Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

[306024]

On a side note - isn't it about time that timetable planners started working to a minimum 1/4 minute or even to the second?

Some tube lines do time to 1\4 of a minute, but they are self contained and have the software to do it. Timing to the second could be done on somewhere like in the Crossrail Tunnel, where a computer can control the train speed to achieve that. However timing a freight train to the second which has a daily variable trailing load and driven by a human seems like a mathematicians delight that has little relevance in real life operating.

Wonder how much recalibrating every point to point running time to the second for every type of traction would cost, and just what the benefit would be.

 

[Bikeman78]

Class 745 104 arrived today

not my picture

One door per carriage? That will be fun on the rush hour workings.

 

[vinnym70]

One door per carriage? That will be fun on the rush hour workings.

Is the reduction in numbers of doors not mitigated somewhat by the carriages being "walk-through" rather than having physical opening/closing doors at carriage ends?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Is the reduction in numbers of doors not mitigated somewhat by the carriages being "walk-through" rather than having physical opening/closing doors at carriage ends?

Not all of the trains they are replacing only had doors at the ends

 

[vinnym70]

Sorry - I meant internal interconnecting doors which the renders suggest don't exist on the new trains.

So, someone at the end of a given carriage would previously have usually used doors in that carriage to board/alight rather than fighting with a two interconnecting doors. On the new trains someone at the end of a carriage can quite readily use doors in that carriage or the next.

 

[Bikeman78]

Is the reduction in numbers of doors not mitigated somewhat by the carriages being "walk-through" rather than having physical opening/closing doors at carriage ends?

How much will that help? An existing 12 car 379 has 24 doors, even an eight car has 16. I think dwell times at Harlow and Bishop's Stortford will increase.

 

[vinnym70]

How much will that help? An existing 12 car 379 has 24 doors, even an eight car has 16. I think dwell times at Harlow and Bishop's Stortford will increase.

My logic here is that on the current trains with 2 set of doors per carriage you have the following flows for alighting:
Passengers between carriage front and the first door set have to use that first door set (unless they want to negotiate the interconnecting doors)
Passengers in the middle of the carriage have a choice of both door sets
Passengers between the second door set and the carriage end have to use the second door set (unless they want to negotiate the interconnecting doors)

On the new trains with the walk-through carriages, all passengers have a choice of two door sets although the distance between them is greater.

If there is a significant impact I suspect it will be at the stations where reasonable numbers alight AND board - Harlow, Bishop's Stortford as you mention.

 

[700007]

I suspect the new WA timetable might try reduce the number of calls at Harlow Town / Bishops Stortford where possible to try and retain existing journey times to and from Stansted Airport. This might see the calls moved to the new Cambridge train that was planned to be introduced.

 

[JamesT]

Aren't the FLIRT carriages also somewhat shorter than those they replace, so there would be fewer people competing for each door?

 

[Bikeman78]

I suspect the new WA timetable might try reduce the number of calls at Harlow Town / Bishops Stortford where possible to try and retain existing journey times to and from Stansted Airport. This might see the calls moved to the new Cambridge train that was planned to be introduced.

There are already four trains per hour to Cambridge in the peaks. Are they planning more?

 

[700007]

There are already four trains per hour to Cambridge in the peaks. Are they planning more?

Not more during the peaks that I am aware of (is there even capacity for tbat?) - but off peak they want to bump it up from 2 to 3 trains per hour with the new train being a fast service of some sort.

 

[samuelmorris]

Aren't the FLIRT carriages also somewhat shorter than those they replace, so there would be fewer people competing for each door?

Yes vs. the Norwich services, No vs. Stansted Express.

 

[trebor79]

The doors in the middle of the saloon is I think the worst feature for an intercity train.
Overall though they look good and I'm looking forward to trying them out.

 

[LAX54]

The doors in the middle of the saloon is I think the worst feature for an intercity train.
Overall though they look good and I'm looking forward to trying them out.

I recall everyone saying that the 755/745 will be the best thing since sliced bread, a wonderful design, etc etc, now we have them, everyone is moan moan moan ! LOL

 

[trebor79]

I'm not moaning! It's about the only thing I dislike about them based upon what I've seen.
I understand why they can't have end doors and vestibules, but nonetheless it's not an optimal layout for intercity services which tend to dwell for a bit longer in stations.

 

[LAX54]

I'm not moaning! It's about the only thing I dislike about them based upon what I've seen.
I understand why they can't have end doors and vestibules, but nonetheless it's not an optimal layout for intercity services which tend to dwell for a bit longer in stations.

No it was not at you, if you scan back over some of the posts, there has been a lot about 1 set of doors Mind you AGA say as they are double doors, and more space inside the train by the doors, they will be quicker than the current set up. time will tell !

Still going to be interesting to see how the BMU's handle the reduced fuel load as well.

 

[anamyd]

I recall everyone saying that the 755/745 will be the best thing since sliced bread, a wonderful design, etc etc, now we have them, everyone is moan moan moan ! LOL

the doors were brought up months ago

 

[Wivenswold]

The single door per unit will not be a problem for Anglia Rural where dwell times are not an issue or even Intercity services given the queue-off/queue on during the peaks in the Mk3 coaches. Cambridge services will also have 10 car Aventras which will increase capacity and share the load. You never know you might end up keeping the 379s on the West Side if the promised platform extensions don't happen. We'll have your 745s on the Clacton - London service, everyone's happy.

