ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[kylemore]

Sooner or later the "right" thing has to start happening and the "wrong" thing stopped.
The "railway" people who support this stupid programme obviously can't see the wood for the trees.

A political decision has to be made to lease new trains and get them delivered as quickly as possible - the railway people should be carpeted and told to get on with it. The Railway is to all intents and purposes state owned, the professionals have been allowed too much leeway and they've made an arse of it!

It's not just the railway - look at the Calmac/Ferguson Ailsa mega mess!

 

[SC43090]

Friday 21st December 2018

Understand there is a 1347 Doncaster Wabtec to Perth later today

SC 43090

 

[Esker-pades]

Post in Scot-rail, 13+47 off WAbtec to Perth... could it be 2nd refurb HST

Friday 21st December 2018

Understand there is a 1347 Doncaster Wabtec to Perth later today

SC 43090

And here is the RTT link for people interested:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91804/2018/12/21/advanced

 

[_toommm_]

And here is the RTT link for people interested:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91804/2018/12/21/advanced

I know timing loads aren'tt everything, but is it using the preset 'Mini-HST' timing load, as I'm surprised if it wouldn't be allowed to get up to 125mph on the ECML - or is there not enough brake force?

 

[66Yorks]

Two Scotrail liveried HST's, back to back, passed though York at dinnertime.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R41390/2018/12/21/advanced

 

[jingsmonty]

Oh god please no! not Class 800s!

I suspect all that will happen is an exemption for the classic sets until such time as the refurbs are ready.

My thoughts too - it's obvious that the 'Classic' sets are just a short term option until the refurbs are completed, so I'd fully expect an exemption to be the way forward.

I'd echo GrimShady's sentiments Re Class 800s - they look deeply unimpressive inside & I suspect the diesel performance is equally unimpressive too....

 

[jingsmonty]

Sooner or later the "right" thing has to start happening and the "wrong" thing stopped.
The "railway" people who support this stupid programme obviously can't see the wood for the trees.

A political decision has to be made to lease new trains and get them delivered as quickly as possible - the railway people should be carpeted and told to get on with it. The Railway is to all intents and purposes state owned, the professionals have been allowed too much leeway and they've made an arse of it!

It's not just the railway - look at the Calmac/Ferguson Ailsa mega mess!

I'm tempted to reply to this, but there is another thread along the lines of "was the HST the correct train". It's been done to death several times already on here! Personally, I'm still supportive of the HST introduction, it's just a shame that Wabtec have dropped the ball & that DMUs are disappearing off-lease. Scotrail stuck between a rock & a hard place here.

I suspect that as more & more Refurbished sets are introduced, the adverse publicity will slowly disappear. The 'Classic' set are in no way ideal (the station duties take far longer, for one thing - never mind the brown stuff hitting the track...), but it was either that or a worse level of cancellations than we've seen already. Some of my colleagues have had a look at the refurbished set when it was stabled in Perth recently & were impressed with it (& these are cynical hard-bitten railway people who weren't keen on relearning HSTs)...

My only concern is reliability...

 

[samuelmorris]

That is a bit of a worry considering the failure rate and some suggestions that GWR's HST fleet is being rather neglected in the face of imminent replacement. Is there an established cause for the failure rate of GWR's HST fleet to be so high compared to other HST operators? If it's just a TOC thing then theoretically reliability should improve with Scotrail, but I wonder if there's a bit more too it than that.

As per several comments, I would argue it is really in passengers' best interests to get converted HSTs over 800s. The latter may be new but once the novelty wears off, they won't seem so appealing!

 

[Bletchleyite]

My thoughts too - it's obvious that the 'Classic' sets are just a short term option until the refurbs are completed, so I'd fully expect an exemption to be the way forward.

I'd echo GrimShady's sentiments Re Class 800s - they look deeply unimpressive inside & I suspect the diesel performance is equally unimpressive too....

I wonder if CAF could do a "Class 197" or "Class 297" based on the end-doored TPE EMUs. A 6-car variant (recognising that MUs lose some saloon space to the cabs) would seem a good fit.

