Virgin weekend first

[Starmill]

Does sound like a mistake

No it doesn't. I fail to understand why everyone is finding this so challenging. It's like you've never received an email from them with a special offer?

 

[Westcoast-ting]

What on earth are you talking about.

The customer has been sent an email offering them a First Class upgrade on the journey they've booked. There is no difficulty in this whatsoever. Special offers by email are hardly unusual? VT and LNER have been known to send these frequently to customers who've booked with them, to promote goodwill, to generate some revenue and to increase the number of standard class seats available on their most heavily loaded trains. It's a win all round. It really does not require this level of discussion.

Sorry if I have misunderstood, the thread is about being offered a upgrade at a price different than advertised at booking offices and on board.

I believe the post above says the fare is £25 from carslile to Euston but because their is a change at Crewe they have been offered the £15 upgrade.

I clarified a earlier point that when the tickets arrive they should state between which stations the upgrades are valid.

 

[Starmill]

Sorry if I have misunderstood, the thread is about being offered a upgrade at a price different than advertised at booking offices and on board.

Correct. What's unusual about that? I've been sent emails by VT offering me a First Class upgrade on a weekday for £50? I've seen them on LNER too.

I clarified a earlier point that when the tickets arrive they should state between which stations the upgrades are valid.

Yeah they'll say the stations between which the customer has booked their ticket on them. The original poster tells us this is Carlisle to London. Again if we are having such difficulty with this then I'm worried.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

No it doesn't. I fail to understand why everyone is finding this so challenging. It's like you've never received an email from them with a special offer?

It’s not a struggle

Correct. What's unusual about that? I've been sent emails by VT offering me a First Class upgrade on a weekday for £50? I've seen them on LNER too.

I think its because as there is a change at Crewe the upgrade offer of £15.00 would be the correct upgrade price from there.

So I clarified and said if the upgrade is £15.00 from carslile to eus then happy days.

If the upgrade arrives and states Crewe to Euston because of the change then I wouldn’t risk saying it’s valid from carslile.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

Hey starmill,

There is a fare for sale called the weekday upgrade at £50 ( certain routes ) available for sale onboard but it’s not agreed with the unions, this does mean that some sell it some dont.

I’ve never seen a weekend upgrade sold at a price different than the face value, so yes in my experience I believe it’s a mistake

 

[BlueFox]

It's like you've never received an email from them with a special offer?

There's nothing in the email to say its a special offer. If it was, they would have said it was a special offer and that I had to show my email on board to get the special price. Its identical to one I've previously received that said £25, and that wasn't a special offer either. But that one was Carlisle to Euston direct, rather than with a change at Crewe.


I travelled yesterday, in standard class. But it's be interested to know if anyone has tried to get a cheap upgrade as a result of one of these emails.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

There's nothing in the email to say its a special offer. If it was, they would have said it was a special offer and that I had to show my email on board to get the special price. Its identical to one I've previously received that said £25, and that wasn't a special offer either. But that one was Carlisle to Euston direct, rather than with a change at Crewe.


I travelled yesterday, in standard class. But it's be interested to know if anyone has tried to get a cheap upgrade as a result of one of these emails.

I think starmill has misunderstood the possibility that a error has occurred.

In my opinion he has jumped in with both feet before considering all the facts.

 

[Starmill]

There's nothing in the email to say its a special offer.

Surely this goes without saying? Why email you otherwise!?

As it happens, the train manager was offering to upgrade everyone to First Class for £10 on my journey on VT today.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

Surely this goes without saying? Why email you otherwise!?

As it happens, the train manager was offering to upgrade everyone to First Class for £10 on my journey on VT today.

The post is considering the posibility that due to a change at Crewe the upgrade price is wrong !!!

 

[Starmill]

I think starmill has misunderstood the possibility that a error has occurred.

