ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[nat67]

I think it is the Wabtec workload due to so much work being given to them at the same time, spate of of PRM Mods as the deadline day gets nearer, HST conversions, discovering corrosion issues when stock arrives.

Wouldn't it have been of help if GWR at Laira could have done some to them like sanding down of paint and bodywork to make it that little bit more easier or even take out all the furnishings like seats etc. Or would that have been to much to ask or not under the paper work rules as in (not our problem, bought as found).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn't it have been of help if GWR at Laira could have done some to them like sanding down of paint and bodywork to make it that little bit more easier or even take out all the furnishings like seats etc. Or would that have been to much to ask or not under the paper work rules as in (not our problem, bought as found).

They could get agency staff in at minimum wage for removing seats, it's hardly a skilled job.

 

[43096]

Wouldn't it have been of help if GWR at Laira could have done some to them like sanding down of paint and bodywork to make it that little bit more easier or even take out all the furnishings like seats etc. Or would that have been to much to ask or not under the paper work rules as in (not our problem, bought as found).

Not really of much help - the seats are being re-used in the refurb and the vehicles will have a condition audit done when they arrive anyway. The actual sanding down of bodywork isn't that time consuming.

And in any case, given the state the vehicles are in, I wouldn't be trusting GWR to do anything to them.

 

[Journeyman]

Scotrail seem convinced that by this time next year, all the refurbished HST sets will be complete - I find this very difficult to believe but hope it is the case.

26 sets outstanding = delivery of one every two weeks. No chance.

 

[Journeyman]

For an indication of the state of many GWR HSTs...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/state-of-gwr-hsts.175324/

Doesn't sound encouraging, does it? Leaks on Mark 3s are common.

 

[nat67]

They could get agency staff in at minimum wage for removing seats, it's hardly a skilled job.

True, very true.

 

[nat67]

Not really of much help - the seats are being re-used in the refurb and the vehicles will have a condition audit done when they arrive anyway. The actual sanding down of bodywork isn't that time consuming.

And in any case, given the state the vehicles are in, I wouldn't be trusting GWR to do anything to them.

True, it took them for days just to rescue a HST set from Exeter, its not like it was stuck on Mars or something.

 

[Northhighland]

I think it is the Wabtec workload due to so much work being given to them at the same time, spate of of PRM Mods as the deadline day gets nearer, HST conversions, discovering corrosion issues when stock arrives.

If that is true they either resource to succeed or the programme is dead in the water.

 

[kylemore]

Predictions for this time in 2019?

* Less than ten full sets will have been delivered by Wabtec at December 2019
* The second set will not be delivered before 30th January 2019
* Major questions will be appearing in the mass media, in the usual scandal/witch hunt style.
* Some kind of interim order will be proposed that will effectively end the introduction of the full HST fleet.

Well it is a "Scandal" and there deserves to be a "Witch Hunt"!

 

[Highland37]

If that is true they either resource to succeed or the programme is dead in the water.

The programme is dead. As posted above, they (Wabtec) will need to deliver a set every two weeks for the whole of next year.

They can't do that as their current track record shows very clearly.

I predict that about 10-12 sets will enter service in refurbished state but that the programme will be cancelled and either Abellio or TS will have to place a bi-mode order with Stadler or someone else with speeded up electrification due to the need to move to modern stock.

Presuming I am wrong, can someone explain how Wabtec will be to deliver on their commitments?

 

[applepie2100]

The programme is dead. As posted above, they (Wabtec) will need to deliver a set every two weeks for the whole of next year.

They can't do that as their current track record shows very clearly.

I predict that about 10-12 sets will enter service in refurbished state but that the programme will be cancelled and either Abellio or TS will have to place a bi-mode order with Stadler or someone else with speeded up electrification due to the need to move to modern stock.

Presuming I am wrong, can someone explain how Wabtec will be to deliver on their commitments?

In order to avoid wasting even more time and throwing good money after bad surely a new rolling stock option (Class 800 series/Mk5's and locos etc) should now be being urgently pursued. Wabtec should be required to pay the leasing costs for however many "Classic" HST's are required to keep the service operating and for as long as it takes to get new stock into service) and Alex Hynes should be called before the Scottish Parliament to explain how and why things were allowed to get into this state?

I would imagine however that the chances of this happening are about as likely as rocking horse poo because after all it's only the passenger who is being inconvenienced.

 

[Highland37]

He (Alex Hynes) has already appeared at parliament to answer to MSPs but ultimately it is not his or Scotrail's fault. Yes, Transport Scotland and Abellio can be criticised for their decision to use HSTs but that decision was partly based upon Wabtec being able to deliver. In short, the weakest link in the chain is Wabtec.

I fully agree with you that a new order is required and that should be bimode. Personally I like the HSTs but I don't think they will enter full service which is a shame.

 

[43096]

In order to avoid wasting even more time and throwing good money after bad surely a new rolling stock option (Class 800 series/Mk5's and locos etc) should now be being urgently pursued. Wabtec should be required to pay the leasing costs for however many "Classic" HST's are required to keep the service operating and for as long as it takes to get new stock into service) and Alex Hynes should be called before the Scottish Parliament to explain how and why things were allowed to get into this state?

I would imagine however that the chances of this happening are about as likely as rocking horse poo because after all it's only the passenger who is being inconvenienced.

Right. You have to go out to tender for it, do all the contractual stuff and get vehicles built. That is going to be minimum of two years by the time they are built, maintenance sorted out, staff trained and in service, and may well be even longer. You are then going to unilaterally terminate the contract with Angel and suffer the commercial consequences of that. I do not see how that helps?

