Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

[EM2]

I would love to have the opportunity to rewrite the timetables, to prove there's another way than HS2.

Tell you what, open up RTT and look at all the services on the WCML, put them on a graph, read the Timetable Planning Rules, and then plan a better timetable. Don't forget to read all the TOC Service Level Commitments, with all the services that they have to run, and make sure you know what else they *want* to run as well.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Do they though?

I thought the DC lines were grade-separated at Camden Jn DC Lines?

Since about 1917 - (though one of my drivers , wrongly signalled out of Platfrom 9 way back - made a break for freedom on his 6 car 501 unit - good man realised he was going the wrong way onto the fast lines and accelerated - cleared the throat but rolled to an undignified stand off the juice - pushed back in by an engine and had another go. Known for the rest of his career as "Fast line Phil" !)

I digress ....But a good tale from the real world.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The people who do it for a living have failed if they're having to concede to a multimillion pound experiment connecting London to Birmingham with no intermediate stops.

I would love to have the opportunity to rewrite the timetables, to prove there's another way than HS2.

I am sure there are some monasteries somewhere , where a cell could be provided for some peaceful planning. A timetable "retreat" ....

 

[6Gman]

I am sure there are some monasteries somewhere , where a cell could be provided for some peaceful planning. A timetable "retreat" ....

He will never retreat!

 

[underbank]

Let's examine Manchester:

Why? How about we take Cumbria or North Lancashire or West Yorkshire instead - you know, places where you can pretty easily get hourly direct trains to Euston from Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith and Carlisle. Take away some or all of those stops and you're forcing people to take a slower much reduced service maybe on a Sprinter without catering facilities etc. Even a 30 minute improvement on the actual travelling time when you finally get on the London train will usually be more than offset by the slower trains to get you to Preston and then waiting around at Preston as some connections from Cumbria could mean almost an hour sat at Preston. Then you may have extra changes at Carnforth or Lancaster, say if you'r coming from Barrow or Morecambe or The Bentham line on trains which terminate at Lancaster, meaning another change at Lancaster to wait for presumably a TPE train to Manchester to stop off at Preston and change again. Then people are surprised that those living in Cumbria aren't enthusiastic about HS2!

 

[6Gman]

Since about 1917 - (though one of my drivers , wrongly signalled out of Platfrom 9 way back - made a break for freedom on his 6 car 501 unit - good man realised he was going the wrong way onto the fast lines and accelerated - cleared the throat but rolled to an undignified stand off the juice - pushed back in by an engine and had another go. Known for the rest of his career as "Fast line Phil" !)

I digress ....But a good tale from the real world.

I wonder if PR1Berske's great grandfather was writing indignant letters to the Lancashire Post complaining that the money would have been better spent in Preston ... ?

 

[The Planner]

Short answer, yes. Otherwise they would have found a solution instead of having to build a multi million line from Euston to Birmingham with no intermediate stops.

not in the slightest bit insulting. What do you do for a living so we can find out what clear failings you must be making?

 

[EM2]

It seems that it's not just regarding the EU where people don't trust experts...

 

[Esker-pades]

Why?

Because I can't address everywhere that HS2 will effect in one post.

How about we take Cumbria or North Lancashire or West Yorkshire instead - you know, places where you can pretty easily get hourly direct trains to Euston from Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith and Carlisle. Take away some or all of those stops and you're forcing people to take a slower much reduced service maybe on a Sprinter without catering facilities etc. Even a 30 minute improvement on the actual travelling time when you finally get on the London train will usually be more than offset by the slower trains to get you to Preston and then waiting around at Preston as some connections from Cumbria could mean almost an hour sat at Preston. Then you may have extra changes at Carnforth or Lancaster, say if you'r coming from Barrow or Morecambe or The Bentham line on trains which terminate at Lancaster, meaning another change at Lancaster to wait for presumably a TPE train to Manchester to stop off at Preston and change again. Then people are surprised that those living in Cumbria aren't enthusiastic about HS2!

If the consultation for HS2 phase B includes the lack of stops at Lancaster, Oxenholme or Carlisle, I will get cross and submit letters and responses to surveys, consultations and petitions. Until then, I can't get cross about such a massive if.

 

[Bevan Price]

I'll have a go:
HS2 will remove the bulk of express services from the West Coast Main Line meaning those paths can be used for other trains.

By serving London to Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle, Leeds, Edinburgh, Glasgow etc. it also serves connections between those cities.

