ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[BRX]

Isn't it also usually the case (and do correct me if I'm wrong) that these trains aren't strictly "TNT" because only the front locomotive is doing the work, with the one on the rear dead-in-tow?

Yes that's right.

 

[swaldman]

And on the topic of HSTs specifically, ScotRail have released proposed renders of the cycle storage space on the planned conversion of 153s for the West Highland Line (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-and-baggage-vans-for-scotrail.159376/page-26). I mentioned in that thread that it would be great to see such a space in an HST trailer; would that be theoretically possible?

Don't the HSTs already have loads of room for bikes in the "guard's van" portion of the power cars?

 

[sprinterguy]

Don't the HSTs already have loads of room for bikes in the "guard's van" portion of the power cars?

There'll be space for three bikes in each of the guard's vans, but only for those passengers making end to end journeys. It surprises me that this space won't accommodate more.

 

[swaldman]

There'll be space for three bikes in each of the guard's vans, but only for those passengers making end to end journeys. It surprises me that this space won't accommodate more.

er.... yes. It surprises me as well.

 

[InvHst]

I think the thing that shows worse is how many actual hst diagrams are running right now cause sure as hell it ain't the number required which is causing major issues across the network the 944 from inverness has again been a 170 this morning and doesn't suprise me and last nights 2156 from aberdeen to inverness was a 170 which meant that one of this mornings hsts was a 170 instead hugely embarrassing. How long before we actually see an improvement

 

[chuff chuff]

er.... yes. It surprises me as well.

There are racks for three bikes in the power cars.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Not if Scotrail intend to achieve the improvement in journey times on inter-city services that was stipulated by the Invitation to Tender: A 1+4 HST formation would have a similar power to weight ratio to the existing Turbostars, and quite possibly poorer acceleration and adhesion due to fewer powered axles and higher gearing. A 1+5 HST formation would be even worse, and both would be worse still if dragging a second 'dead' power car.

You could probably get comparable performance out of a Class 68 + DBSO, as well as allowing one more vehicle into terminal platforms. If, of course, there were any Class 68s. Or DBSOs.

There are racks for three bikes in the power cars.

That was referred to in the comment you're replying to, but it doesn't seem like a very impressive figure. Making 75% of the cycle capacity only available end to end seems like a bit of a mistake to me, I'd hope that this gets reviewed after some service experience with the refurbished sets.

Looking at the layouts, it's not obvious to me why each standard class coach couldn't have a toilet at one end and cycle storage at the other, rather than just one coach having cycle storage and giving up the toilet for it. I'm sure there's an excellent reason, I just can't figure out what it is!

 

[scotraildriver]

The reason bikes can only be carried end to end in the power cars is due to very strict rules regarding the Inergen fire system fitted in the power cars. There are only 2 situations where ANYONE is pernitted to enter a power car - either when it is shut down or the driver has a key in. At all other times the fire system is "live" and should it go off anyone in the power car(including the cab and guards van) would be quickly suffocated. Therefore it is not possible to access the power cars at intermediate stations as it would require either the power car be shut down, or the driver running up and down the train to put a key in.
The operating procedure requires the buffer end power be shut down a terminal stations, so bikes can be loaded then. Once the driver starts it up its out of bounds. (so no last minute bikes!) Bikes can still be put in the leading power car providing the driver is there with a key in the desk.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

…
It's a total waste of public money to top and tail four carriages when one can be easily used
It's a total waste of public money to use 125mph locomotives on slow Scottish lines.
As stated, there are other severely crowded routes that need this hst stock much more.
Allocating these hst to Scotland is a total waste of public money and a ludicrous example of stock ulitisation.

It's not public money. The HST refurb/upgrades are all funded by Abellio and the ROSCOs.
Since Abellio/GWR decided to go with refurbished Mk3s, no other TOC has shown any interest, notably Transport for Wales which has gone for new stock and a few Mk4s.
If by "other severely crowded routes that need this stock more" you mean Cross Country, they will not be making their next fleet decisions for at least another couple of years, when the franchise is up for rebid (if it gets that far in the present structure).
There is no fat controller any more, only franchise contracts.

