EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[mmh]

We were told before the vote that we couldn't separate freedom of movement of people and of goods. That was part of what you lot called "project fear" and decided to ignore.

Well that was yet another reason to leave. The EU quite happily divides the supposedly indivisible freedoms when it suits with a large array of special arrangements, so that's impossible in some cases but not others? Not that I necessarily think, as time has gone on, that we should be particularly bothered.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Excuse me... it doesn't matter what the UK could or could not have done on the issue... I was asking a non Brit for their opinion on the British mindset regarding the issue... seemed to me a perfectly fair and sensible enquiry to me...

It is a reasonable question if we had done what we could to before deciding to leave.
But we didn't.
I just find it very odd that if the issue is so important, why didn't we take any steps before deciding on the "nuclear" option of leaving?

Well that was yet another reason to leave. The EU quite happily divides the supposedly indivisible freedoms when it suits with a large array of special arrangements, so that's impossible in some cases but not others? Not that I necessarily think, as time has gone on, that we should be particularly bothered.

If you accept that was known prior to the vote then yes, if that upsets you it is a reason to vote to leave.

What my reply was mainly about was:

• The fact this was known about before the vote. The EU said so. Anyone who did any research at all knew that would be the case. And yet we have someone in this thread who seems to be surprised by it.
• The fact that a group such as the EU making the rules by which its members have to abide is not at all surprising, or wrong, and that anyone complaining about the fact it can do so seems to have a rather peculiar thought process. By all means complain about the specific rules, but to whinge about the EU being able to decide what it wants for the best of its members is a bit of a weird one to me!
• The fact that some of the things that were warned by various groups before the vote were ignored by leavers and called "project fear". Yet when some of those things are brought up now, certain people in this thread seem to have a short memory and claim that those things weren't mentioned at all.

 

[bramling]

NI is part of the UK, and as border and foreign relations issues are handled by Westminster and are not devolved, I have no idea why you expect NI to solve those problems when they don't even have the legal or political ability to. As for why should anyone else care about NI - well it is part of our country isn't it?

If NI is part of the UK then quite simply it should have a hard border with ROI.

As far as I'm concerned it's tough luck that NI appears to want a special arrangement which is proving incompatible with the ROI, or specifically ROI's membership of the EU.

 

[WelshBluebird]

If NI is part of the UK then quite simply it should have a hard border with ROI.

As far as I'm concerned it's tough luck that NI appears to want a special arrangement which is proving incompatible with the ROI, or specifically ROI's membership of the EU.

It wasn't an issue until the UK (well, England and Wales) decided to leave the EU, so not sure why it should be up to NI or the ROI to sort it out.
As for having a hard border - good luck! For one that would greatly reduce the rights of British and Irish citizens (Brexiteer's seem to really like doing that it it seems!) and more importantly it would put the lasting peace that the GFA set up at risk.

 

[bramling]

It wasn't an issue until the UK (well, England and Wales) decided to leave the EU, so not sure why it should be up to NI or the ROI to sort it out.
As for having a hard border - good luck! For one that would greatly reduce the rights of British and Irish citizens (Brexiteer's seem to really like doing that it it seems!) and more importantly it would put the lasting peace that the GFA set up at risk.

Rightly or wrongly, none of the above is my problem. I'd suggest that many elsewhere in the UK would take a similar view.

If both sides of the dividing line value the lack of a hard border, then I'm sure few elsewhere in the UK would object to a special arrangement where NI aligns itself more towards the ROI with respect to things like the customs union - which from what we're hearing seems to be something amenable to the EU. Naturally there's a problem with that as some elements of NI find that objectionable.

Eventually patience will run out over this, especially if the level of spending in NI relative to other parts of the UK becomes general conversation.

 

[greyman42]

So the rest of the country (England and yes your right Wales) are not involved in the current clusterf%ck. That's a bit revisionist. Remind me who voted to leave the EU and cause the current problems with the gfa. It wasn't n. Ireland. It was the fine people of England (and Wales).

People from all four countries voted to leave the EU.

 

[Ianno87]

Rightly or wrongly, none of the above is my problem. I'd suggest that many elsewhere in the UK would take a similar view.

Potential resurrection of Civil War on UK soil is 'not your problem'?!

