Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[387star]

Think they are getting automatic brakingas in the train will stop automatically at stations?

 

[swt_passenger]

Think they are getting automatic brakingas in the train will stop automatically at stations?

That would be full ATO and has never been suggested as far as I recall. Some sort of driver advisory system (DAS) was mentioned a while ago.

 

[TEW]

No, that is right. The trains are being fitted with ABDO, automatic braking and door opening. This will be in operation from Barnes and Surbiton to Waterloo iirc. It's all in the franchise agreement.

 

[swt_passenger]

No, that is right. The trains are being fitted with ABDO, automatic braking and door opening. This will be in operation from Barnes and Surbiton to Waterloo iirc. It's all in the franchise agreement.

Ok, more than I thought had been mentioned. Have they given an idea of how accurate the stopping will be, and will it be on other stock as well, to keep the performance similar?

 

[pompeyfan]

No, that is right. The trains are being fitted with ABDO, automatic braking and door opening. This will be in operation from Barnes and Surbiton to Waterloo iirc. It's all in the franchise agreement.

Correct, drivers however are still classed as being in full control of the train so if the train was to CAT A, or overshoot technically it would be the drivers fault.

 

[pompeyfan]

Ok, more than I thought had been mentioned. Have they given an idea of how accurate the stopping will be, and will it be on other stock as well, to keep the performance similar?

Only fitted on the 701s, they expect it to be fully accurate using trackside beacons.

 

[Ethano92]

I didn’t think Desiro City was significantly different to earlier Desiros. 350, 450, 444 etc all have skirting heaters of similar size don’t they?

From observation, it seems the bottom of a desiro city has a much more dramatic curve inwards than that of original Desiros which is why it seems like so much more of a problem on desiro cities.

No, that is right. The trains are being fitted with ABDO, automatic braking and door opening. This will be in operation from Barnes and Surbiton to Waterloo iirc. It's all in the franchise agreement.

If new signalling needed to allow for this? If used from the start (or when the fleet is fully introduced) I'm assuming it will really help because we will almost bypass the stage where drivers are getting use to the units and generously brake when approaching stations.

 

[swt_passenger]

Only fitted on the 701s, they expect it to be fully accurate using trackside beacons.

So you’d expect that to get the whole benefit of the system in the peaks there should be a minimum number of 450s operating on the same lines, ie the whole of the Windsor side and the main slows?

 

[TEW]

So you’d expect that to get the whole benefit of the system in the peaks there should be a minimum number of 450s operating on the same lines, ie the whole of the Windsor side and the main slows?

They should really be 100% 701. The main Suburban is already a 450 free zone from Surbiton to Waterloo, and they are on the minority on the Windsor Side. The idea behind the 701s is having a homogeneous fleet, and releasing the 450s from Windsor Line work should allow some more strengthening on fast services.

 

[swt_passenger]

They should really be 100% 701. The main Suburban is already a 450 free zone from Surbiton to Waterloo, and they are on the minority on the Windsor Side. The idea behind the 701s is having a homogeneous fleet, and releasing the 450s from Windsor Line work should allow some more strengthening on fast services.

That’s what I was hoping you might reply. So basically any Windsor & Reading side 450s running about now are a transitional stage?

 

[TEW]

That’s what I was hoping you might reply. So basically any Windsor & Reading side 450s running about now are a transitional stage?

I imagine so. SWR's plans only really work properly if 701s are running on everything. It is a small number of 450 diagrams left now, must be less than 10 pairs? The 701 fleet does look just about large enough to cover everything.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From observation, it seems the bottom of a desiro city has a much more dramatic curve inwards than that of original Desiros which is why it seems like so much more of a problem on desiro cities.

That is true. I thought the Desiro City was much wider, but it turns out it actually isn't - only 0.6cm wider - so I don't know why it is!

 

[Goldfish62]

I imagine so. SWR's plans only really work properly if 701s are running on everything. It is a small number of 450 diagrams left now, must be less than 10 pairs? The 701 fleet does look just about large enough to cover everything.