Let's examine Manchester:
Removing 3tph from the bottleneck that is Stockport - Manchester Piccadilly means that additional trains can run from Chester via Knutsford, Buxton etc. without having to wait outside Stockport or use the slow lines or terminate at Altrincham.
Removing the 2tph from the Stoke to Manchester line means that long-suffering commuter towns like Congleton can get the service that they need and deserve.

..

But that is unlikely to happen as completely as you suggest. As I have commented elsewhere, there will still be a big demand for WCML expresses to/from places not served by HS2. Places like Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke, Rugby, Milton Keynes & Watford Jn. Most people are not going to use connecting services (or drive to somewhere like Crewe "New") when they can get to their destinations by direct (albeit slower) services.

Withdrawing most of the "direct" services between "non-HS2" stations will just drive people away from rail services. (As happened in the 1960s, when Dr Beeching mistakenly thought that - when a branch closed - people would drive, or use rail replacement buses - to the nearest major railhead; they didn't and were mostly lost to rail.

 

[underbank]

Withdrawing most of the "direct" services between "non-HS2" stations will just drive people away from rail services. (As happened in the 1960s, when Dr Beeching mistakenly thought that - when a branch closed - people would drive, or use rail replacement buses - to the nearest major railhead; they didn't and were mostly lost to rail.

Well said. Trains not stopping at Lancaster will mean some travellers just stop using the trains (added to all those who've already given up due to Pacers and Northern's general uselessness.

 

[Ianno87]

The people who do it for a living have failed if they're having to concede to a multimillion pound experiment connecting London to Birmingham with no intermediate stops.

I would love to have the opportunity to rewrite the timetables, to prove there's another way than HS2.

Basically, all the information you need to do so is in the public domain. Seriously (and I mean this earnestly, not sarcastically) go for it, and post your conclusions here for discussion.

Either you'll stumble on something else no-one has thought of, or you'll realise that, in fact, the WCML is genuinely full, unless one or more groups of passengers were a serious loser to the benefit of others.

 

[Bald Rick]

It is absolutely inconceivable that Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith and Carlisle will lose all direct London services post HS2. It won’t happen. If it does, I’ll eat another hat, this time on the Euston concourse on opening day.

Perhaps those who say these stations will lose their services will commit to eating a hat when it turns out they are wrong?

 

[Ianno87]

But that is unlikely to happen as completely as you suggest. As I have commented elsewhere, there will still be a big demand for WCML expresses to/from places not served by HS2. Places like Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke, Rugby, Milton Keynes & Watford Jn. Most people are not going to use connecting services (or drive to somewhere like Crewe "New") when they can get to their destinations by direct (albeit slower) services.

Withdrawing most of the "direct" services between "non-HS2" stations will just drive people away from rail services. (As happened in the 1960s, when Dr Beeching mistakenly thought that - when a branch closed - people would drive, or use rail replacement buses - to the nearest major railhead; they didn't and were mostly lost to rail.

But there are several trains per hour, every hour, today that in effect have no 'intermediate' purpose on the southern end of the WCML, namely:

-2tph of the 3tph to Manchester (the ones non-stop Euston to Crewe or Stoke)
-1tph to Liverpool (non-stop Euston to Stafford)
-1tph to Glasgow (non-stop Euston to Warrington)

Completely removing them from the WCML at least (replaced by HS2 services) is of no disbenefit to any 'intermediate' flow whatsoever.

Then the 3tph to Birmingham could easily be replaced by say 2tph to keep Coventry etc. well-served, freeing up a further path.

That's 5tph at least that can genuninely be re-allocated for other needs; paths which in economic terms are worth quite considerable £££££.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I wonder if PR1Berske's great grandfather was writing indignant letters to the Lancashire Post complaining that the money would have been better spent in Preston ... ?

Or bemoaning the new electric tram cars in the capital city , when steam and horses were still in use in t'Northwest ....(this is a lighthearted comment BTW) , and as for the lack of refreshment cars between Blackpool and Preston whereas "them folk" , have Pullman cars to Chesham and Amersham. Till past midnight ! Some of us are up at 0530 you know. Grafting. With no workmans train till 0630.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

It is absolutely inconceivable that Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith and Carlisle will lose all direct London services post HS2. It won’t happen. If it does, I’ll eat another hat, this time on the Euston concourse on opening day.

Perhaps those who say these stations will lose their services will commit to eating a hat when it turns out they are wrong?

A few of us might join you.

Do not forget Lockerbie either ....they will not be losing their direct links in this scenario.