If an error had occurred then nobody would know? You would just get the upgrade for the price stated in the email and that's that, everyone happy? It's so typical of certain people on this forum to think that there's a need to worry about whether or not a train company has made a mistake in the terms they've offered you. There isn't and never should be, within reason (for example if they offered you an upgrade for £0.15, then you might reasonably be expected to know it was a mistake).

This sort of unnecessary fussing all comes down to an attitude that is less customer focused than it should be.

 

[BlueFox]

Surely this goes without saying? Why email you otherwise!?

When they've sent me an email saying £25, that obviously wasn't an offer, as that's the normal price.

Of course they send emails for things that aren't special offers. They do it all the time, as do most companies. They're trying make money.

 

[Starmill]

When I receive a marketing email I simply accept the deal at face value and decide if I think it's a good one based on the information I have. The idea that you should instead concern yourself with whether or not it really is a special offer in any form beyond this, including whether or not it has been offered in error, is something that next to no consumer would ever do. I would suggest this is a pretty bizarre attitude found only among industry types on this forum. If a price is offered then a customer accepts it in good faith. They do not try and do 'detective work' as you suggest, looking at other emails etc to determine if the sale was "intended" in the way it is clearly written.

 

[yorkie]

And risk a upfn for the full fare ???

Show the email, pay the fare asked, keep the receipt and take it up with customer relations.

This is incorrect; "full fare" has a specific meaning in railway ticketing terms. I assume you actually mean "full upgrade" ie. £25

Such a charge would be a breach of consumer law; the customer could choose to move back to standard and not pay anything, or they could request, and be entitled to, a refund of the additional £10 they were wrongly charged.

When they've sent me an email saying £25, that obviously wasn't an offer, as that's the normal price.

Of course they send emails for things that aren't special offers. They do it all the time, as do most companies. They're trying make money.

I received emails encouraging me to upgrade to 1st at a cheap price on the East Coast route; I can't remember if it was in 'East Coast' days or under Virgin.

I have never received an email encouraging me to purchase the normal Weekend 1st fare.

I strongly disagree with the suggestion that this is "clearly" a mistake.

It doesn't look like a mistake to me, but if it is a mistake, the company can't charge £25.

 

[alistairlees]

I don't see what's so complex about this.

You've been offered an upgrade to 1st class at the weekend for £15.00. This seems reasonable (good value, but not obviously a mistake). You are not obliged to check whether this is correct or not - and how could any normal passenger be expected to know? You should just turn up and say that, because of the email you received (which is an offer from Virgin to you), you were expecting to pay £15.00.

One of several things could then happen:
- the guard says that they understand why you believe this, and sells you the £15 upgrade (allowing you to stay on the train for the full distance, if it is established that the upgrade for £15 is only for part of the journey)
- the guard charges you £25, and you decide to pay this; it's then up to you if you would like to ask Virgin for the £10 difference afterwards
- the guard charges you £25, and you decide not to pay this; you move to Standard Class (no-one's going to issue a penalty under these circumstances, surely? I don't see what the reason would be.). You could complain afterwards, of course

That's it really. Not that complex. Except to members of the forum.

 

[ooo]

There is a fare for sale called the weekday upgrade at £50 ( certain routes ) available for sale onboard but it’s not agreed with the unions, this does mean that some sell it some dont.

Why would the unions need to approve a special offer?

 

[Westcoast-ting]

Ohh fair point !

Couldn’t I charge the difference between the std and 1st fare ? SOS - FOS

 

[Starmill]

I’ve never seen a weekend upgrade sold at a price different than the face value, so yes in my experience I believe it’s a mistake

I used on train weekend first earlier today for Preston to Glasgow Central. I was charged £10.

 

[yorkie]

I don't see what's so complex about this.

You've been offered an upgrade to 1st class at the weekend for £15.00. This seems reasonable (good value, but not obviously a mistake). You are not obliged to check whether this is correct or not - and how could any normal passenger be expected to know? You should just turn up and say that, because of the email you received (which is an offer from Virgin to you), you were expecting to pay £15.00.