Suggest you go to Belfast yourself, see the scars of conflict past, and reconsider your position.

 

[MikeWh]

Rightly or wrongly, none of the above is my problem. I'd suggest that many elsewhere in the UK would take a similar view.

It could be your problem if the troubles return to the mainland, especially London.

It's all gone now, of course, but did you know the reason why there was no gents on P3/4 at London Bridge?

 

[EM2]

If NI is part of the UK then quite simply it should have a hard border with ROI.

But the UK Government says it doesn't want a hard border. So, if the UK doesn't want one, and the EU doesn't want one why should there be one?

 

[EM2]

If both sides of the dividing line value the lack of a hard border, then I'm sure few elsewhere in the UK would object to a special arrangement where NI aligns itself more towards the ROI with respect to things like the customs union - which from what we're hearing seems to be something amenable to the EU.

But not amenable to the UK Government, who refuse to allow NI to have different customs arrangements to the rest of the UK.

 

[greyman42]

But not amenable to the UK Government, who refuse to allow NI to have different customs arrangements to the rest of the UK.

Do N. Ireland want a different customs arrangement?

 

[nidave]

I hope you never have to rely on others for anything bramling. Your lack of concern for your fellow people is sad. Actually selfish in the extreme. Burning bridges I think it's called.

 

[EM2]

The EU quite happily divides the supposedly indivisible freedoms when it suits with a large array of special arrangements

Such as?

 

[AM9]

I hope you never have to rely on others for anything bramling. Your lack of concern for your fellow people is sad. Actually selfish in the extreme. Burning bridges I think it's called.

Actually looking at the posts from the most voiciferous leaver posters here it seems to be a common theme. Hence the frequent "you lost, get over it!" catcalling. It's a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater - on steroids!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

well on BBC news tonight TM was asked 2 straight "yes or no" questions...

1. Do you have a plan B?
2. Is this the best deal possible for Wales?

Guess what? both questions were answered with a load of meaningless waffle and piffle... she's hardly selling the deal is she? Seems to me that even she thinks the agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on

 

[HH]

as you are a non- Brit I would value your opinion on the UK's wishing to have full control of it's borders and destiny? Do fellow EU countries understand why we don't want to become part of what will eventually be the United States of Europe

What do you mean "we", Kemo Sabe?

 

[HH]

well on BBC news tonight TM was asked 2 straight "yes or no" questions...

1. Do you have a plan B?
2. Is this the best deal possible for Wales?

Guess what? both questions were answered with a load of meaningless waffle and piffle... she's hardly selling the deal is she? Seems to me that even she thinks the agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on

No-one else has come up with a plan, just a few trite slogans. It's far easier to throw brickbats from the sidelines than it is to actually do something, as a succession of arrogant male Brexiteers have found out (and been found out!). At least May has some balls - unlike Boris, Dominic, David, etc.

 

[thejuggler]

The question which isn't been asked to any extent is the one children always ask. Why?

Why was this deal the best which could be achieved?
Why is this better than no deal?
Why did you have to agree what you did re NI/Gib etc

At the moment she is still in spin answers mode, 'why' is generally a killer as it can be followed with another 'why' question based on the answer given and hopefully get an answer which allows her to sell the idea.

 

[fowler9]

I just wanted to make a few points. The EU is not stopping us from leaving. May got about the best deal anyone could hope for given everyones conflicting demands. The EU is nothing like the Third Reich. We won world war two with the help of the increasingly isolationist US, the increasingly meaningless Commonwealth and loads of people from other European countries and an increasingly narky Russia. Finally remainers do not have to explain what they would have done better. What exactly were the Brexit ministers doing while all this went on? I suspect the realised that if they wanted to leave there was simply no deal as good as what we already had so we would have to bomb out in order to Brexit which would in all honesty be a disaster.

 

[bramling]

I hope you never have to rely on others for anything bramling. Your lack of concern for your fellow people is sad. Actually selfish in the extreme. Burning bridges I think it's called.

I’d say it’s sadder that it doesn’t take long with Northern Irish affairs before the threat of violence raises its head above the parapet, and selfish that the implication is that because (a minority of the population of) six counties can’t live in harmony with each other then 16 million people elsewhere in the U.K. should have voted differently in order to accommodate the bizarre NI situation.

