Northern strike action suspended

[Weekender]

I was planning an Easter break on the south coast when this story broke. I will now need to rethink my plans. Following the total surrender by Northern/Dft I would imagine Mick Cash will now escalate action on South Western Railway.

 

[northernchris]

Great news that progress is being made. However, should the RMT not agree to whatever is proposed around the guard role would they need to reballot for any further action or would the existing one cover it?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Arriva have, allegedly been making some unhappy noises to DfT for a while. So perhaps this is not a million miles from what has gone on. The DafT have had their heels dug in deeply for a long time, so to suddenly give way suggests more of a fear of another franchise fail rather than bowing to union pressure. And also consider who is the stakeholder of DB, and a certain political stalemate. Just saying like...

While any connection with Brexit machinations is likely rather tenuous I suspect that nevertheless it (Brexit) is the straw that's broken the camel's back, ie with so many bigger fish to fry the DfT has been told to let this one go. It'll be interesting to see what, if anything, Grayling has to say about it.

 

[dk1]

And indeed, I (and many others I guess!) would be interested to hear of the views of DfT's Peter Wilkinson on this solution ... But sadly I expect we never will

I for one would pay good money to hear & view that one

 

[spongsdad]

Interesting if perhaps Freudian comment about this Saturday; “It won’t be a full service but it won’t be as bad as a NORMAL Saturday”

 

[CHAPS2034]

Interesting if perhaps Freudian comment about this Saturday; “It won’t be a full service but it won’t be as bad as a NORMAL Saturday”

I think the person who posted that is an employee. An interesting mind set perhaps to think that a normal Saturday has a very limited service when those of us with long memories can remember the halcyon days when we had a full service.

 

[robbeech]

If the drivers are going to operate (at least release) the doors I think you're going to see more of them anyway. It will make the revenue part of the guard role much easier.

Unfortunately there will still be the same small number of guard’s who don’t do revenue duties because they don’t want to do revenue duties. By removing their door duties you’ll likely see nothing of them from start to finish.

 

[Kite159]

Good news on the suspended strike action

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately there will still be the same small number of guard’s who don’t do revenue duties because they don’t want to do revenue duties. By removing their door duties you’ll likely see nothing of them from start to finish.

To be fair, if said guards were OBSs instead they'd still be sat around reading the paper. What is needed is sanctions against people who fail to do their job properly, and for the Unions to support this, as such people damage the reputation of the majority of staff who *do* do their job properly and of the railway more widely.

 

[Muenchener]

From your aircraft analogy above, let's hope this issue doesn't suffer a "go-around"

Well, to exercise us, here's a few ideas.

• What about training for all these new trains whilst maintaining a full schedule
• And now we appear to be getting a 6 day railway again, what about Sunday driver availability?
• Electric trains via Bolton?
• Withdrawal - or not - of Pacers by the end of the year
• Northern's "customer service"

Plenty to go at. All in their own threads of course

And indeed, I (and many others I guess!) would be interested to hear of the views of DfT's Peter Wilkinson on this solution ... But sadly I expect we never will

Can agree with most of that and, sitting on hands, will stay on topic.

You may well not get to hear the details of the DfT's involvement. I also have a suspicion that the hand of Grayling has had some input or has issued an ultimatum of some kind to have it sorted by Mar 29th.

 

[scrapy]

I’m guessing something has happened behind the scenes, as they’ve been to ACAS before and nothing ever changed.

I expect Arriva have reached the end of their patience playing this game of the DfT’s making, and either they threatened to pull out of the franchise and/or some money has become available meaning Arriva can now afford to keep the guards without any financial impact.

Rumours are (and they may only be rumours) that Arriva have hit a brick wall when they've approached ASLEF over DOO and SDO operation over the past through weeks when discussing training for new units and have realised that they can only progress training if they end their RMT dispute.

 

[Andyh82]

With the guards back to work let’s hope they Up their game and the old timers who just sit in the back cab stop doing so. I can’t imagine many jobs were they’d be able to get away with such lazy behaviour and not get sanctioned.

 

[WatcherZero]

Eh?

The RMT hasn't caved. The offer was second person on board, which could mean any employee.

Today's offer is a conductor on board every train.

Capitulation has happened on one side only.

They've been offering this for several months, RMT sticking point was it had to be a Guard rather than a conductor, now they are saying its a Conductor.

 

[Mathew S]

They've been offering this for several months, RMT sticking point was it had to be a Guard rather than a conductor, now they are saying its a Conductor.

Do we foresee an argument over the definition of conductor perhaps?

 

[ainsworth74]

Do we foresee an argument over the definition of conductor perhaps?

