ForTheLoveOf
Established Member
- Joined
- 7 Oct 2017
- Messages
- 6,416
I have recently come across a number of tickets which would appear to have no validity whatsoever, or in some cases where it is not possible to make the entire journey, by virtue of route or TOC restrictions which have been applied to that ticket.
A good example of this problem would be this fare (a Super Off-Peak Single at £15.00) from North Wembley to Rugby, routed 'WMR & LNR ONLY'.
The only services which call at North Wembley are operated by London Overground and London Underground. West Midlands Trains does not serve the station at all.
Imagining a passenger who goes to a TVM and buys this ticket (and hence is not stopped from doing this by an online TIS, or a booking office clerk, both of which would hopefully realise the problem), what rights do they have?
Do LO/LU have an obligation to carry them, notwithstanding the fact that the ticket's TOC restriction would ordinarily prevent travel on their services? Is the ticket simply null and void for the fact that it doesn't actually let you travel at all (since, legally speaking, it would appear you can't even start the journey), and hence offers no consideration?
Would the passenger be liable to a Penalty Fare, or prosecution under the relevant Railway Byelaw (if travelling on LO/LU)? Would a guard or RPI coming across this passenger have the right to require them to buy a new ticket, presumably being the undiscounted Off-Peak Single route 'NOT VIA LONDON' at £43.60 (or potentially the Anytime Single at £64.50, or slightly higher fares if travelling via London)?
Would it be any different if the passenger had a route restricted ticket, where, due to the nature of the route of timetables services, there is no way of complying with the route restriction without travelling on a non-permitted route, or on a different route that has a higher fare? Would the passenger be liable to pay for a new ticket to cover the non-permitted part, or for a change of route excess if travelling on a route that has a specific, higher route?
Does any of the above change if it is possible to comply with the route or TOC restrictions on some days but not others (e.g. in the case of specific routes or stations which have once-a-week services)? Does the validity of the ticket then depend on the day on which it is purchased?
I'd be interested in your thoughts and opinions. I have chosen the example carefully as I am aware it is likely to be removed now that it is 'publicised' here (and there is no great loss if this happens); however there are numerous other cases where the journey can also either not be started or finished, or indeed not be undertaken at all, because of a route or TOC restriction.
A good example of this problem would be this fare (a Super Off-Peak Single at £15.00) from North Wembley to Rugby, routed 'WMR & LNR ONLY'.
The only services which call at North Wembley are operated by London Overground and London Underground. West Midlands Trains does not serve the station at all.
Imagining a passenger who goes to a TVM and buys this ticket (and hence is not stopped from doing this by an online TIS, or a booking office clerk, both of which would hopefully realise the problem), what rights do they have?
Do LO/LU have an obligation to carry them, notwithstanding the fact that the ticket's TOC restriction would ordinarily prevent travel on their services? Is the ticket simply null and void for the fact that it doesn't actually let you travel at all (since, legally speaking, it would appear you can't even start the journey), and hence offers no consideration?
Would the passenger be liable to a Penalty Fare, or prosecution under the relevant Railway Byelaw (if travelling on LO/LU)? Would a guard or RPI coming across this passenger have the right to require them to buy a new ticket, presumably being the undiscounted Off-Peak Single route 'NOT VIA LONDON' at £43.60 (or potentially the Anytime Single at £64.50, or slightly higher fares if travelling via London)?
Would it be any different if the passenger had a route restricted ticket, where, due to the nature of the route of timetables services, there is no way of complying with the route restriction without travelling on a non-permitted route, or on a different route that has a higher fare? Would the passenger be liable to pay for a new ticket to cover the non-permitted part, or for a change of route excess if travelling on a route that has a specific, higher route?
Does any of the above change if it is possible to comply with the route or TOC restrictions on some days but not others (e.g. in the case of specific routes or stations which have once-a-week services)? Does the validity of the ticket then depend on the day on which it is purchased?
I'd be interested in your thoughts and opinions. I have chosen the example carefully as I am aware it is likely to be removed now that it is 'publicised' here (and there is no great loss if this happens); however there are numerous other cases where the journey can also either not be started or finished, or indeed not be undertaken at all, because of a route or TOC restriction.