Are Heritage railways trying to have it both ways ?

[YorkshireBear]

Very well summarised. This is just an incident we know about - I suspect there's been plenty more that have been hushed up in the past.

Standing by for "but common sense, when I were a lad blah blah blah..." incoming.

Another good one recently, the unbraked trolley carrying ballast that ran away and crashed through some level crossing gates on the east lancashire railway.

 

[Journeyman]

Never has a member of the public been injured wandering around a shed that we know about, no but the risks are there; train movements, welding, metalwork, untidy walkways, pits etc. so why wait for it to happen or nearly happen before stopping it. NYMR have a great viewing area and I know many other railways are planning for something similar.

Addition by me there - I'm sure it must have happened at some point, given that standard-gauge preserved railways have been around for nearly sixty years. In the past it would be unlikely to get reported, whereas now it's very hard to hush up - it would be all over social media in seconds.

Quite agree, though - you can't allow untrained members of the public into areas full of hazards and rely on "common sense" to keep them safe. I've had track and depot access safety training and the places are absolutely crawling with hazards that 99% of people will be completely unaware of. A lot of people are terrible at seeing what's beyond the end of their own noses, so of course there have to be limits on what they're allowed to do in active industrial environments.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Addition by me there - I'm sure it must have happened at some point, given that standard-gauge preserved railways have been around for nearly sixty years. In the past it would be unlikely to get reported, whereas now it's very hard to hush up - it would be all over social media in seconds.

Quite agree, though - you can't allow untrained members of the public into areas full of hazards and rely on "common sense" to keep them safe. I've had track and depot access safety training and the places are absolutely crawling with hazards that 99% of people will be completely unaware of. A lot of people are terrible at seeing what's beyond the end of their own noses, so of course there have to be limits on what they're allowed to do in active industrial environments.

Good point, i have edited my post. I know of minor injuries occurring actually.

 

[Journeyman]

I know of minor injuries occurring actually.

Likewise - I was carrying some stuff across the yard at my local heritage railway when I tripped and whacked my knee on concrete. It didn't do any lasting damage, but it caused me a great deal of pain and swelling that took some time to subside.

No-one's fault but my own, but it came about because I was walking on an uneven surface and didn't adequately notice. Hence it's not wise to allow people into hazardous areas, especially when they may be wearing far-from-suitable clothing and footwear.

 

[DavidGrain]

Some years ago I overhead this remark on a heritage railway. 'The staff has already gone down so I am going to have to send this loco down on a ticket'.

 

[Journeyman]

Some years ago I overhead this remark on a heritage railway. 'The staff has already gone down so I am going to have to send this loco down on a ticket'.

As in sending two trains into a single track section? Blimey.

 

[pdeaves]

As in sending two trains into a single track section? Blimey.

That in itself isn't a problem. With 'staff and ticket' the staff should ride the last train to go down the route. The driver must see the staff and be issued a ticket in lieu if required. All trains must travel in the same direction under this method of working (i.e. the staff must reach the other end before any trains head back).

 

[Llanigraham]

As in sending two trains into a single track section? Blimey.

Which is why, as an ex-big railway signalman I would NEVER volunteer to be a signalman on ANY heritage line!

 

[HaggisBotherer]

Interestingly, the OP's perspective seems to tally more-or-less precisely with the reasons why lineside passes are a dying breed. He comes across as one of those enthusiasts with the blase attitude of "I know what I'm doing, far more than some pen-pusher in Whitehall ever will. I'm a railway enthusiast and I know all about it. Nothing's going to happen to me."

That's not being 'personal', that's just how he comes across to me. I've seen and heard many of them over the years.

Unfortunately, many who reach for the accusation of others being 'personal' rarely seem to appreciate that nobody ever sees us as we see ourselves.

 

[DDB]

Whenever I hear the term "common sense" I think what is actually meant is experience. When people suggest it is "common sense" something or some action is dangerous so it doesn't need preventative measures, they actually mean they learnt about is so long ago they have forgotten they they weren't born with that knowledge. However everyone's life experience is different so signs, barriers training etc are needed to ensure no one gets hurt.

