Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[Senex]

I'd assumed that the Church's boundaries dated back thousands of years, rather than being subject to modern management reorganisations !

Well, in the North of England you had Carlisle a little smaller than it is now, Durham covering from the Tees right up to the Scottish border except for the area around Hexham which was in York, and York itself, extending from the Tees down to the Humber and then further south to take in Nottinghamshire and extending west to the Pennines in its southern part and right across to the west coast between the Ribble at Preston and the Derwent at Workington in its northern part. (South of this and west of the Pennines was part of Lichfield, in the Canterbury Province.)

 

[yorksrob]

Well, in the North of England you had Carlisle a little smaller than it is now, Durham covering from the Tees right up to the Scottish border except for the area around Hexham which was in York, and York itself, extending from the Tees down to the Humber and then further south to take in Nottinghamshire and extending west to the Pennines in its southern part and right across to the west coast between the Ribble at Preston and the Derwent at Workington in its northern part. (South of this and west of the Pennines was part of Lichfield, in the Canterbury Province.)

A pre-industrial type of structure would seem fitting somehow.

 

[Ken H]

Well, in the North of England you had Carlisle a little smaller than it is now, Durham covering from the Tees right up to the Scottish border except for the area around Hexham which was in York, and York itself, extending from the Tees down to the Humber and then further south to take in Nottinghamshire and extending west to the Pennines in its southern part and right across to the west coast between the Ribble at Preston and the Derwent at Workington in its northern part. (South of this and west of the Pennines was part of Lichfield, in the Canterbury Province.)

Part of Ripon came from the old Chester diocese. Notably the Richmond area which included Boroughbridge!

 

[xotGD]

I appear to have stumbled onto churchforums.co.uk

 

[Halifaxlad]

As others have said, I too have not seen any reason why Standedge would be so difficult (compared to other long Victorian era tunnels). Sure the logistics of getting equipment to the installation site can be tedious meaning that a full blockage for several weeks is much more preferable than overnights or just weekends.
I believe a more difficult thing to overcome is the location of main access to residential properties at OHLE height close to Mossley. Any large wall or 'tunnel' has to take into account residents needs and rights to maintain their properties by use of long ladders etc. On solution could be to lower the track by two metres through the affected area and cover. To do this you would then need 200 metres of lowered level track at the Stalybridge end (in place of the 1:100 gradient), and then 400 metres of lowered track at (1:75) to the East to regain the original track height. Yes you could also have just 200 metres but it would be at 1:50 instead. Mossley station would have to be rebuilt at a lower too! This would take much much longer than any blockade of Standage, although it would make sense to do the works at the same time!

I believe the complication regarding lowering the tracks through Standedge is the small issue of the longest canal tunnel in Britain and possibly the world. The obvious solution is to fill it in and cut the Huddersfield Narrow Canal in two!

I should point out that they're is even a visitor center dedicated to it, you can even go for a ride on a boat through it should you so wish to see the inside.

According to Pennine Waterways "The tunnel entrance at Diggle was extended outwards by 200 yards in 1894 to allow additional railway tracks to be constructed over the line of the canal."

http://www.penninewaterways.co.uk/huddersfield/standedge3.htm

 

[Ploughman]

There is a link, Honest.

The midpoint crossover in the old single bores is called "The Cathedral"

Mind you it is often used as a Black Alter.

 

[AndrewE]

I believe the complication regarding lowering the tracks through Standedge is the small issue of the longest canal tunnel in Britain and possibly the world. The obvious solution is to fill it in and cut the Huddersfield Narrow Canal in two!

I should point out that they're is even a visitor center dedicated to it, you can even go for a ride on a boat through it should you so wish to see the inside.

According to Pennine Waterways "The tunnel entrance at Diggle was extended outwards by 200 yards in 1894 to allow additional railway tracks to be constructed over the line of the canal."

http://www.penninewaterways.co.uk/huddersfield/standedge3.htm

The potential track lowering is a short length at Mossley - but it is already in a solid rock cutting. It's worth a ride oiut to see the houses with their front doors opening on to a narrow path right up against the railway boundary fence.
The tunnels at Standedge are perfectly good as they are, and I don't remember anyone ever suggesting that they might need any track lowering for clearance purposes.

 

[Ken H]

The potential track lowering is a short length at Mossley - but it is already in a solid rock cutting. It's worth a ride oiut to see the houses with their front doors opening on to a narrow path right up against the railway boundary fence.
The tunnels at Standedge are perfectly good as they are, and I don't remember anyone ever suggesting that they might need any track lowering for clearance purposes.

so buy the houses. they are not that valuable - about £125k according to Zoopla. redevelop as flats so there is no rear access. or cage in the rear access.

 

[CdBrux]

Or spend the money delivering improvements of other sorts that would actually make a bigger difference to capacity / journey times. As we know electrification does not apparently do much in that regard in this instant

 

[yorksrob]

Or spend the money delivering improvements of other sorts that would actually make a bigger difference to capacity / journey times. As we know electrification does not apparently do much in that regard in this instant

We need to go with whatever is most likely to result in 10/12 carriage trains between Manchester and Leeds. Electrification is most likely to resultin that.