Considering the grade (with all safety critical duties) is called a conductor on Northern it would be hard to then change the definition of that.

 

[ivanhoe]

There are no winners in this dispute. It's not just Arriva that needs to build bridges with passengers but also Northern Rail Staff.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

They've been offering this for several months, RMT sticking point was it had to be a Guard rather than a conductor, now they are saying its a Conductor.

We’ve had conductors on trains for decades. The term ‘guard’ is effectively outdated; it’s a catchall phrase which can refer to Train Manager, Senior Conductor or Conductor. In fact all of these grades are used one way or another by my local TOC. And they’re all fully qualified train guards. For the RMT to make an issue about usage of this terminology would be pedantic in the extreme.

But then, we are talking about the RMT.

 

[robbeech]

With the guards back to work let’s hope they Up their game and the old timers who just sit in the back cab stop doing so. I can’t imagine many jobs were they’d be able to get away with such lazy behaviour and not get sanctioned.

They haven’t done it to prove themselves when they needed the support of the public, infact it’s been getting worse, so they’re unlikely to start now.

 

[Andyh82]

They've been offering this for several months, RMT sticking point was it had to be a Guard rather than a conductor, now they are saying its a Conductor.

That is quite an odd one actually because I don’t think I’ve ever heard the RMT use the word conductor. It’s always ‘guard’ in their world, yet suddenly they are using the word conductor.

 

[Gems]

Lets not start using terms such as 'Victory' and 'Climbdown' As a Northern guard I don't feel very victorious in respect that everything I predicted has come about.

In reality it had to come about, because these new train sets are causing issues. Not technical issues, issues with training and the whole way they operate. The driver has to push a button to operate the selective door opening for the guard, two buttons to operate it himself. But the issues were that ASLEF has flatly refused at this point to engage in this. I think Northern have had to come to their senses for two reasons, perhaps three.

1) They are saying the new stock will be introduced in May's timetable when not a single unit has been trained on by anyone. There is a very real risk of chaos that would make last years chaos look pale in comparison.
2) ASLEF I believe are possibly blackmailing. Perhaps that is too strong a word to use. But it is clear that they would demand big bucks for the changes, and perhaps the economic case is somewhat weakened.
3) Northern is not Southern. There is no way that a decent reliable service for all could operate up here without a second person.

I always felt something was in the air when Peter Wilkinson appeared at Leeds station the other week. He took part in the Northern side show for the Leeds-Morecambe line that has been dubbed 'Dementia friendly' Just how friendly to anyone it could be without a guard and unstaffed stations was a mystery, but he clearly never appeared at Leeds for that reason alone.

So now lets get back to work and make this work. It has been too long and too bruising to view anything in any way other than a sad episode.

 

[the sniper]

Rumours are (and they may only be rumours) that Arriva have hit a brick wall when they've approached ASLEF over DOO and SDO operation over the past through weeks when discussing training for new units and have realised that they can only progress training if they end their RMT dispute.

At some point the TOCs and DfT are/were going to notice the price tag attached to DCO/DOO by ASLEF in non-DOO TOCs. If the sincere intent is to keep the second person grade on every train beyond the short term, the imposition of DCO/DOO makes no financial sense whatsoever. Maybe we've reached that point.

RMT sticking point was it had to be a Guard rather than a conductor, now they are saying its a Conductor.

That is quite an odd one actually because I don’t think I’ve ever heard the RMT use the word conductor. It’s always ‘guard’ in their world, yet suddenly they are using the word conductor.

Fascinating. Great insight. Finally this forum's studious examination of RMT press releases has paid off...

 

[Eccles1983]

They've been offering this for several months, RMT sticking point was it had to be a Guard rather than a conductor, now they are saying its a Conductor.

No they haven't.

The sticking point was second member of staff. Not conductor or guard. It could of been an afc, cleaner, anyone employed by the company.

This is the first time that a conductor has been promised on every train.

The title guard - is reserved for those who joined under BR. It is defunct in grade terms but most people recognise it. But I can assure you that the grade is for conductors at Northern.

 

[Iskra]

I don’t think we have enough information yet to call who is the ‘victor’ in this dispute.

I hope this means the end of the matter now.

This is fantastic news for rail passengers and the Northern economy.

 

[driver_m]

I don’t think we have enough information yet to call who is the ‘victor’ in this dispute.

I hope this means the end of the matter now.

This is fantastic news for rail passengers and the Northern economy.

Are there any victors? Passengers messed about massively, staff lost a lot of money, and goodwill, mistrust in spades, Arriva brand badly damaged, Govt actually being worse than humanly possible. I'm really pleased that it appears to be resolved but we should never have been here in the first place.