DDB

 

[Meole]

Interestingly, the OP's perspective seems to tally more-or-less precisely with the reasons why lineside passes are a dying breed. He comes across as one of those enthusiasts with the blase attitude of "I know what I'm doing, far more than some pen-pusher in Whitehall ever will. I'm a railway enthusiast and I know all about it. Nothing's going to happen to me."

That's not being 'personal', that's just how he comes across to me. I've seen and heard many of them over the years.

Unfortunately, many who reach for the accusation of others being 'personal' rarely seem to appreciate that nobody ever sees us as we see ourselves.

Whats wrong with carrying a ladder along with your lineside pass if you have been for years ?

 

[jonty14]

Another slagging match topic. The offensive comments against enthusiasts on here is rediculous sometimes.

 

[Journeyman]

Interestingly, the OP's perspective seems to tally more-or-less precisely with the reasons why lineside passes are a dying breed. He comes across as one of those enthusiasts with the blase attitude of "I know what I'm doing, far more than some pen-pusher in Whitehall ever will. I'm a railway enthusiast and I know all about it. Nothing's going to happen to me."

That's not being 'personal', that's just how he comes across to me. I've seen and heard many of them over the years.

Unfortunately, many who reach for the accusation of others being 'personal' rarely seem to appreciate that nobody ever sees us as we see ourselves.

You're absolutely right. Those of us who are familiar with the rail industry know that there have been several extremely serious near-misses on heritage railways recently, and the ORR and RAIB have lifted the rock on a sector that was previously left to its own devices. Many railways have systems and processes that are not up to scratch, and if they don't immediately change, they're not only endangering their own survival, but that of the whole sector. If someone decides they can go where they like and do what they want just because they have a membership card, and the result is a serious accident, don't be surprised if the ORR turn around and order every heritage railway in the country to close immediately.

 

[Journeyman]

Another slagging match topic. The offensive comments against enthusiasts on here is rediculous sometimes.

I disagree completely. I think the comments have been entirely reasonable, and it's interesting how just about every post has challenged the OP - because it's not the seventies anymore.

 

[Journeyman]

Whats wrong with carrying a ladder along with your lineside pass if you have been for years ?

Because you've probably been exposing yourself to risk for years, and it's a risk that the sector as a whole can't afford to take any more, given the climate we now live in.

 

[Flying Phil]

My railway was told absolutely clearly by the ORR and insurers that photographic permits had to stop and unsupervised public in working areas (depots) was not allowed.

When asked if there was another way to get around it, the answer was yes, stop running trains and become a static museum!

Some appalling behaviours by lineside photographers on another railway ended the option permanently!

A depot / shed is now considered a live operating railway or workshop with slips & trips. Moving locos, welding, cutting, hot work, electrical works, - no place for Jo public. For us to allow visitors in, all activities such as train movements or maintenance must be stopped, the site made safe and the public allowed in under supervision. That is why viewing areas are now put in place where possible.

Fortunately the GCR is still able to offer Supervised shed visits on the second weekend each month when Guides (from the Boscastle team) are able to show small groups round marked areas of the shed. See the website for details.

 

[Midnight Sun]

To quote a much repeated TV ad 'Where there a brame, there a claim'. Which is why heritage railway Managers have trouble sleeping at night.

 

[DarloRich]

Whats wrong with carrying a ladder along with your lineside pass if you have been for years ?

Is this for real? If it is it illustrates entirely the attitude and behavioral issues at the heart of this problem and why the ORR are so worried about heritage railways. Read the ORR report I linked above. Read it and understand it. Your posts mirrors exactly the problems they found.

Another slagging match topic. The offensive comments against enthusiasts on here is rediculous sometimes.

I disagree. What there has been is a number of posts challenged by posters with the benefit of their much more detailed knowledge and experience. What is ridiculous is how enthusiasts seem to think that this level of knowledge and experience should be discounted in favour of their own much more "superior" knowledge.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Another slagging match topic. The offensive comments against enthusiasts on here is rediculous sometimes.

Interesting that, because actually most of the challenges to the OP has come from enthusiasts.... Being this is afterall a rail forum. So I am not sure saying it is aimed at enthusiasts is wholly accurate.