 

[ainsworth74]

A sense a Forum Meet in the offing with all this hat eating being threatened!

 

[6Gman]

Just to return to the question posed by the original post ...

I was initially strongly anti-HS2 for the following reasons:

1. It struck me as a Vanity Project, especially when I heard politicians saying things like "we are the only country in Western Europe without domestic HSR, blah, blah, etc etc". So what? I also saw the fingerprints of Andrew Adonis all over it; a man who - bearing in mind he doesn't ever seem to have been elected to anything of importance - seems to have had an awful lot of influence over public policy.
2. Over-engineered, both in terms of top speed and train length. [Though clever people tell me that a lower speed would harm the business case]
3. Too few stations - I felt strongly there should be a station to serve the Oxford area.
4. Poorly integrated with the classic network.
5. The major beneficiaries would be cities already doing well (London, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds) and if they are advantaged then nearby cities (more in need of regeneration) would miss out (Wolverhampton, Liverpool, Bradford).
6. The proposal for Birmingham. Not sure what the answer should be, but a 4th city centre station seems plain daft!
7. Too expensive.
8. Environmental impact.

So why am I now (broadly, reluctantly) supportive? Because it's the only show in town. If it's scrapped it won't mean a showering of money on other rail schemes. It will I fear set back railway investment.

And - it must be said - some of the nonsense spouted by the antis has made me disinclined to be supportive of their point of view.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A sense a Forum Meet in the offing with all this hat eating being threatened!

We could reinstate the West Coast Working Group of 1999 - 2004 , hopefully with the same good results , minus the odd fall out and rant !

 

[6Gman]

It is absolutely inconceivable that Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith and Carlisle will lose all direct London services post HS2. It won’t happen. If it does, I’ll eat another hat, this time on the Euston concourse on opening day.

Perhaps those who say these stations will lose their services will commit to eating a hat when it turns out they are wrong?

The documents I have seen (easily found on the interweb) seem to suggest that Lancaster will be served. Not sure about Oxenholme and Penrith. Given the expense of providing the Golborne Link it seems unlikely that an operator would disregard potential markets.

 

[6Gman]

We could reinstate the West Coast Working Group of 1999 - 2004 , hopefully with the same good results , minus the odd fall out and rant !

PR1Berske could chair it ...

 

[underbank]

It is absolutely inconceivable that Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith and Carlisle will lose all direct London services post HS2. It won’t happen. If it does, I’ll eat another hat, this time on the Euston concourse on opening day.

Perhaps those who say these stations will lose their services will commit to eating a hat when it turns out they are wrong?

Well the local MP is certainly worried and is lobbying to try to ensure that Lancaster retains it's hourly service, so she's not been persuaded that it's not in doubt.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

PR1Berske could chair it ...

That was my job as Assistant Director.

I always used to say -what we are dealing with , affects people's work and lives , so no holds barred - leave the contracts behind (for now) - and every now and then "do not get personal" !

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A sense a Forum Meet in the offing with all this hat eating being threatened!

I think I'm going to give up my computer software career, and set up a business making edible hats instead. Judging from this thread, it looks like it'll be quite a profitable venture.

 

[sprunt]

Prove to me that Lancaster won't lose its direct services to London, then.

No. You made an assertion, it's down to you to prove it. I haven't asserted that Lancaster won't lose its direct service.

 

[Tetchytyke]

All of the megaprojects which we are fretting about now should have been built 30 years ago.

No, the issue is that infrastructure we did have was destroyed. The GCR, say, or East-West Rail.

My view of HS2 is pretty much the same as the Ringways project in the 60s. And it needs to go the same way as the Ringways.

Do you really think operating trains like that all the way out to Northampton is sensible?

700s run to Brighton, which has many of the same challenges as the WCML without a £100bn suggestion to bulldoze the South Downs.

It is absolutely inconceivable that Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith and Carlisle will lose all direct London services post HS2. It won’t happen.

They said the same about Rugby, Stafford and Nuneaton. And whilst it is technically true, it's certainly not the service they had before.