There are three pairs on Reading diagrams so probably less than 10 pairs overall. Don't forget it's not just 450s There are also 458/5s and a small number of 455s on the Windsor side neither of which have stunning acceleration.

The delivery schedule for the 701s is very rapid, with the 707s and 458s replaced first, so assuming that Bombardier get their act together soon (which is doubtful) the Windsor side should be 100% 701 within the next year or so...

 

[Bigfoot]

There are three pairs on Reading diagrams so probably less than 10 pairs overall. Don't forget it's not just 450s There are also 458/5s and a small number of 455s on the Windsor side neither of which have stunning acceleration.

There is also a couple of pairs of 450s working Weybridge/houndslow rounders.

I'd say no more than 6 pairs in total daytime with some extra in the peak.

 

[tasky]

Yes, I have some recent Siemens output directly in front of me.

I don't mean it entirely cancels out the benefits of faster acceleration. Just without that the saving would be even better. So perhaps "some of the savings" would have been better wording. Of course they are fast.

On this subject, does any one have any idea how much time the 701s will shave off on a stopping service compared to a 455? Say on one of the all stations journeys from Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham. As much as 1 min per stop, or is that too optimistic?

 

[BR67]

On this subject, does any one have any idea how much time the 701s will shave off on a stopping service compared to a 455? Say on one of the all stations journeys from Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham. As much as 1 min per stop, or is that too optimistic?

Well, the franchise ITT required Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham in 53 minutes (see Maximum Journey Time: Pattern SD1, in attachment A part 3 here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/south-western-franchise-2016-invitation-to-tender). Currently it looks like about an hour.

 

[tasky]

Well, the franchise ITT required Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham in 53 minutes (see Maximum Journey Time: Pattern SD1, in attachment A part 3 here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/south-western-franchise-2016-invitation-to-tender). Currently it looks like about an hour.

Interesting, thanks - that's not a bad improvement really for passengers starting far out

 

[Ethano92]

On this subject, does any one have any idea how much time the 701s will shave off on a stopping service compared to a 455? Say on one of the all stations journeys from Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham. As much as 1 min per stop, or is that too optimistic?

With some extent of ATO as far as Surbiton, improved acceleration (potentially significantly better if the power supply along the mainline can tolerate the increased demand of power), passenger ease of boarding and alighting through wide aisles and doorways (by squeezing seats against the walls), the potential for faster door release hopefully and honestly maybe the general realisation by passengers that journey times can be cut so they do their bit by getting ready to alight in advance for example (but that could be optimistic) then I'm sure we could see journey time cuts potentially as significant as a minute per stop as you said however less might be more realistic.

 

[Bald Rick]

On this subject, does any one have any idea how much time the 701s will shave off on a stopping service compared to a 455? Say on one of the all stations journeys from Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham. As much as 1 min per stop, or is that too optimistic?

Unlikely to be a minute per stop, most stations on the new line already only have a 30 second dwell time. There will be some gain from better acceleration, and DCO will help of course.

 

[TEW]

A minute improvement per stop is not going to happen, most stops are only scheduled 3 minutes apart. Dwell time improvements are unlikely to be the significant because of the insistence of people in using only the carriage that stops right by the exit for their station, even though it saves you no time once you have waited for everyone else to also leave through the same set of doors.

There was a 707 operating on Waterloo to Woking stopping services yesterday. I was on one of the runs, being driven pretty aggressively I would say, and the train was early at most stations. 5 minutes could probably have been shaved end to end, but that was a quiet off peak service.

Even now on quieter services 455s could easily run to quicker timings on many routes. With a quick train crew services can be waiting time at several stations.

 

[Ethano92]

but that was a quiet off peak service.

Surely faster off peak journeys should still be considered since the railway operates for off peak and leisure passengers too. Although time savings wouldn't be extraordinary, every little helps and a general feel that the service is operating faster would perhaps attract more passengers; or would at least keep the ones that were considering ditching trains due to new, unfavourable interior fit outs for most.

