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TransPennine Express North Route, New Timetable

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scarby

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While the reduction in cancellations on the York-Scarborough branch is to be welcomed, the service is still a long way short of being up to scratch.

On Thursday, 6 inbound services were 10 minutes late or more into Scarborough and there was a heavy 58 minute delay to the 14.35 inbound, plus the 19.35 inbound/19.46 out cancelled.

Yesterday evening three inbound services were around 30 late.

And this morning the 07.15 inbound and 07.46 outbound cancelled.

So overall still a lot of waiting around for many customers and nowhere near good enough.
 
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northernchris

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There's the usual traincrew shortages causing problems across North TPE again this evening
 

158756

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While the reduction in cancellations on the York-Scarborough branch is to be welcomed, the service is still a long way short of being up to scratch.

On Thursday, 6 inbound services were 10 minutes late or more into Scarborough and there was a heavy 58 minute delay to the 14.35 inbound, plus the 19.35 inbound/19.46 out cancelled.

Yesterday evening three inbound services were around 30 late.

And this morning the 07.15 inbound and 07.46 outbound cancelled.

So overall still a lot of waiting around for many customers and nowhere near good enough.

Looking at these delays, the basic problem still looks to be that TPE services travel too far, across too many congested areas of the network. They lose a couple of minutes out of Liverpool, a few more in Manchester, more by Huddersfield, then get stuck behind either the Huddersfield -Leeds or Leeds - York stoppers.

IMO the Manchester - Huddersfield stopper needs more than 9 minutes turnaround time at Piccadilly. It has half an hour at Huddersfield, but that's useless when it can't depart on time because of other trains running late, and then it runs late on the way back delaying other eastbound services. Longer turnarounds at Newcastle on the Manchester Airport service would also ensure more trains run the full distance. I don't think the practice of Northern terminating trains in Piccadilly platforms 13 and 14 helps either- it might work as timetabled, but causes queues when there's disruption.
 

northernchris

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Is the 9 min turnaround at Piccadilly down to platform availability? Increase it and it could impact other services. Things have improved since the timetable change though, bar the Saturday traincrew shortages
 

Greybeard33

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I don't think the practice of Northern terminating trains in Piccadilly platforms 13 and 14 helps either- it might work as timetabled, but causes queues when there's disruption.
Northern terminations in Piccadilly Platforms 13/14 are a temporary expedient, due to the electrification delay.

From the May 2019 timetable change, all Northern trains from the Castlefield corridor should continue either to the Airport or to Stockport and beyond.
 

LittleAH

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It was actually good signalling as the signaller had 1M90 (Glasgow-Airport)around it at Oxford Road thus ensuring that arrived on time at Manchester Airport.

To show the complex (some would say foolhardy)nature of the Deansgate corridor whilst on 1M90 I noticed a Holyhead-Manchester Piccadilly and a Barrow-Manchester Airport (also both late into the Deansgate corridor) in front of it along with the delayed Scarborogh -Airport coming from Victoria.

Agree totally that the whole cramming of Northern England's long(and short) distance train services into a 2 track corridor needs reviewing as this problem won't ever go away as any train delayed hits far too many others.
The DFT, TOCs and Network Rail need to come up with a sensible solution long term(even if it's revert to less trains as per May timetable collapse but run with more coaches)even if it means franchise commitments need changing.

I'm with you there on the last sentence. Every evening on my way home, I'm delayed. A train leaving in 4 min intervals just doesn't work through that corridor. Especially when a Northern service turns up as only 2 cars rather than 4 and everyone going up to Preston tries to cram onto it.

Simply the infrastructure isn't up to what is required and the timetables should reflect that.
 

Andyh82

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Following the timetable tweaks in the winter timetable, has the utilisation of units increased?

I believe on the North Transpennine there were 33 diagrams previously excluding any that may be additional as double units

( 7 Liverpool to Newcastle, 6 Liverpool to Scarborough, 6 Airport to Newcastle, 6 Middlesbrough, 5 Hull, 3 Stoppers)
 

Chester1

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Following the timetable tweaks in the winter timetable, has the utilisation of units increased?

