asking a non Brit for their opinion on the British mindset regarding the issue... seemed to me a perfectly fair and sensible enquiry to me...

 

[Geezertronic]

Using your logic the 48.2% of the UK population as a whole voting remain means hard Brexit/no deal Brexit mustn't happen because the voice of the 48.2% must be heard as well. Additionally, the voices of those in NI who the DUP don't represent must be heard.

No, you have misread my post. If nidave wants to blame somebody for the result of the referendum, he should also be blaming those in his own country for voting Leave as they had the same information as everyone else and one would assume share the same localised concerns