One of several things could then happen:
- the guard says that they understand why you believe this, and sells you the £15 upgrade (allowing you to stay on the train for the full distance, if it is established that the upgrade for £15 is only for part of the journey)
- the guard charges you £25, and you decide to pay this; it's then up to you if you would like to ask Virgin for the £10 difference afterwards
- the guard charges you £25, and you decide not to pay this; you move to Standard Class (no-one's going to issue a penalty under these circumstances, surely? I don't see what the reason would be.). You could complain afterwards, of course

That's it really. Not that complex. Except to members of the forum.

I completely agree with all of this, except I'd say some members of the forum!

I do think some people over-think things in an anti-passenger way based on a little knowledge. This is very dangerous.

Ohh fair point !

Couldn’t I charge the difference between the std and 1st fare ? SOS - FOS

Not on a weekend!

Also, if the customer held an Anytime Single (SOS) their ticket would be valid in 1st class anyway.

Why would the unions need to approve a special offer?

This is the railway industry we are talking about. It's not like any other. Probably best not go to there in this thread.

 

[BlueFox]

Not that complex. Except to members of the forum.

And for people with anxiety problems who want to avoid the sort of conflict that this could cause.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

I completely agree with all of this, except I'd say some members of the forum!

I do think some people over-think things in an anti-passenger way based on a little knowledge. This is very dangerous.


Not on a weekend!

Also, if the customer held an Anytime Single (SOS) their ticket would be valid in 1st class anyway.

This is the railway industry we are talking about. It's not like any other. Probably best not go to there in this thread.

Ok cool, sorry yes Off Peak Single (SVS) to Anytime 1st Single (FOS)? I was taught that you can do an Unpaid Fare Notice to the first standard or first undiscounted single?

I don’t think this is over-thinking the question; it has been asked could this be from Crewe not from Carlisle?

I think it's from Crewe, you can all disagree and the only way to be sure is to see the tickets.

 

[yorkie]

Ok cool, sorry yes svs to fos ?? I was taught that you can do a upfn to the first standard or first undiscounted single ?

I don’t think this is over thought the question has been asked could this be from Crewe not from carslile !!!

I think Crewe, you can all disagree nd the only way to be sure is to see the tickets

The customer is offered an upgrade of £15 for their journey; if you believed that was a mistake your options would be to charge them nothing or charge them £15.

If you acted incorrectly and charged them £25 they would be entitled to either move back to standard or pay £25 and seek a refund and apology from the company.

If you are trying to work out what would happen if the customer refused to move and refused to pay more than £25 but you refused to accept less than £25, then the answer would be to issue a Ticket Irregularity Report (TIR) for the matter to be investigated.

And for people with anxiety problems who want to avoid the sort of conflict that this could cause.

Unfortunately the only way to be certain of avoiding conflict regarding rail ticketing matters is not to travel by rail, which isn't really an option!

My advice for anyone wishing to avoid conflict with a member of staff is to pay whatever they ask. Take a photograph of all tickets originally held/issued, and obtain evidence of any other relevant documentation, and email the company seeking the difference between the fare you expected to pay and the amount actually charged. Any decent company would give you further compensation on top.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

The customer is offered an upgrade of £15 for their journey; if you believed that was a mistake your options would be to charge them nothing or charge them £15.

If you acted incorrectly and charged them £25 they would be entitled to either move back to standard or pay £25 and seek a refund and apology from the company.

If you are trying to work out what would happen if the customer refused to move and refused to pay more than £25 but you refused to accept less than £25, then the answer would be to issue a Ticket Irregularity Report (TIR) for the matter to be investigated.

Ok thanks.

I’m thanks I will seek clarification internally.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Such a charge would be a breach of consumer law; the customer could choose to move back to standard and not pay anything

As VT don't like rocking the boat and aren't prosecution-happy except in extreme cases, that is the most likely outcome of refusal to pay the supplement. However, a First Class fare (be that an upgrade or an excess) is technically due for the journey segment taken so far in First Class prior to the guard reaching you.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

In retrospect it just goes to show how a simple upgrade message can cause such a difference of opinion.