I believe on the North Transpennine there were 33 diagrams previously excluding any that may be additional as double units

( 7 Liverpool to Newcastle, 6 Liverpool to Scarborough, 6 Airport to Newcastle, 6 Middlesbrough, 5 Hull, 3 Stoppers)

No it's just even fewer (or no) 6 car sets. Increasing layovers at Manchester Airport required 2 more units, 1 was obtained by Northern lending a 170 for Leeds-Huddersfield stopper.

I think the plan for the Mark Vs needs to be revised to allow the extra layover to continue until at least next December. In addition to Liverpool-Scarborough they could be put on Piccadilly-Hull. When the 802s arrive they can start with Liverpool-Newcastle. Not enough will be in service to run more services before December 2019. This would allow Airport-Middlesbrough and Airport to stay being run by single 185s, allowing double and therefore extended layovers. Something needs to be decided to sort things out from December 2019. While things are still not adequate, the extended turn around time and splitting the stopper have clearly helped and cannot be reversed.
 

LittleAH

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No it's just even fewer (or no) 6 car sets. Increasing layovers at Manchester Airport required 2 more units, 1 was obtained by Northern lending a 170 for Leeds-Huddersfield stopper.

I think the plan for the Mark Vs needs to be revised to allow the extra layover to continue until at least next December. In addition to Liverpool-Scarborough they could be put on Piccadilly-Hull. When the 802s arrive they can start with Liverpool-Newcastle. Not enough will be in service to run more services before December 2019. This would allow Airport-Middlesbrough and Airport to stay being run by single 185s, allowing double and therefore extended layovers. Something needs to be decided to sort things out from December 2019. While things are still not adequate, the extended turn around time and splitting the stopper have clearly helped and cannot be reversed.

From what I heard, the extra dwell time at the Airport will continue until Dec 19. The Mk 5's initially are going to be just on the Scarborough runs, with added dwell times at Scarborough too when the mk 5's start coming into use.

The Airport really is a sticking issue though due to it's lack of capacity.
 

BMIFlyer

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No plans whatsoever to deviate from Liverpool to Scarborough for the MK5A's. Certainly will not be deployed on the Hull route.
 

Chester1

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From what I heard, the extra dwell time at the Airport will continue until Dec 19. The Mk 5's initially are going to be just on the Scarborough runs, with added dwell times at Scarborough too when the mk 5's start coming into use.

The Airport really is a sticking issue though due to it's lack of capacity.

No plans whatsoever to deviate from Liverpool to Scarborough for the MK5A's. Certainly will not be deployed on the Hull route.

So the May timetable will provide sufficient platform space at the Airport to allow both the second half of the fleet to run Airport-Middlesbrough and extended layovers? Or will only half of the Mark Vs be in service before December 2019?
 
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I'm with you there on the last sentence. Every evening on my way home, I'm delayed. A train leaving in 4 min intervals just doesn't work through that corridor. Especially when a Northern service turns up as only 2 cars rather than 4 and everyone going up to Preston tries to cram onto it.

Simply the infrastructure isn't up to what is required and the timetables should reflect that.
Would there be any mileage in terminating the North Wales services not going on to the Airport at Vic instead of Picc?
 

Andyh82

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Looking at the diagrams, does anyone know what working forms the 719 from Manchester Airport to Newcastle (1P15)?
 

darloscott

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Looking at the diagrams, does anyone know what working forms the 719 from Manchester Airport to Newcastle (1P15)?
Looks as though it comes in as a 6-car on 1B61 0511 from Sheffield, splits and one goes back to Cleethorpes on 1B66 (0655) and the other to Newcastle at 0719 on 1P15.
 

daodao

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Would there be any mileage in terminating the North Wales services not going on to the Airport at Vic instead of Picc?

Excellent idea. None of the N.Wales services to M/c via Warrington BQ should run to Oxford Road or beyond via the Castlefield line.
 

158820

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Hi all as I dont follow TPE as close as other operators whats routes/diagrams can double 185s turn up on.
 

BMIFlyer

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So the May timetable will provide sufficient platform space at the Airport to allow both the second half of the fleet to run Airport-Middlesbrough and extended layovers? Or will only half of the Mark Vs be in service before December 2019?

They should all be in service well before then
 

Greybeard33

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From what I heard, the extra dwell time at the Airport will continue until Dec 19. The Mk 5's initially are going to be just on the Scarborough runs, with added dwell times at Scarborough too when the mk 5's start coming into use.