 

[Journeyman]

What there has been is a number of posts challenged by posters with the benefit of their much more detailed knowledge and experience. What is ridiculous is how enthusiasts seem to think that this level of knowledge and experience should be discounted in favour of their own much more "superior" knowledge.

It's well known in the rail industry that if you're applying for a job, you do yourself no favours coming across as a hardcore enthusiast, and you're likely to get rejected if you do.

 

[bramling]

It's well known in the rail industry that if you're applying for a job, you do yourself no favours coming across as a hardcore enthusiast, and you're likely to get rejected if you do.

This may well be true, however that’s not to say that the industry always makes wonderful choices from what is left.

As to the original issue of this thread, to be fair I can see both sides of the argument. However at the end of the day railways have always run on the principle of safety through belt & braces, and in my view the heritage sector should be no different. To be fair most of the preserved railways outwardly come across as professional well-oiled operations, although of course we don’t always see what goes on behind the scenes. It’s easy to dwell on the SDR incident, however thankfully and hopefully this incident does appear to be very much a one-off.

There’s no room for complacency on the proper railway either - just off the top of the head recently there was a serious near-miss with a detrainment at Peckham Rye, and two very serious incidents on the Jubilee Line, one involving a train being driven the wrong way along a running line, and the other a train moving at line speed with multiple doors wide open. And of course the Croydon train derailment. (Interesting how TFL seems to be a theme here?!).

Everyone involved in running railways needs to remember they’re only ever a few rules away from danger.

 

[2392]

Just been reading through this thread. A former long retired colleague at work, was most surprised that the various Health & Safety regulations applied equally to me as a volunteer as it did to the paid staff at the line I volunteer on. On the bases that I could end up just as dead in an extreme case as a paid member of staff if something went wrong.......

Mind you having said the above, long gone are the days where you could just turn up/walk in off the street. Without any sort of induction or training even to a light degree.

 

[AndrewE]

Which is why, as an ex-big railway signalman I would NEVER volunteer to be a signalman on ANY heritage line!

I would have thought the signalman was the least likely to get injured (as opposed to blamed or prosecuted.) If that is your opinion, do you want to be out on the track in any capacity protected by one?

Whenever I hear the term "common sense" I think what is actually meant is experience. When people suggest it is "common sense" something or some action is dangerous so it doesn't need preventative measures, they actually mean they learnt about is so long ago they have forgotten they they weren't born with that knowledge. However everyone's life experience is different so signs, barriers training etc are needed to ensure no one gets hurt. DDB

Exactly right. They might also mean that they learnt without being killed or invalided out - a lucky escape - but don't want to remember it.

 

[Journeyman]

This may well be true, however that’s not to say that the industry always makes wonderful choices from what is left.

Everyone involved in running railways needs to remember they’re only ever a few rules away from danger.

Of course, and that's the point I'm making - a lot of enthusiasts think they know everything already, or that they can take short cuts and ignore things because they're so clever already, and it makes them bloody hard to train properly. A lot of even very highly-regarded books on rail operations are either out-of-date or wrong, and if that's where you've picked everything up, it's not likely to be anywhere near good enough.

Most railways are happy to take on people with the right aptitude who have never been anywhere near a railway in their lives, because they're likely to pay attention and not come with a whole heap of preconceived, potentially dangerous ideas.

 

[HaggisBotherer]

Another slagging match topic. The offensive comments against enthusiasts on here is rediculous sometimes.

A few people seeing the bigger picture and with the wider preservation market's best interests at heart disagree with someone who seems determined not to and it's described as 'offensive'? Sorry but that, to me, is what's 'rediculous' (sic).

Of course, and that's the point I'm making - a lot of enthusiasts think they know everything already, or that they can take short cuts and ignore things because they're so clever already, and it makes them bloody hard to train properly. A lot of even very highly-regarded books on rail operations are either out-of-date or wrong, and if that's where you've picked everything up, it's not likely to be anywhere near good enough.