It is clear though if the upgrade appears not be from carslile to London then pay any fare due and contest it at a later date to avoid any conflict on board

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a fare for sale called the weekday upgrade at £50 ( certain routes ) available for sale onboard but it’s not agreed with the unions, this does mean that some sell it some dont.

What flows is that for? I can think of cases where I'd like to purchase one of those - most notably going north from MKC in the evening "peak" when the Advances are outrageously priced.

I don't entirely understand why fares would need agreeing with the Unions, though. If that's the fare, that's the fare - passengers are entitled to purchase it. I can't however find it on brfares.com anywhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I used on train weekend first earlier today for Preston to Glasgow Central. I was charged £10.

Strange, that one should be £15. Perhaps he had his ticket machine set up incorrectly. Or was that with some sort of Railcard discount? Didn't think they discounted.

Could you scan the ticket and post it here?

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=PRE&dest=GLC&grpd=0433&rte=474&tkt=VWU

 

[Westcoast-ting]

I dont think their is a mkc - XX flow at the moment to my knowledge, they are all eus originating or terminating.

All the flows I’ve seen are only as far as Preston northbound but I can’t see an issue selling a Euston- Preston weekday upgrade to a mkc boarder.

VT have already implemented FSS flows on the Euston - preston route. Plans are in place to make first class travel cheap from advances on these flows ! Next time you travel ask for a weekday upgrade from euston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah they'll say the stations between which the customer has booked their ticket on them. The original poster tells us this is Carlisle to London. Again if we are having such difficulty with this then I'm worried.

Are you thinking this is an online purchased upgrade (as VTWC offer on Pendolinos but not Voyagers - i.e. an Off Peak Single with Weekend First bundled with it, which is shown on their website as First Class Off Peak if it's cheaper than the actual First Class Off Peak if there is one)? FWIW I travelled on one of these today - I quite like that you can reserve Seat 14 if it's available - Pendolinos really need more single seats!

If it was, this would be much more clear cut.

It's not, it's an offer to purchase on the day.

 

[yorkie]

As VT don't like rocking the boat and aren't prosecution-happy except in extreme cases, that is the most likely outcome of refusal to pay the supplement. However, a First Class fare (be that an upgrade or an excess) is technically due for the journey segment taken so far in First Class prior to the guard reaching you.

The fare due would be £15 for the whole journey. If the company chooses not to honour that; the customer is willing and able to pay £15, but the company refuses to accept it, then it is difficult for them to argue that any fare is due if the passenger returns to standard at that point. I see absolutely no contractual basis for your claim.

Are you thinking this is an online purchased upgrade (as VTWC offer on Pendolinos but not Voyagers - i.e. an Off Peak Single with Weekend First bundled with it, which is shown on their website as First Class Off Peak if it's cheaper than the actual First Class Off Peak if there is one)? FWIW I travelled on one of these today - I quite like that you can reserve Seat 14 if it's available - Pendolinos really need more single seats!

If it was, this would be much more clear cut.

It's not, it's an offer to purchase on the day.

It is an offer to purchase an upgrade for £15 on the day for the customers journey. The customer already has the ticket for their journey.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Strange, that one should be £15. Perhaps he had his ticket machine set up incorrectly. Or was that with some sort of Railcard discount? Didn't think they discounted.

Could you scan the ticket and post it here?

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=PRE&dest=GLC&grpd=0433&rte=474&tkt=VWU

He didn't have anything set up incorrectly; he simply sold the upgrade from Carlisle! As a matter of customer service (presumably), he was charging everyone a flat upgrade of £10, regardless of how far they had travelled. He clearly saw tickets from further afield, but didn't mind. It's a fair enough balance: there was significant disruption due to a train failure and other problems.