The Airport really is a sticking issue though due to it's lack of capacity.

No plans whatsoever to deviate from Liverpool to Scarborough for the MK5A's. Certainly will not be deployed on the Hull route.

So the May timetable will provide sufficient platform space at the Airport to allow both the second half of the fleet to run Airport-Middlesbrough and extended layovers? Or will only half of the Mark Vs be in service before December 2019?

They should all be in service well before then
It is difficult to see how the Mk5A fleet could be fully employed without introducing them on the Airport to Middlesbrough route. That would require separation of the Middlesbrough and Newcastle diagrams again, which in turn would mean going back to chaos of 10 minute turnrounds at the Airport, at least until the next major timetable recast in December 2019.
 

Chester1

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It is difficult to see how the Mk5A fleet could be fully employed without introducing them on the Airport to Middlesbrough route. That would require separation of the Middlesbrough and Newcastle diagrams again, which in turn would mean going back to chaos of 10 minute turnrounds at the Airport, at least until the next major timetable recast in December 2019.

So how will the turn around work when TPE cannot double stack units at the Airport?
 

Greybeard33

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So how will the turn around work when TPE cannot double stack units at the Airport?
The 10 minute turnrounds at the Airport, as implemented between May and December 2018, did not require double occupancy of platforms. A train arrived from Middlesbrough then departed back to Middlesbrough 10 minutes later. After another 20 minutes a train arrived from Newcastle, then departed back to Newcastle 10 minutes later, 20 minutes before the next arrival from Middlesbrough. So between the two services, a platform was only occupied for 20 minutes in every hour.

Now a unit arrives from Middlesbrough and occupies the inner half of a platform for 40 minutes before departing to Newcastle. Meanwhile a unit arrives from Newcastle and occupies the inner half of a different platform for 40 minutes before departing to Middlesbrough. So two platforms are each half-occupied for 40 minutes in every hour, and there are 10 minute overlaps when a Middlesbrough and Newcastle service are both in the station at the same time.

This only works because both services are being operated by 3-car 185s, leaving space for other short trains to use the outer half of the 200m platform during the turnround. The May 2018 timetable was designed to allow Mk5As to take over the Middlesbrough services and 802s to take over the Newcastles, but that is no longer possible under the current timetable.
 

Andyh82

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A way to solve that would be to stop using the Ordsall Curve for these two airport services. Has the supposed capacity improvements caused by these two services no longer crossing the throat actually been realised or has it all been lost in the general chaos of the new timetable.
 

Greybeard33

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A way to solve that would be to stop using the Ordsall Curve for these two airport services. Has the supposed capacity improvements caused by these two services no longer crossing the throat actually been realised or has it all been lost in the general chaos of the new timetable.
I doubt that reverting to the Guide Bridge route would solve the TPE North turnround time issue. Pre-May 2018, the turnround times at the Airport were about 25 minutes, but the York/Newcastle 185 used to have to share a platform with the Northern Southport service. Platform sharing would not be possible using a 802.

A further issue is that, under the current timetable, the Glasgow/Edinburgh 350 has to share an Airport platform with the Middlesbrough 185. That will prevent the introduction of 397s on the Airport - Scotland services while the 40 minute turnrounds are retained - again, 397s are too long to share a platform.

Manchester Airport really needs more/longer platforms to cope with 5-car trains - or fewer services!
 

Spartacus

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Would sending the stock down to Wilmslow to reverse in platform 2, which normally only sees one passenger an hour and one freight path, work? It's around 10 minutes from MIA, so including reversal would be ideal timewise with a 40 minute turnround, and should the inbound TPE be too late it could simply wait at MIA instead.

The evening terminator seems to happily reverse there, even though it's booked to shunt to platform 1. Yes, it'd be a few more miles and a bit more route knowledge (Crewe maybe, just for safety's sake in case of points failure?), but it'd sure beat trying to fit any more platforms into MIA, and be a whole lot cheaper. Probably even worth employing a shunt driver there if the current turnaround includes a rest period.
 
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MDB1images

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I doubt that reverting to the Guide Bridge route would solve the TPE North turnround time issue. Pre-May 2018, the turnround times at the Airport were about 25 minutes, but the York/Newcastle 185 used to have to share a platform with the Northern Southport service. Platform sharing would not be possible using a 802.