Most railways are happy to take on people with the right aptitude who have never been anywhere near a railway in their lives, because they're likely to pay attention and not come with a whole heap of preconceived, potentially dangerous ideas.

Where's a 'Like' button when you need one?

 

[DarloRich]

Of course, and that's the point I'm making - a lot of enthusiasts think they know everything already, or that they can take short cuts and ignore things because they're so clever already, and it makes them bloody hard to train properly. A lot of even very highly-regarded books on rail operations are either out-of-date or wrong, and if that's where you've picked everything up, it's not likely to be anywhere near good enough.

Most railways are happy to take on people with the right aptitude who have never been anywhere near a railway in their lives, because they're likely to pay attention and not come with a whole heap of preconceived, potentially dangerous ideas.

agreed - It is the attitude that can be the problem not the interest.

Everyone involved in running railways needs to remember they’re only ever a few rules away from danger.

is the correct answer - and as those rules come from the regulator your follow them or you don't run.

 

[Journeyman]

Where's a 'Like' button when you need one?

Haha, thank you! I speak from bitter experience - in my very early days on the railway, I did some operational training and clearly came across as an insufferable smartarse who annoyed both the trainer and the other candidates. I learned from that point onwards that sometimes it's best just to shut up, and I've always kept my personal enthusiasm for the railway under control in the professional sphere since then.

When recruiting, the last thing the railway needs is a trainspotter who thinks they know everything there is to know already.

 

[Journeyman]

as those rules come from the regulator you follow them or you don't run.

I suppose it's worth remembering that in the early days of preservation you could obtain a Light Railway Order, which allowed you to skimp on a lot of things, and recreate your own ramshackle Colonel Stephens-type set-up which no-one in the HMRI would really bother worrying about too much. It's clearly this sort of thing that the OP is hankering after, using the old "well, it never did me any harm" defence.

Nowadays, of course, you can't do that, and you have to be able to prove you have processes and systems that are safe. This change should have come about far earlier, in my opinion. A lot of people are clearly bitter and angry about it, but like many people, I'm not convinced there were ever "good old days", there were just "old days". There were things we did then because we thought they were OK, and there's things we don't do now, because we've realised they're not.

 

[Justin Smith]

Addition by me there - I'm sure it must have happened at some point, given that standard-gauge preserved railways have been around for nearly sixty years. In the past it would be unlikely to get reported, whereas now it's very hard to hush up - it would be all over social media in seconds.

Quite agree, though - you can't allow untrained members of the public into areas full of hazards and rely on "common sense" to keep them safe. I've had track and depot access safety training and the places are absolutely crawling with hazards that 99% of people will be completely unaware of. A lot of people are terrible at seeing what's beyond the end of their own noses, so of course there have to be limits on what they're allowed to do in active industrial environments.

There is risk everywhere, statistically speaking walking down the stairs is a risky activity (particularly if doing so whilst carrying something) and I`m not joking. TBH crossing the road opposite my houses is probably more dangerous than walking round the average Heritage Railway shed, and I`d have thought a statistical analysis would probably prove it. How far do you want to take this risk averse culture in Heritage railways ? Why not, for instance, insist on central door locking ? I`d have thought the absence of which is probably more likely to seriously injure someone than walking round a shed. I wish to stress here that I`m not recommending central door locking, just using it as an example of inconsistency of attitude.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

I suppose it's worth remembering that in the early days of preservation you could obtain a Light Railway Order, which allowed you to skimp on a lot of things, and recreate your own ramshackle Colonel Stephens-type set-up which no-one in the HMRI would really bother worrying about too much. It's clearly this sort of thing that the OP is hankering after, using the old "well, it never did me any harm" defence.

Nowadays, of course, you can't do that, and you have to be able to prove you have processes and systems that are safe. This change should have come about far earlier, in my opinion. A lot of people are clearly bitter and angry about it, but like many people, I'm not convinced there were ever "good old days", there were just "old days". There were things we did then because we thought they were OK, and there's things we don't do now, because we've realised they're not.

Absolutely so. Sadly I am not absolutely certain these things have all been addressed. Apart from "the bog with no floor" there have been a succession of incidents involving runaways, fortunately not resulting in death or injury.