Limit it to 110mph and you could even have some non-awful seats.

 

[jingsmonty]

I wonder if CAF could do a "Class 197" or "Class 297" based on the end-doored TPE EMUs. A 6-car variant (recognising that MUs lose some saloon space to the cabs) would seem a good fit.

Limit it to 110mph and you could even have some non-awful seats.

Think I'd rather just stick to the established plan, as far behind as it is - the 'New Trains instead of HST' argument isn't really for this thread anyway, to be honest

 

[InOban]

Whatever this STP movement from Wabtec to Perth, it hasn't moved.

 

[Esker-pades]

Whatever this STP movement from Wabtec to Perth, it hasn't moved.

Yes, I just spotted that. Is this another false alarm or is this just going to be really late? The wait continues.

 

[jimm]

That is a bit of a worry considering the failure rate and some suggestions that GWR's HST fleet is being rather neglected in the face of imminent replacement. Is there an established cause for the failure rate of GWR's HST fleet to be so high compared to other HST operators? If it's just a TOC thing then theoretically reliability should improve with Scotrail, but I wonder if there's a bit more too it than that.

GWR HSTs have had poorer reliability figures than the other HST fleets for years. but then they have been worked in different ways from other TOCs for years as well - and GWR had all the power cars with GEC traction motors, which were never as reliable as the Brush design fitted to most of the fleet.

Where are the operational equivalents on East Coast, the MML or XC of the Cotswold Line or the Cornish main line? Where station stops are close together, with the power cars going through repeated cycles of powering up, shutting off, powering up, etc, every 10 minutes or so - or less. There are plenty of taxing climbs in the GW area as well, be it the Devon Banks, Malvern Hills or the climb from Stroud up Sapperton bank.

All these dish out extra punishment to traction equipment, compared with running long distances at speed, which is largely how HSTs have been used elsewhere - and is what the train was originally designed to do.

Hopefully the ScotRail sets will find the Highland climbs less punishing when moving rather fewer coaches up them than sets with GWR have had to do on the steeper hills in Devon.

 

[samuelmorris]

Thanks for the insight - that's kind of what I was alluding to - GWR working the units differently suggests that this may be less an issue on Scotrail, but if it's work that the sets haven't done regularly before (I know it will mostly be routes already covered by the top end of LNER services but the Scotland section of those routes don't comprise much of a set's weekly roster I wouldn't have thought), then that probably isn't going to change much for the better.
The GEC traction motors being less reliable than their Brush equivalents will be something that most likely will lead to the Scotrail units maintaining their position at the bottom of the pile for reliability, assuming that this flaw makes up any substantial percentage of set failures / unavailability.

On the whole I suppose the routes they will operate in Scotland may be less intensive than the Devon/Cornwall section at GWR, but they'll still be running much shorter distances on average than the LNER fleet has and I do wonder if the more challenging weather conditions up there might negate any benefit seen from slightly less intensive operation. Either way it doesn't look too promising does it, especially if mechanical issues and any faults related to the considerable age of the coaches in areas not covered by the refurbishment, are compounded with the usual trauma of newly introduced door systems that may take a while to bed in. Don't get me wrong, I think they'll make for very nice trains to travel on and will probably be well received, but if these sets reach a 5-figure MTIN within the next couple of years I'd be quite surprised.

 

[Esker-pades]

RTT have confirmed this afternoon's run as cancelled "due to a request by the customer".

 

[43096]

GWR HSTs have had poorer reliability figures than the other HST fleets for years. but then they have been worked in different ways from other TOCs for years as well - and GWR had all the power cars with GEC traction motors, which were never as reliable as the Brush design fitted to most of the fleet.

Where are the operational equivalents on East Coast, the MML or XC of the Cotswold Line or the Cornish main line? Where station stops are close together, with the power cars going through repeated cycles of powering up, shutting off, powering up, etc, every 10 minutes or so - or less. There are plenty of taxing climbs in the GW area as well, be it the Devon Banks, Malvern Hills or the climb from Stroud up Sapperton bank.