A further issue is that, under the current timetable, the Glasgow/Edinburgh 350 has to share an Airport platform with the Middlesbrough 185. That will prevent the introduction of 397s on the Airport - Scotland services while the 40 minute turnrounds are retained - again, 397s are too long to share a platform.

Manchester Airport really needs more/longer platforms to cope with 5-car trains - or fewer services!

The Edinburgh/Glasgow's generally don't share with anything at the Airport, occasionally the Crewe service comes on top at certain times.
 

Andyh82

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Are we suggesting that the TPE and Northern franchises have been let on the basis of longer trains and more services to the airport, but there isn’t actually enough capacity at the airport?

Assuming the Castlefield corridor was sorted out we’d have a Northern Calder Valley service that presumably could be up to 4 cars heading for the airport as well?
 

Spartacus

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Are we suggesting that the TPE and Northern franchises have been let on the basis of longer trains and more services to the airport, but there isn’t actually enough capacity at the airport?

Assuming the Castlefield corridor was sorted out we’d have a Northern Calder Valley service that presumably could be up to 4 cars heading for the airport as well?

That seems to be the whole basis of franchises, someone comes up with a fool of an idea of a service level, it gets written into the franchise requirement, then the poor buggers at the bottom end of planning have to work out how to make it sort of work, while all along someone at the top end of planning knew it wouldn't, while also knowing they could be elsewhere before the proverbial hit the fan so they didn't have to tell someone even higher some unwelcome answers to questions over whether it would work or not.

What is it, nine years since the ECML timetable that had to have extra services fitted in between existing ones without altering them, when it was blatantly clear to anyone with a passing knowledge that it would always require a full rewrite otherwise it would be unworkable? TPE-North was just one stage further by implementing an unworkable timetable before it was rewritten, possibly because too many of the old hands, unafraid to speak up, had been lost in the MK move. It's not the only route that's suffered from it GTR routes certainly have, but it's the most obvious when things go wrong wrong.

In fairness the Dec 2018 timetable had short turnarounds that limited any problems with platform capacity: not least because so many trains were failing to reach their destination due to inability to keep to time.

Go back even further and the problems were obvious with VXC's Operation Princess in 2002: more services with shorter sets often on congested routes with lots of conflicting moves, within a year many areas had been totally cut to improve performance: something neither practical or acceptable on TPE-North's routes (as played out when Scarborough was effectively becoming cut off from Malton), which I suspect would also have been the case with VXC had it happened a few years later. At least then it could be blamed on VXC being wildly optimistic in what they wanted.
 

Greybeard33

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Are we suggesting that the TPE and Northern franchises have been let on the basis of longer trains and more services to the airport, but there isn’t actually enough capacity at the airport?

Assuming the Castlefield corridor was sorted out we’d have a Northern Calder Valley service that presumably could be up to 4 cars heading for the airport as well?
Well, each Manchester Airport platform can accomodate two trains up to 4-car length, or one train up to 8-car length. TPE's new 5-car trains are the worst possible length to make efficient use of the platform capacity.

Nevertheless, the May 2018 timetable provided sufficient capacity to enable TPE to use the new trains - on the assumption that the TPE North services would never (well, hardly ever) arrive at the Airport more than couple of minutes late. And, of course, subsequent events proved this assumption to be correct... at least for those few services that actually made it all the way to the Airport, rather than being turned back at Piccadilly or Victoria! <D
 

MetroCar4058

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Perhaps a silly suggestion but how about pulling the Middlesbrough and Newcastle trains back to Victoria and having a Northern stopper service from Victoria to Airport every say 20/30 mins? This would be a compromise between the local services that have been a bit messed up on the Styal Line and the intercity travel.

Admittedly I don’t know much about this, but just I’d add something!
 
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AndrewE

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Perhaps a silly suggestion but how about pulling the Middlesbrough and Newcastle trains back to Victoria and having a Northern stopper service from Victoria to Airport every say 20/30 mins? This would be a compromise between the local services that have been a bit messed up on the Styal Line and the intercity travel
In which case they could continue to run [via Guide Bridge] in to Piccadilly, as they wouldn't have to cross the station throat.
However if the N Wales trains are diverted to Vic as suggested above then people off them for the NE would be significant losers.
 
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