You are aware that the classic sets can't remain beyond the end of next year, aren't you? And you won't "require" Wabtec to pay for them - they will tell you where to go when you terminate their contract.

 

[Stoney1979]

Is it legally set in stone that the "classic" HSTs can't run after end-2019? Somehow, if needs be, surely exceptions can be made.

If it turns out that the "classics" can reliably do the job of moving people around, which is yet to be proven of course, may it be possible to extend the deadline into 2020 and beyond? Even if they're not perfect, it's got to be better than no trains, which is looking more and more likely.

 

[Stoney1979]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46636453

 

[absolutelymilk]

Do they all need to be in service by January 2020? Could they not just keep working on them and adding them in once the refurbishment is complete?

 

[43096]

Is it legally set in stone that the "classic" HSTs can't run after end-2019? Somehow, if needs be, surely exceptions can be made.

If it turns out that the "classics" can reliably do the job of moving people around, which is yet to be proven of course, may it be possible to extend the deadline into 2020 and beyond? Even if they're not perfect, it's got to be better than no trains, which is looking more and more likely.

At this point, the PRM deadline is legally set at 31/12/2019.

 

[Stoney1979]

At this point, the PRM deadline is legally set at 31/12/2019.

Just been Googling it as was initially looking to see if it was UK or EU law. Turns out it's UK law so Brexit, if it happens, will have no effect. However, found this paragraph:

"While accessible rail fleet will be achieved by 1 January 2020, it is likely that a small number of trains will not fully comply with the PRM-TSI or RVAR by then. Inevitably, some dispensations and exemptions will remain necessary. DfT is working with the rail industry and DPTAC to keep these to a minimum". (source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/accessible-rail-transport/accessible-rail-transport)

 

[mcmad]

Of course DfT will be delighted to bail Scotrail and the Scottish Government out with a dispensation with no end date in sight .....

 

[Stoney1979]

Of course DfT will be delighted to bail Scotrail and the Scottish Government out with a dispensation with no end date in sight .....

Indeed. Not saying it's right, but something has to give.

Based on all the info and comments above, come 31/12/19 SR won't have enough trains without the "classics" being granted a PRM dispensation.

 

[43096]

Indeed. Not saying it's right, but something has to give.

Based on all the info and comments above, come 31/12/19 SR won't have enough trains without the "classics" being granted a PRM dispensation.

But we don't have the info - it's just rumour and supposition, mostly from people with an axe to grind.

 

[Stoney1979]

Reading it thought I suspect legally, if needs be, the "classics" could be granted a PRM dispensation for as long as is necessary.

 

[anamyd]

Just been Googling it as was initially looking to see if it was UK or EU law. Turns out it's UK law so Brexit, if it happens, will have no effect. However, found this paragraph:

"While accessible rail fleet will be achieved by 1 January 2020, it is likely that a small number of trains will not fully comply with the PRM-TSI or RVAR by then. Inevitably, some dispensations and exemptions will remain necessary. DfT is working with the rail industry and DPTAC to keep these to a minimum". (source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/accessible-rail-transport/accessible-rail-transport)

Thanks for the info

 

[gsnedders]

Of course DfT will be delighted to bail Scotrail and the Scottish Government out with a dispensation with no end date in sight .....

DfT or ORR? I'd have thought the latter.

 

[adrock1976]

Of course DfT will be delighted to bail Scotrail and the Scottish Government out with a dispensation with no end date in sight .....

Indeed. Not saying it's right, but something has to give.

Based on all the info and comments above, come 31/12/19 SR won't have enough trains without the "classics" being granted a PRM dispensation.

No matter how it is dressed up as, at the end of the day the buck has to stop with the DfT as it was them who specified the electrification of the Great Western Railway Intercity routes.

As most of us may be aware, the GWR electrification project is running behind schedule, as are the introduction of the Class 800/802 Intercity Express Trains.

 

[Ginaro]

He (Alex Hynes) has already appeared at parliament to answer to MSPs but ultimately it is not his or Scotrail's fault. Yes, Transport Scotland and Abellio can be criticised for their decision to use HSTs but that decision was partly based upon Wabtec being able to deliver. In short, the weakest link in the chain is Wabtec.

I fully agree with you that a new order is required and that should be bimode. Personally I like the HSTs but I don't think they will enter full service which is a shame.

Alex Hynes said last month

"..there will be 26 trains, which will all have been refurbished to an intercity standard by the end of next year."

- I expect the next time he is front of the committee (in a few months) he'll have changed his tune...

 

[SC318250]

Post in Scot-rail, 13+47 off WAbtec to Perth... could it be 2nd refurb HST

 

[jingsmonty]

Post in Scot-rail, 13+47 off WAbtec to Perth... could it be 2nd refurb HST

Lets hope so...it's badly needed!

 

[InOban]

Strange destination, but I'm sure someone will report from Doncaster. Pity I'm not in Edinburgh to see it pass round the Sub at 2030.

 

[GrimShady]

In order to avoid wasting even more time and throwing good money after bad surely a new rolling stock option (Class 800 series/Mk5's and locos etc) should now be being urgently pursued. Wabtec should be required to pay the leasing costs for however many "Classic" HST's are required to keep the service operating and for as long as it takes to get new stock into service) and Alex Hynes should be called before the Scottish Parliament to explain how and why things were allowed to get into this state?

I would imagine however that the chances of this happening are about as likely as rocking horse poo because after all it's only the passenger who is being inconvenienced.

Oh god please no! not Class 800s!

I suspect all that will happen is an exemption for the classic sets until such time as the refurbs are ready.