All these dish out extra punishment to traction equipment, compared with running long distances at speed, which is largely how HSTs have been used elsewhere - and is what the train was originally designed to do.

Hopefully the ScotRail sets will find the Highland climbs less punishing when moving rather fewer coaches up them than sets with GWR have had to do on the steeper hills in Devon.

The Great Western spin machine in full flow. That does not explain why GWR machines are about half as reliable as the other fleets. Every TOC has different duty cycles: LNER may have longer runs, but their sets are longer and mileages higher, the Midland has a lot of changes of speed which results in plenty of notching up/down (like GWR...) etc etc. That will stress some components more than others in different fleets.

The basic reason is poor maintenance, with a lack of attention to detail and a "kick it back out and hope" mentality. Add in a failure to invest in improved equipment - e.g. every other TOC has fitted new electronics which improves wheel slip/slide performance to the extent they get an extra 100,000 miles out of bogie life - and you can see why reliability suffers. Just one example is wheelflats - GWR are reactive (i.e. they wait until flats develop to a critical level and then put them on the lathe - result is you turn a lot of wheel off), whereas the other TOCs are proactive (they have a preventative turn strategy where they "skim" the wheels to prevent flats developing) - not only does this prolong wheelset life (and save cost and time of vehicles out of service) but it also improves the ride for passengers.

One final point: have a look at the reliability of GWR's other fleets compared with the same types elsewhere. In general, GWR have the least reliable fleets in the country, across multiple types. That cannot be coincidental.

 

[mcmad]

Sooner or later the "right" thing has to start happening and the "wrong" thing stopped.
The "railway" people who support this stupid programme obviously can't see the wood for the trees.

A political decision has to be made to lease new trains and get them delivered as quickly as possible - the railway people should be carpeted and told to get on with it. The Railway is to all intents and purposes state owned, the professionals have been allowed too much leeway and they've made an arse of it!

It's not just the railway - look at the Calmac/Ferguson Ailsa mega mess!

And the common link in both? Transport Scotland aka The Scottish Government!

 

[AndrewE]

Sooner or later the "right" thing has to start happening and the "wrong" thing stopped.
The "railway" people who support this stupid programme obviously can't see the wood for the trees.

A political decision has to be made to lease new trains and get them delivered as quickly as possible - the railway people should be carpeted and told to get on with it. The Railway is to all intents and purposes state owned, the professionals have been allowed too much leeway and they've made an arse of it!

And the common link in both? Transport Scotland aka The Scottish Government!

The trouble is that as has been said before (and which is really for another thread) that there is no spare capacity in any of the likely builders until long after the HSTs will be running, especially as most of them can run now, although they won't immediately be up to the standard sought in the longer term. There is a desperate shortage of capacity. Where would you magic your new trains up from for quicker delivery?

 

[jimm]

The Great Western spin machine in full flow. That does not explain why GWR machines are about half as reliable as the other fleets. Every TOC has different duty cycles: LNER may have longer runs, but their sets are longer and mileages higher, the Midland has a lot of changes of speed which results in plenty of notching up/down (like GWR...) etc etc. That will stress some components more than others in different fleets.

The basic reason is poor maintenance, with a lack of attention to detail and a "kick it back out and hope" mentality. Add in a failure to invest in improved equipment - e.g. every other TOC has fitted new electronics which improves wheel slip/slide performance to the extent they get an extra 100,000 miles out of bogie life - and you can see why reliability suffers. Just one example is wheelflats - GWR are reactive (i.e. they wait until flats develop to a critical level and then put them on the lathe - result is you turn a lot of wheel off), whereas the other TOCs are proactive (they have a preventative turn strategy where they "skim" the wheels to prevent flats developing) - not only does this prolong wheelset life (and save cost and time of vehicles out of service) but it also improves the ride for passengers.

One final point: have a look at the reliability of GWR's other fleets compared with the same types elsewhere. In general, GWR have the least reliable fleets in the country, across multiple types. That cannot be coincidental.