 

[59CosG95]

There is no fat controller any more, only franchise contracts.

It could be argued that such franchises are run by "horizontally gifted chief operations managers"... (to quote Gary Delaney on MTW), but that's beside the point.

 

[Indigo Soup]

At all other times the fire system is "live" and should it go off anyone in the power car(including the cab and guards van) would be quickly suffocated.

In which case someone has either made a mess of the Inergen system, or the rules are incredibly paranoid about the possible consequences of it being triggered. I'm fairly familiar with the workings of Inergen, and the gas mix is carefully calibrated to ensure that it will extinguish a fire without suffocating personnel in the space. I wouldn't be wild about allowing passenger access, but staff carrying out defined duties (e.g. securing bikes) shouldn't be an issue. Unless it's actually a CO2 system in which case that risk would be present.

Whatever the reasons, I think there's going to be an awkward moment when someone realises that the 'new trains with more room for bikes' don't actually have more room for bikes unless travelling end to end. And that half of that extra space becomes unavailable several minutes before departure.

 

[chuff chuff]

You also have to remember the driver requires access around that area and a pile of bikes would hinder that.

 

[swaldman]

You also have to remember the driver requires access around that area and a pile of bikes would hinder that.

You mean, around the area that was (unless I misunderstand) expressly designed for luggage?

 

[43096]

The reason bikes can only be carried end to end in the power cars is due to very strict rules regarding the Inergen fire system fitted in the power cars. There are only 2 situations where ANYONE is pernitted to enter a power car - either when it is shut down or the driver has a key in. At all other times the fire system is "live" and should it go off anyone in the power car(including the cab and guards van) would be quickly suffocated. Therefore it is not possible to access the power cars at intermediate stations as it would require either the power car be shut down, or the driver running up and down the train to put a key in.
The operating procedure requires the buffer end power be shut down a terminal stations, so bikes can be loaded then. Once the driver starts it up its out of bounds. (so no last minute bikes!) Bikes can still be put in the leading power car providing the driver is there with a key in the desk.

What a load of paranoid, over-reacting health & safety nonsense. AFAIAA the Inergen system only covers the clean air compartment and engine room, and not the van area (or indeed the adjacent cooler group). The Inergen bottles are in the van because that was the place with space for them, but they do not vent into the van.

The bigger risk with the van is the doors, which can be temperamental and if not properly closed can come open when in service.

 

[marks87]

What a load of paranoid, over-reacting health & safety nonsense. AFAIAA the Inergen system only covers the clean air compartment and engine room, and not the van area (or indeed the adjacent cooler group). The Inergen bottles are in the van because that was the place with space for them, but they do not vent into the van.

The bigger risk with the van is the doors, which can be temperamental and if not properly closed can come open when in service.

What about access from the adjoining coach via the corridor?

That could also reduce dwell times if bikes were to be collected prior to arrival, although it would require the guard to be there which might not be practical.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Looking at the layouts, it's not obvious to me why each standard class coach couldn't have a toilet at one end and cycle storage at the other, rather than just one coach having cycle storage and giving up the toilet for it. I'm sure there's an excellent reason, I just can't figure out what it is!

It was claimed at the time that it was planned that way but they decided not to go ahead with it for cost reasons, I think it was a newspaper article making the claim so I don't know how true it is.

 

[scotraildriver]

What about access from the adjoining coach via the corridor?

That could also reduce dwell times if bikes were to be collected prior to arrival, although it would require the guard to be there which might not be practical.

There is no access from the coach to the power car - the sealed security door must always be locked shut.

 

[marks87]

There is no access from the coach to the power car - the sealed security door must always be locked shut.

Well, yes, but by the same token the external door says no public access.

There is an internal route between the power car and the adjoining coach. The regulations might not currently permit its use, but regulations can and do change. That’s why I threw it out there as a potential idea.