 

[Halifaxlad]

We need to go with whatever is most likely to result in 10/12 carriage trains between Manchester and Leeds. Electrification is most likely to resultin that.

Are we forgetting that NPHR may actually go via the Calder Valley?

 

[deltic08]

You forgot St Davids!

No. we were only discussing England.

 

[deltic08]

Ripon Diocese became Ripon and Leeds in 1999
Ripon and Leeds, Wakefield and Bradford were replaced by the diocese of Leeds 2013.

Leeds doesn't even have an Anglian Cathedral yet has become a diocese.Talk about hijacking.
Land at Leeds Parish Church or laughably now Leeds Anglican Cathedral will have to be taken to widen the Leeds-Micklefield line to three or four tracks.

 

[Senex]

Part of Ripon came from the old Chester diocese. Notably the Richmond area which included Boroughbridge!

OT, but just to finish the point. Chester was created in 1541 from two archdeaconries, Chester (out of Lichfield in the Province of Canterbury) and Richmond (out of York in the Province of York). Richmond was huge, from just a few miles outside York itself right across to the west coast. Chester started life in the Canterbury Province, but was almost immediately moved to York.

 

[childwallblues]

As others have said, I too have not seen any reason why Standedge would be so difficult (compared to other long Victorian era tunnels). Sure the logistics of getting equipment to the installation site can be tedious meaning that a full blockage for several weeks is much more preferable than overnights or just weekends.

There used to be an old set of carriage sidings at Diggle.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Regarding 'Standedge', the infilling and re-boring of Farnworth Tunnel cost £20.8 million!

Working out at around £77,037.34 per meter.

Length of 'Standege' about 5,000 meters!

Cost of rebuilding 'Standege' would be approximately £385,185,185.19

Its a very rough estimate but I think it makes the point about how expensive it would be!

 

[Ploughman]

There used to be an old set of carriage sidings at Diggle.

As others have said, I too have not seen any reason why Standedge would be so difficult (compared to other long Victorian era tunnels). Sure the logistics of getting equipment to the installation site can be tedious meaning that a full blockage for several weeks is much more preferable than overnights or just weekends.
!

Artics and machines can easily get access at the West end via the old bus turning circle.
It is also possible to drive Artics through the single bore tunnels and turn round at the Marsden end.

 

[Senex]

Some of us have asked if anyone can explain just what these severe problems with Standedge are every time the topic has come up here, but there has never been a detailed reply. The two single-bore tunnels belong to the early years of the railways when there was considerable variation in the approaches to clearances, size of bore, and so on, but because they are single-line their shape presumably means there is good clearance for OLE above vehicles passing through. The twin-track tunnel of the 1880s belongs to the time when the Board of Trade was already laying down standards to be observed in new construction, and other twin-track tunnels from this later period have not posed problems for electrification. Is there something odd about Standedge? Does it lack an invert? Is it an unusual shape? Or what? It just isn't good enough for politicians to throw "the problems with Standedge Tunnel" at us whilst trying to dow down electrification without ever telling us what those problems are and how far competent engineers genuinely seem them as an obstacle.

 

[furnessvale]

Regarding 'Standedge', the infilling and re-boring of Farnworth Tunnel cost £20.8 million!

Working out at around £77,037.34 per meter.

Length of 'Standege' about 5,000 meters!

Cost of rebuilding 'Standege' would be approximately £385,185,185.19

Its a very rough estimate but I think it makes the point about how expensive it would be!

IF required is the most important omission from that sentence. Even that omits the fact that a longer tunnel would use a different (mechanised?) method, and the made up ground conditions of Farnworth would not be present.

 

[yorksrob]

Some of us have asked if anyone can explain just what these severe problems with Standedge are every time the topic has come up here, but there has never been a detailed reply. The two single-bore tunnels belong to the early years of the railways when there was considerable variation in the approaches to clearances, size of bore, and so on, but because they are single-line their shape presumably means there is good clearance for OLE above vehicles passing through. The twin-track tunnel of the 1880s belongs to the time when the Board of Trade was already laying down standards to be observed in new construction, and other twin-track tunnels from this later period have not posed problems for electrification. Is there something odd about Standedge? Does it lack an invert? Is it an unusual shape? Or what? It just isn't good enough for politicians to throw "the problems with Standedge Tunnel" at us whilst trying to dow down electrification without ever telling us what those problems are and how far competent engineers genuinely seem them as an obstacle.

Smoke and mirrors I expect.

They managed to solve the Severn tunnel issues, so I expect the same could be done here.

It's not even a particularly wet tunnel.

 

[AndrewE]

Smoke and mirrors I expect. They managed to solve the Severn tunnel issues, so I expect the same could be done here. It's not even a particularly wet tunnel.