Well you said it

That will stress some components more than others in different fleets

The HST was designed from the word go to do the kind of work it does on the East Coast - never in a million years was it designed for start, stop and repeat duty cycles of the kind GWR was using them for.

I must have missed all the gradients in the range of 1 in 36 to 1 in 70 in the middle of the ECML and MML - hammering up and down those all the time probably does stress some components rather more than on the LNER and EMT sets.

I'm sure the past and present staff at GWR's depots will be delighted to know they were doing such a bad job over so many years. Clearly you had better offer your services to tell them where they are going wrong - and don't forget to tell Scotrail while you're at it.

 

[BRX]

I asked on the diagrams thread too... but are most of the HST diagrams now being worked by HSTs or are a large proportion of them likely to show up as something else?

(Hoping to catch a trip on one on Sunday)

 

[yorkie]

Can we stick to the introduction of Scotrail HSTs on this thread please.

If anyone wishes to post any ideas/suggestions for alternative provision, these must be posted in the Speculative Ideas section, thanks

 

[kylemore]

The trouble is that as has been said before (and which is really for another thread) that there is no spare capacity in any of the likely builders until long after the HSTs will be running, especially as most of them can run now, although they won't immediately be up to the standard sought in the longer term. There is a desperate shortage of capacity. Where would you magic your new trains up from for quicker delivery?

Just a quick reply before we get the "Riot Act" read to us by Admin!

I fully accept the HSTs will be running before (albeit mega-late) any new leased stock can be delivered, and that Scotrail would have to take their place in the queue, my point is we have to make a start with the sensible option sometime.

 

[yorkie]

We are happy for you to make that point. It needs to be made in a new thread in the correct part of the forum please. Thank you.

 

[GrimShady]

Thread created under Speculative Ideas for discussion on alternative arrangements.

 

[route101]

I asked on the diagrams thread too... but are most of the HST diagrams now being worked by HSTs or are a large proportion of them likely to show up as something else?

(Hoping to catch a trip on one on Sunday)

Well the 0939 from Glasgow on Thursday was a 170 vice HST . Bit of pot luck.

 

[BRX]

I'm now on the 1438 from glasgow to elgin, supposedly HST. But it's a two coach 158 and is full and standing. I'm not the only one whose seat reservation is now worthless...folk aint very happy.

 

[47271]

I'm now on the 1438 from glasgow to elgin, supposedly HST. But it's a two coach 158 and is full and standing. I'm not the only one whose seat reservation is now worthless...folk aint very happy.

Jeezo. That train used to run quite regularly as a six coach 170, never mind a four coach HST. A grim illustration of how things are at the moment.

 

[BRX]

Jeezo. That train used to run quite regularly as a six coach 170, never mind a four coach HST. A grim illustration of how things are at the moment.

It's actually emptied out a bit from perth.
Now I get why people complain about the legroom on these things though...

 

[jingsmonty]

I have to be honest & say that I do have serious misgivings about HST - personally, I've always been supportive of the programme (despite some fierce critism of the HST introduction on here...!), but it worries me that very few HSTs seem to be appearing on HST diagrams just now. It's happened to me already - was looking forward to taking an HST down to Perth & a 170 turned up.....& the 1725 Inverness - Glasgow QS was a 158 vice HST the other day...

Scotrail really need to get a grip with the programme - some of the issues (such as lack of HST trained staff) are temporary, but others worry me - especially the maintenance/reliability side of things.

Hopefully we will see more refurbished sets soon, that will help.

I have to say, though, whatever happens with the HST programme, I'm glad I, at least, got to drive these magnificent trains - I've wanted to since I was about 12 years old & travelled on one from Newcastle to York around about 1984....!

 

[kylemore]

I'm now on the 1438 from glasgow to elgin, supposedly HST. But it's a two coach 158 and is full and standing. I'm not the only one whose seat reservation is now worthless...folk aint very happy.

Citylink and Stagecoach must be laughing all the way to the bank just now!