 

[Bald Rick]

Surely faster off peak journeys should still be considered since the railway operates for off peak and leisure passengers too. Although time savings wouldn't be extraordinary, every little helps and a general feel that the service is operating faster would perhaps attract more passengers; or would at least keep the ones that were considering ditching trains due to new, unfavourable interior fit outs for most.

For reasons that are quite long winded to explain, on the SWML inners that would make the timetabling very difficult, perhaps impossible.

 

[Chris125]

No, that is right. The trains are being fitted with ABDO, automatic braking and door opening. This will be in operation from Barnes and Surbiton to Waterloo iirc. It's all in the franchise agreement.

Don't you mean ASDO? That just ensures the correct doors are opened at each platforms and it's already in use IIRC, basically a more advanced form of Selective Door Opening.

I've never heard of ABDO nor can I see anything about automatic braking in the SWR Franchise Agreement, and a quick google search brings up nothing relevant.

 

[dctraindriver]

Don't you mean ASDO? That just ensures the correct doors are opened at each platforms and it's already in use IIRC, basically a more advanced form of Selective Door Opening.

I've never heard of ABDO nor can I see anything about automatic braking in the SWR Franchise Agreement, and a quick google search brings up nothing relevant.

It might not be in the agreement or a google search but it’s going to be implemented from Surbiton and Barnes to Waterloo, when however that’s the question....

 

[Chris125]

It might not be in the agreement or a google search but it’s going to be implemented from Surbiton and Barnes to Waterloo, when however that’s the question....

Is it possible people are confusing ASDO with the plans to fit C-DAS? The latter is mentioned in the franchise agreement and has been knocking about for some years..

 

[DennisM]

Why are SWR considering the comparatively basic ABDO when other lines such as Thameslink have gone for full ATO, is this a short term money saving that will be fully upgraded when funds are available.
Also what are the differences between the two, is the ABDO system independent of signalling, only braking the train in the last few hundred metres?

 

[8J]

Yes ABDO is where the train stops at the correct mark on the platform and releases the doors. The control of the train in relation to signals and and temporary/emergency speed restrictions will still be done by the driver. I'm not sure I'm particularly keen on the idea myself...

 

[Bald Rick]

Why are SWR considering the comparatively basic ABDO when other lines such as Thameslink have gone for full ATO, is this a short term money saving that will be fully upgraded when funds are available.
Also what are the differences between the two, is the ABDO system independent of signalling, only braking the train in the last few hundred metres?

ATO on Thameslink is effectively an optional extra on the ETCS signalling system. To install the latter on the SWR network in London alone will cost hundreds of millions of pounds, so will only happen when the signalling is due for renewal (about 10 years from now).

 

[swt_passenger]

Don't you mean ASDO? That just ensures the correct doors are opened at each platforms and it's already in use IIRC, basically a more advanced form of Selective Door Opening.

I've never heard of ABDO nor can I see anything about automatic braking in the SWR Franchise Agreement, and a quick google search brings up nothing relevant.

We had a similar discussion about 10 days ago, TEW explained it was to be ABDO in post #572 in response to my assumption that full ATO wasn’t on the agenda.

But I then also found it referred to in this post last March in the SWR Strike discussion, where it is called “assisted braking and door opening”, but wasn’t initialised at the time:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-22-feb-9-16-march.161996/page-8#post-3388183

 

[pompeyfan]

We had a similar discussion about 10 days ago, TEW explained it was to be ABDO in post #572 in response to my assumption that full ATO wasn’t on the agenda.

But I then also found it referred to in this post last March in the SWR Strike discussion, where it is called “assisted braking and door opening”, but wasn’t initialised at the time:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-22-feb-9-16-march.161996/page-8#post-3388183

Correct, it’ll be interesting to see how it copes and the operational instructions when traveling on restrictive aspects or poor rail adhesion as the driver will still be classed as fully responsible.