 

[43096]

The reason bikes can only be carried end to end in the power cars is due to very strict rules regarding the Inergen fire system fitted in the power cars. There are only 2 situations where ANYONE is pernitted to enter a power car - either when it is shut down or the driver has a key in. At all other times the fire system is "live" and should it go off anyone in the power car(including the cab and guards van) would be quickly suffocated. Therefore it is not possible to access the power cars at intermediate stations as it would require either the power car be shut down, or the driver running up and down the train to put a key in.
The operating procedure requires the buffer end power be shut down a terminal stations, so bikes can be loaded then. Once the driver starts it up its out of bounds. (so no last minute bikes!) Bikes can still be put in the leading power car providing the driver is there with a key in the desk.

Having checked with an HST technical guru, it's an even bigger load of cr@p than I thought.

The Inergen system is live at all times and is only de-activated when the BIS (Battery isolating Switch) is out, but Inergen will not auto-activate if there is a key in the desk. So you can go in there with no key in the desk and engine shut down and Inergen can still extinguish a fire. In fact, if the engine is running it is less risky as the engine will shut down if Inergen is activated. Regardless, if the fire alarm system is activated the fire bells will go off, which ought to be a bit of a warning!

Sounds to me like the person who came up with that instruction is either someone who doesn't know HSTs or was coming up with an excuse for not using the vans.

 

[BRX]

A reason previously given on this thread was that the sliding doors are too difficult to maintain in working order.

 

[JModulo]

And on the topic of HSTs specifically, ScotRail have released proposed renders of the cycle storage space on the planned conversion of 153s for the West Highland Line (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-and-baggage-vans-for-scotrail.159376/page-26). I mentioned in that thread that it would be great to see such a space in an HST trailer

I believe it is now being looked at to fit storage into the power cars.

 

[sprinterguy]

I believe it is now being looked at to fit storage into the power cars.

As noted above, it's always been the plan to have storage space for three cycles in each of the power cars, for passengers making end to end journeys. Unless you're referring to something additional to this?

 

[JModulo]

As noted above, it's always been the plan to have storage space for three cycles in each of the power cars, for passengers making end to end journeys. Unless you're referring to something additional to this?

Something additional is being designed and in the works.

 

[Highland37]

Predictions for this time in 2019?

* Less than ten full sets will have been delivered by Wabtec at December 2019
* The second set will not be delivered before 30th January 2019
* Major questions will be appearing in the mass media, in the usual scandal/witch hunt style.
* Some kind of interim order will be proposed that will effectively end the introduction of the full HST fleet.

 

[sprinterguy]

Something additional is being designed and in the works.

Ah that's good to hear, just wanted to check my understanding, thanks.

 

[JModulo]

* Less than ten full sets will have been delivered by Wabtec at December 2019

Will be interesting to see how quickly Brodie's can turn a set round.

 

[380101]

Will be interesting to see how quickly Brodie's can turn a set round.

Do Brodies now have a contract off Wabtec to do so? The only HSTs that have been in Brodies recently were slam door sets there to get some work done before entering service with ScotRail last week.

 

[Norther Monkey]

Predictions for this time in 2019?

* Less than ten full sets will have been delivered by Wabtec at December 2019
* The second set will not be delivered before 30th January 2019
* Major questions will be appearing in the mass media, in the usual scandal/witch hunt style.
* Some kind of interim order will be proposed that will effectively end the introduction of the full HST fleet.

Could you top and tail a 4 car 365 set with class 43s?

 

[GrimShady]

Predictions for this time in 2019?

* Less than ten full sets will have been delivered by Wabtec at December 2019
* The second set will not be delivered before 30th January 2019
* Major questions will be appearing in the mass media, in the usual scandal/witch hunt style.
* Some kind of interim order will be proposed that will effectively end the introduction of the full HST fleet.

Sounds about right.

MkVs and some suitable locomotive?

 

[Journeyman]

Could you top and tail a 4 car 365 set with class 43s?

Might be easier with a 442. *ducks*