 

[bramling]

No-one else has come up with a plan, just a few trite slogans. It's far easier to throw brickbats from the sidelines than it is to actually do something, as a succession of arrogant male Brexiteers have found out (and been found out!). At least May has some balls - unlike Boris, Dominic, David, etc.

I’d agree that it’s to May’s credit that she has some balls (in the proverbial sense of course), however my concern is that she’s not a good influencer. If she couldnt win an election which arguably should have been a gift, then was she really the best person to be influencing others in the negotiation process? In all honesty I don’t know the answer to that, however it seems the answer is probably no. One does also wonder just how much freedom was given to the likes of Davis and Raab.

 

[Esker-pades]

The people on this thread who still fail to grasp how potentially serious a botched solution to the Ireland/Northern Ireland border is amazing. However, given that brainboxes* such as Nadine Dorres describe it as a non-issue or a red-herring, I can't blame anyone here.

*Used sarcastically

 

[fowler9]

I’d say it’s sadder that it doesn’t take long with Northern Irish affairs before the threat of violence raises its head above the parapet, and selfish that the implication is that because (a minority of the population of) six counties can’t live in harmony with each other then 16 million people elsewhere in the U.K. should have voted differently in order to accommodate the bizarre NI situation.

Plenty of people in England and Scotland in the Orange Lodge get all funny about it during marching season. Let's not pretend it is just the good folk of Northern Ireland. Brexit is at least in part accommodating the lunatic fringe such as UKIP and the EDL .

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Plenty of people in England and Scotland in the Orange Lodge get all funny about it during marching season. Let's not pretend it is just the good folk of Northern Ireland. Brexit is at least in part accommodating the lunatic fringe such as UKIP and the EDL .

There was once a time, way back in 1940, that Churchill offered a United Ireland as a British move to pander to such aspirations in Eire, if Eire were to join the war against Germany in WWII, so it seems nothing was firmly cast in stone less than a quarter of century after Eire became a nation in its own right.

Talk of the Orange Lodge and the seemingly never-ending link to the House of Orange shown during the "marching season", why cannot Northern Ireland be linked to the Netherlands on matters concerning the EU?

 

[SteveP29]

Britain wanted to curtail freedom of movement of people

So the whole thing WAS about immigration and self entitlement, selfishness and arrogance

 

[SteveP29]

The EU quite happily divides the supposedly indivisible freedoms when it suits with a large array of special arrangements

What are these special arrangements, examples please

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

So the whole thing WAS about immigration and self entitlement, selfishness and arrogance

how is wanting to protect the sovereignty of the country you live in "self entitled, selfish and arrogant"? seriously, don't take a few words out of context to try and bolster your own narrow intransigent views... it does neither you nor your argument any good....

 

[fowler9]

how is wanting to protect the sovereignty of the country you live in "self entitled, selfish and arrogant"? seriously, don't take a few words out of context to try and bolster your own narrow intransigent views... it does neither you nor your argument any good....

And you just threw sovereignty in there when Steve never mentioned it. Are you saying you don't have narrow intransigent views?

 

[SteveP29]

how is wanting to protect the sovereignty of the country you live in "self entitled, selfish and arrogant"? seriously, don't take a few words out of context to try and bolster your own narrow intransigent views... it does neither you nor your argument any good....

You seem to forget that Gina Miller went to court and it was agreed that the UK was already sovereign.
That the governments of the time (both Labour and Conservative) declined to implement a law they had freely available to them to restrict immigration that would have protected your version of sovereignty is again, as you've been told several times, is the fault of the UK government, NOT the EU.
I suppose you agree with the theory that if the UK restricts movement of people into this country, then other countries can quite rightly restrict your entry into their country.
Again, why should British people be given carte blanche to travel all over the world to work and live and better themselves, yet people from other countries can't come to the UK to better themselves?
That's 2 faced,
That's arrogant,
That's selfish.

Your argument hasn't been any good all through the last couple of weeks either, you keep getting your arse handed to you on a plate, yet like a bad curry, you keep repeating

 

[ALAN BYRNE]

Hey, as the sticker on the back of my cars says, 'Leave won' ; just a shame that woman's cocked the whole thing up!!!!!!!