 

[jopsuk]

All the stations that Stansted Express services call at have long enough platforms for the 745s. As with the GEML, it is platforms for class 720 services that are the problem

 

[MrPIC]

The Stansted Flirts will not have any internal sliding saloon doors but eh Norwich ones will.

 

[MrPIC]

All the stations that Stansted Express services call at have long enough platforms for the 745s. As with the GEML, it is platforms for class 720 services that are the problem

Aren;t most of the GE platforms 12 long though? Most WA platforms are only 8 so would think it will be worse over there, what with some places like Hertford East needing Signals and points moved, along with those few stations on the Lea Valley with crossings at the rear of the platform and a signal at the front. Its going to be SDO at pretty much ever WAML station for 10/12 cars

 

[Mordac]

I'm not moaning! It's about the only thing I dislike about them based upon what I've seen.
I understand why they can't have end doors and vestibules, but nonetheless it's not an optimal layout for intercity services which tend to dwell for a bit longer in stations.

The reason they dwell longer is because they have end doors though.

 

[jopsuk]

Aren;t most of the GE platforms 12 long though? Most WA platforms are only 8 so would think it will be worse over there, what with some places like Hertford East needing Signals and points moved, along with those few stations on the Lea Valley with crossings at the rear of the platform and a signal at the front. Its going to be SDO at pretty much ever WAML station for 10/12 cars

on the West Anglia the 745s will only be used on Stansted Express, which only has calls at Tottenham Hale, Cheshunt*, Broxbourne*, Harlow Town, Sawbridgeworth, Bishops Stortford and Stansted Mountfichet, all of which have 240m+ platforms.

Which is relevant, as Wivenswold was suggesting that the 745s should be redeployed to Clacton if platforms weren't extended on the West Anglia in time. There will be issues for the 720s (Hertford East as noted, other more rural stations) but that doesn't affect the 745s.

(The Hertford East service should have been turned over to London Overground in my opinion)

 

[MrPIC]

Agreed about ARL taking the Hertford trains, I think that's the idea in the future for Crossrail 2 anyway. Quite right about those Stanex stops however I've heard that they won't be stopping barely anywhere if it can be helped,certainly not Mountfitchet, Cheshunt or Broxbourne. Tbh I've no idea how the new timetable will play with West Anglia services, for one thing 10 flirts doesn't seem enough for a 15 minute service, which makes me think it will be completely altered.
Anyhow, I'm sure it will all one together eventually

 

[jopsuk]

The current 15 minute service pattern requires 9 diagrams. 10 sets is enough.

 

[dk1]

Agreed about ARL taking the Hertford trains, I think that's the idea in the future for Crossrail 2 anyway. Quite right about those Stanex stops however I've heard that they won't be stopping barely anywhere if it can be helped,certainly not Mountfitchet, Cheshunt or Broxbourne. Tbh I've no idea how the new timetable will play with West Anglia services, for one thing 10 flirts doesn't seem enough for a 15 minute service, which makes me think it will be completely altered.
Anyhow, I'm sure it will all one together eventually

Takes nine units to operate the 15min frequency airport service so will be tight. Units will also work a daily Norwich service to cycle them to/from Crown Point every two weeks. I think 720 substitution will be neccesary on a regular basis.

 

[MrPIC]

Well, assuming no more than 1 set is stopped at the depot at any one time

 

[306024]

The Hertford East service was considered for transfer to TfL, but political boundaries rather that operational convenience won the argument.

As mentioned above Stansted Express currently requires 9 circuits to operate, and is planned so there is always a train available in the platform at both ends. With ambitious planning you could reduce that to 8 circuits, but that comes with performance risk. Quite how it is sensible to maintain a fleet 115 miles away (electrically) from their usual routes is something only the bid team can explain though.

The Norwich service currently requires 10 circuits to operate plus one peak diagram. The bid team thought that could be reduced to 8 circuits , which probably gives a clue as to what planet they live on.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The Norwich service currently requires 10 circuits to operate plus one peak diagram. The bid team thought that could be reduced to 8 circuits , which probably gives a clue as to what planet they live on.

That's what you get when the bid team is full of finance people, numbers people, and bid managers and nobody with a real operations background. They know the theory of everything and the practice of nothing and according to rumours took very little input and advice from their operations departments.

Add to that a senior management team that until recently had new trains project manager who also comes from a bid management background, an MD the same, and an engineering director who took their first job in the rail industry with Greater Anglia a couple of years ago who replaced a very experienced rail ED director who is well known in the industry and it's not exactly going to be the best fit for the massive project that they are being asked to deliver.

I'm not sure that we should be blaming the GA top level management at the moment for all the woes though, the bidding team have to take their fair share and Abellio management need to as well since after all, they were the ones who had oversight of the bid team and were responsible for appointing the GA management team. A quick look at Scotrail right now seems to suggest a similar pattern is happening there, lots of spin but very little substance. We'll find out soon if Abellio really are, all talk.

 

[Bringback309s]

745's to Clackers, I'd like to seem them in jaffa cake livery with a trolley! Great idea!!