Senex & I and others, some of us with experience of working on (and physically in) tunnels including Standedge are calling out everyone who claims there is a problem. We don't think there is any issue or challenge to be overcome.
The houses at Mossley are definitely a challenge though, and given the costs and extended closure that would be needed to deepen the rock cutting by a couple of metres and then roof it over I can see that the suggestion of buying up the houses has merit. I don't like removing historic, interesting and much-needed housing stock... I suppose you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

 

[nick.c]

Apologies for not bothering to look at a map for myself but is there any chance you could bore a new tunnel, divert TPE through it, electrify the old one at leisure, then the new tunnel is in the right place for full high speed NPR later on?

Similar to what I've been thinking. What I don't understand about the TPRU is that it is deemed acceptable to close the route for 9 months for each of the 5 years it will take to complete the work. After all, if the route is important enough to justify £3 Billion being spent on it now PLUS needing a new parallel NPR route (£10 - 15 Billion?) in the next decade or so, then extended closures really should not be on the table. The West Coast wasn't closed for such long periods when it was upgraded and neither would important commuter lines into London.

If funding could be found, I think that there is a good argument for building parts of NPR first or at least at the same time.

 

[Ken H]

Regarding 'Standedge', the infilling and re-boring of Farnworth Tunnel cost £20.8 million!

Working out at around £77,037.34 per meter.

Length of 'Standege' about 5,000 meters!

Cost of rebuilding 'Standege' would be approximately £385,185,185.19

Its a very rough estimate but I think it makes the point about how expensive it would be!

Massive geological problems at farnworth, not least because of old mine workings.
Standedge would be through more stable mud stones and millstone grits, and no mining.
And surely a longer tunnel would be cheaper per metre than a short one?

 

[furnessvale]

Similar to what I've been thinking. What I don't understand about the TPRU is that it is deemed acceptable to close the route for 9 months for each of the 5 years it will take to complete the work. After all, if the route is important enough to justify £3 Billion being spent on it now PLUS needing a new parallel NPR route (£10 - 15 Billion?) in the next decade or so, then extended closures really should not be on the table. The West Coast wasn't closed for such long periods when it was upgraded and neither would important commuter lines into London.

If funding could be found, I think that there is a good argument for building parts of NPR first or at least at the same time.

Presumably "more or less" acceptable alternative services will be established using the other available trans pennine routes during this time.

I cannot believe they would rely on total bustitution..............but then again!

 

[Ken H]

Similar to what I've been thinking. What I don't understand about the TPRU is that it is deemed acceptable to close the route for 9 months for each of the 5 years it will take to complete the work. After all, if the route is important enough to justify £3 Billion being spent on it now PLUS needing a new parallel NPR route (£10 - 15 Billion?) in the next decade or so, then extended closures really should not be on the table. The West Coast wasn't closed for such long periods when it was upgraded and neither would important commuter lines into London.

If funding could be found, I think that there is a good argument for building parts of NPR first or at least at the same time.

thats why I think they should build a Stalybridge -Huddersfield base tunnel. all away from the exisiting railway

 

[Chester1]

Presumably "more or less" acceptable alternative services will be established using the other available trans pennine routes during this time.

I cannot believe they would rely on total bustitution..............but then again!

The investment in the Calder Valley recently seems to have been partly because of its planned heavy use when sections of the Standedge route are closed.

 

[WatcherZero]

Similar to what I've been thinking. What I don't understand about the TPRU is that it is deemed acceptable to close the route for 9 months for each of the 5 years it will take to complete the work. After all, if the route is important enough to justify £3 Billion being spent on it now PLUS needing a new parallel NPR route (£10 - 15 Billion?) in the next decade or so, then extended closures really should not be on the table. The West Coast wasn't closed for such long periods when it was upgraded and neither would important commuter lines into London.

If funding could be found, I think that there is a good argument for building parts of NPR first or at least at the same time.

Perhaps if the West Coast had been closed they might have delivered on the original scope rather than see it downgraded massively due to running overbudget. When your doing upgrades of a running railway roughly a quarter of your work hours each day are duplicated effort, constantly unboxing and then reboxing again ahead of the following morning services so to speak.

 

[CdBrux]

We need to go with whatever is most likely to result in 10/12 carriage trains between Manchester and Leeds. Electrification is most likely to resultin that.

Not platform lengthening?

 

[AndrewE]

Presumably "more or less" acceptable alternative services will be established using the other available trans pennine routes during this time.
I cannot believe they would rely on total bustitution..............but then again!

It's hard to imagine any sort of "acceptable alternative [train] services" that could replace the current trains, apart from some limited-stop inter-city offerings - which would probably wipe out all the paths for local services on the routes being "borrowed!" For my needs there is no way that bustitution could ever be an acceptable alternative for the local or long-distance services either. That base-tunnel is starting to look more attractive...
Someone please remind me how much HS2(a) is costing just to increase capacity into London? I bet our northern capacity upgrade between Manchester and Leeds would come in cheaper...

 

[59CosG95]

https://www.railengineer.uk/2014/04/03/the-standedge-experience/ Worth a read to find out about the conditions of Standedge Tunnel. It's an older article, but it checks out.