1. It struck me as a Vanity Project, especially when I heard politicians saying things like "we are the only country in Western Europe without domestic HSR, blah, blah, etc etc". So what? I also saw the fingerprints of Andrew Adonis all over it; a man who - bearing in mind he doesn't ever seem to have been elected to anything of importance - seems to have had an awful lot of influence over public policy.
2. Over-engineered, both in terms of top speed and train length. [Though clever people tell me that a lower speed would harm the business case]
3. Too few stations - I felt strongly there should be a station to serve the Oxford area.
4. Poorly integrated with the classic network.
5. The major beneficiaries would be cities already doing well (London, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds) and if they are advantaged then nearby cities (more in need of regeneration) would miss out (Wolverhampton, Liverpool, Bradford).
6. The proposal for Birmingham. Not sure what the answer should be, but a 4th city centre station seems plain daft!
7. Too expensive.
8. Environmental impact

That pretty much sums up why I remain anti-HS2. I think it's a massively damaging vanity project- it's damaging environmentally, it's damaging to people (the owner of the Bree Louise lost his pub last January and still hasn't had a penny of compensation), it's damaging to other rail investment as it's the only show in town.

I think it's too expensive and you can tell this by the desperation with which HS2 are trying to claim it'll solve all ills anyway in the country. M62 congestion? HS2. Economic decline in Hartlepool? HS2.

It's an over-engineered crayonista's wet dream but won't get approved without the extravagance. Extravagance that will almost certainly be budgeted out of it once the likes of BAM Nuttall and Robert McAlpine have had their fill.

 

[Bald Rick]

A sense a Forum Meet in the offing with all this hat eating being threatened!

We could reinstate the West Coast Working Group of 1999 - 2004 , hopefully with the same good results , minus the odd fall out and rant !

Now hang on. I’m happy to buy and eat a hat. But I’m not at all sure I can afford that much beer. Certainly not at the rate some of that group could (and still can) drink it. (Off duty, of course!)

 

[Aictos]

it's damaging to other rail investment as it's the only show in town.

That's a load of cobblers, as if you said was true we wouldn't have....

1. The Elizabeth line
2. GWML electrification
3. North West Electrification
4. Midland Mainline Electrification
5. Scottish Electrification
6. West Midlands Electrification
7. New trains for TPE, Northern, Merseyrail, Scotrail, Greater Anglia, Caledonian Sleeper and Great Western

Of course as HS2 is THE only show in town then all this isn't happening...

 

[PeterC]

Just to return to the question posed by the original post ...

I was initially strongly anti-HS2 for the following reasons:

1. It struck me as a Vanity Project, especially when I heard politicians saying things like "we are the only country in Western Europe without domestic HSR, blah, blah, etc etc". So what? I also saw the fingerprints of Andrew Adonis all over it; a man who - bearing in mind he doesn't ever seem to have been elected to anything of importance - seems to have had an awful lot of influence over public policy.
2. Over-engineered, both in terms of top speed and train length. [Though clever people tell me that a lower speed would harm the business case]
3. Too few stations - I felt strongly there should be a station to serve the Oxford area.
4. Poorly integrated with the classic network.
5. The major beneficiaries would be cities already doing well (London, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds) and if they are advantaged then nearby cities (more in need of regeneration) would miss out (Wolverhampton, Liverpool, Bradford).
6. The proposal for Birmingham. Not sure what the answer should be, but a 4th city centre station seems plain daft!
7. Too expensive.
8. Environmental impact.

So why am I now (broadly, reluctantly) supportive? Because it's the only show in town. If it's scrapped it won't mean a showering of money on other rail schemes. It will I fear set back railway investment.

And - it must be said - some of the nonsense spouted by the antis has made me disinclined to be supportive of their point of view.

Pretty well covers my view as well.

 

[Bald Rick]

They said the same about Rugby, Stafford and Nuneaton. And whilst it is technically true, it's certainly not the service they had before.

Agreed it isn’t the service they had before. On balance it’s better.

Rugby and Stafford have an hourly clock face non-stop service to Euston, both of which are somewhat quicker than the services pre-upgrade. Nuneaton has a morning peak service to London with more trains than previously (4 arriving Euston well before 0900), and two of those are non-stop in an hour. Plus an hourly clock face service through the day that is still as quick as pre-upgrade.

Looking the other way, pre upgrade there were direct services to a wider range of WCML destinations, but at very low frequencies, and irregular times. Now, for example, Stafford has 3 trains an hour to the Liverpool line, 2 trains an hour to Manchester via Stoke, and for the frankly tiny percentage of Stafford punters who want to get to Warrington and north thereof there is an hourly service involving a same platform change at Crewe. Rugby has vastly improved connections (regular, frequent and clockface) to all WCML north destinations via Birmingham, when compared to pre upgrade of an occasional service at an odd hour. Nuneaton has good connections too via Birmingham or Stafford.