 

[6Gman]

Lets not start using terms such as 'Victory' and 'Climbdown' As a Northern guard I don't feel very victorious in respect that everything I predicted has come about.

In reality it had to come about, because these new train sets are causing issues. Not technical issues, issues with training and the whole way they operate. The driver has to push a button to operate the selective door opening for the guard, two buttons to operate it himself. But the issues were that ASLEF has flatly refused at this point to engage in this. I think Northern have had to come to their senses for two reasons, perhaps three.

1) They are saying the new stock will be introduced in May's timetable when not a single unit has been trained on by anyone. There is a very real risk of chaos that would make last years chaos look pale in comparison.
2) ASLEF I believe are possibly blackmailing. Perhaps that is too strong a word to use. But it is clear that they would demand big bucks for the changes, and perhaps the economic case is somewhat weakened.
3) Northern is not Southern. There is no way that a decent reliable service for all could operate up here without a second person.

I always felt something was in the air when Peter Wilkinson appeared at Leeds station the other week. He took part in the Northern side show for the Leeds-Morecambe line that has been dubbed 'Dementia friendly' Just how friendly to anyone it could be without a guard and unstaffed stations was a mystery, but he clearly never appeared at Leeds for that reason alone.

So now lets get back to work and make this work. It has been too long and too bruising to view anything in any way other than a sad episode.

Quoted in order to say this is pretty well spot on.

Now let's get things working again.

 

[scrapy]

At some point the TOCs and DfT are/were going to notice the price tag attached to DCO/DOO by ASLEF in non-DOO TOCs. If the sincere intent is to keep the second person grade on every train beyond the short term, the imposition of DCO/DOO makes no financial sense whatsoever. Maybe we've reached that point.

Whilst ASLEF members in Northern want to see their pay increase to levels on a par with other TOCs, there is very little appetite for DOO at any price.

Whilst drivers really don't want the extra responsibility they will probably accept having some door duties if it keeps a guard on the train.

Those talking about the difference between a guard and conductor there really isn't any difference. The term conductor in the North (and other areas) was brought in when guards started also doing revenue. Guard is still the official rulebook term.

It must be noted that action has been suspended. There is still a dispute and the RMT still have a legal mandate for strike action. That is not what they want and indications are obviously that things are moving positively.

No decision has been made as to how the be new units will be operated. My contact in the RMT says that:

Guards/conductors will operate existing stock as now and have full door control. They will remain route and PTS trained. They will also initially operate new stock in the same way.

Northern, RMT and ASLEF will jointly discuss any new technology and methods of working and new technology will be imemented where it can improve efficiency and punctuality subject to proper assessments of risks. It may for example be decided that driver release could be brought in on older units.

If door control is passed to drivers the second person would be a guard/conductor (so they couldn't just use a fare collector if short) who is fully safety trained (as they will need to be to operate the existing units anyway).

 

[Tetchytyke]

They've been offering this for several months

Repeating the same untruth doesn't turn it into a truth.

There is an ocean of difference between an OBS and a conductor.

 

[Killingworth]

So far the only victory we seem to see for Northern is that RMT have conceded to doing without a guard on every train - but the same guards will still be there on every train doing virtually the same duties but officially called conductors, which is what they've been for decades anyway. So they've agreed to use different terminology, semantics alone.

The world has gone mad!

 

[SC43090]

Its fantastic news that at last there as been a breakthrough & that the Guard / conductor will be on all trains until the end of the franchise......


i got a message from a friend who's a Guard / conductor quote..... shock iv'e got to go to work on Saturday we've WON....

Reading on the BBC News Pages for Manchester
Andy Burnham the mayor welcomed the news, saying keeping guards on trains will "help keep trains safer and more accessible for everybody"

Northern's managing director David Brown said the firm "warmly welcomed the suspension of strike action which was good news for customers & Businesses across the North....
However, it was unfortunately too late " to reintroduce a full timetable before this Saturday, he said...
He said northern would run about 700 services on Saturday....

In response, RMT regional organiser Daren Ireland said that was "madness" adding it was the "nonsense of a privatised industry"
He said: "Our members will be working normally on Saturday and it is up to the Northern management to get there act together to run the full timetable"

If i remember in late November The RMT offered to suspend the strike action & run a normal Saturday service after Transport for the North said they wanted two members of staff on all trains that was with about three days before the Saturday so whats the differance between then & now......

SC 43090

 

[Bletchleyite]

This must surely now mean that any further new DOO is dead.