EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[simonw]

how can you negotiate when you say you wont walk away. people who say no deal is off the table are just stupid.

Walking away is not a real option, unless you are prepared for the harm it will cause. In a commercial negotiation you are normally negotiating to obtain a better position. If it fails then your revert to the status quo. We are negotiating to give things up and if the negotiations fail we will give even more up. The only return to status quo is to remain.

 

[DarloRich]

Walking away is not a real option, unless you are prepared for the harm it will cause. In a commercial negotiation you are normally negotiating to obtain a better position. If it fails then your revert to the status quo. We are negotiating to give things up and if the negotiations fail we will give even more up. The only return to status quo is to remain.

Because admitting no deal is bad means admitting Brexit might not deliver the magic unicorns that the gammon believe in!

 

[EM2]

There's a lot of talk of 'kicking the can down the road', but it must soon be realised that the road is a cul-de-sac.

 

[Esker-pades]

There's a lot of talk of 'kicking the can down the road', but it must soon be realised that the road is a cul-de-sac.

We're well over the fence into the back garden by now.

 

[MidlandsChap]

It is reasonable to expect that of the 52%, some proportion would no longer support the form of Brexit that's likely to be on offer, and arguable that this would amount to enough that the 52% reduced below 50%. Opinion polls indicate a small majority in favour of Remain (https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/).

But you're right, we can't be certain because the referendum question didn't include that sort of detail and all the various Brexit factions have been asserting that they represent the people's view ever since. The only way to be certain of what people think now is to have another referendum.

Logic injected like only a remainer could.

Firstly, not it isnt "reasonable to expect". Just because the pro EU MPs have been trying to distort and derail brexit through stalling tactics ever since 23rd June 2016 , does not mean that those who voted in favour of leaving will have fancifully changed their mind if anything the behaviour of MPs and the EU has only reinforced the view we casted the correct vote. Secondly all the opinion polls prior to June 23rd also had remain as a majority, and look how accurate they turned out to be.

 

[Ianno87]

The ubiquotous Jacob Rees-Mogg just interviewed by Andrew Neill on BBC.

Just kept trotting out the tired 'respect the referendum result" over and over

A man on the ropes out of creditable arguments.

I'm convinced Brexit, if not dead, is on life support.

 

[dosxuk]

how can you negotiate when you say you wont walk away. people who say no deal is off the table are just stupid.

Because walking away means everyone loses, and we lose badly. It's not a winning position for any party to quit and walk away with this situation. It's literally cutting your head off to spite your face.

If you wanted a bargaining position to cause the EU to roll over and give us stuff, you'd be better for us to threaten to revoke Article 50, appoint Nigel Farage as our representative to the Union Council and instruct our representatives to utilise our veto at every opportunity. True, this would destroy our international standing, and probably result in lots of issues with the ECJ, but that would cause the EU significant issue without destroying our own country.

 

[Bletchleyite]

how can you negotiate when you say you wont walk away. people who say no deal is off the table are just stupid.

Walking away is primarily to our disadvantage. It is not a useful bargaining chip with the EU, and meanwhile the spectre of it is slowly destroying UK industry. It needs to be ruled out.

 

[Howardh]

Seems that the people are not allowed to be asked again. Only everyone in Westminster gets a chance to change thier mind, not the people.

She'll keep asking 650 people until they get it right. She won't ask 65m, who COULD come to her aid in a Maydeal/Remain shoot-out. What a pathetic little creature; the answer's right in front of her nose.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And that can only be done if
1. parliament passes primary legislation to amend/repeal the European union (Withdrawal) Act 2018
2. the EU agrees.

The EU does not have to agree to the retraction of Article 50 (legal advice has already been sought on this). We could then reapply it!

 

[Kite159]

I see old Steptoe is still banging on wanting another election, doesn't he ever change his tone?

The UK will crash out without a deal, they will ask the EU for an extension for A50 but two of the countries will say "no". Probably Spain wanting to play hard-ball over the Rock.

 

[EM2]

The UK will crash out without a deal, they will ask the EU for an extension for A50 but two of the countries will say "no".

Or we revoke.

 

[dosxuk]

Watching the debates in the common's this evening, few things about the coming votes are becoming clearer:

- tomorrow is the "do we leave without a deal" vote not "do we take no-deal off the table". If tomorrow's vote succeeds, the Government will change their plans to leave with no deal or future releationship. If it fails, we can still leave with no-deal on the 29th.

- Thursday (if the previous vote fails) is the "do we extend Article 50". If that succeeds, the Government will come back in the future with legislation to change the withdrawl date in UK law. If it fails, then we're back to square one. Government policy will still be to leave with May's deal, and we will crash out on the 29th if that doesn't make it through a new "meaningful" vote.

May's government are still playing games.

(4th biggest defeat in history today)

 

[Kite159]

Or we revoke.

And probably cause riots on the street with those hard-core leavers smashing things up

 

[fowler9]

Read an article today where former Ozzy PM Kevin Rudd described the UK's post Brexit trade deal plans with Commonwealth countries as "Utter B*llocks". I may have worded it differently myself but I would tend to agree.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And probably cause riots on the street with those hard-core leavers smashing things up

Get the army in.

 

[philabos]

Just commenting as an impartial observer, I am reminded of the line from the song Hotel California,
"You can check out, but you can never leave".
Best of luck.

 

[EM2]

Just commenting as an impartial observer, I am reminded of the line from the song Hotel California,
"You can check out, but you can never leave".
Best of luck.

But we can leave.

 

[zuriblue]

And probably cause riots on the street with those hard-core leavers smashing things up

You do need to be careful. A hurled Werther's Original can be quite painful.

In reality you just need to sit tight until the batteries run down on the mobility scooters.

 

[Esker-pades]

And probably cause riots on the street with those hard-core leavers smashing things up

I'd rather do what (to me at least) makes sense to my wellbeing and the wellbeing of the country (IE: not leaving) rather than bowing to something that to me is an act of self-harm on the basis that some people may go around and smash things up.

 

[simonw]

Just commenting as an impartial observer, I am reminded of the line from the song Hotel California,
"You can check out, but you can never leave".
Best of luck.

We can leave anytime we want, a lot easier i would have thought than PA could leave the USA. However, what we can't do is leave and retain all the rights and responsibilities we currently have.

 

[fowler9]

Just commenting as an impartial observer, I am reminded of the line from the song Hotel California,
"You can check out, but you can never leave".
Best of luck.

We can leave, it just makes little economical sense to do so. Yes for some people they had strong personal reasons for wanting to take control back, but, if the leave campaign had said to everyone they will be worse off I doubt that as many people would have voted for it. That is just a personal feeling and I could be wrong. Certainly the remain campaign did itself no favours.

 

[edwin_m]

Logic injected like only a remainer could.

Firstly, not it isnt "reasonable to expect". Just because the pro EU MPs have been trying to distort and derail brexit through stalling tactics ever since 23rd June 2016 , does not mean that those who voted in favour of leaving will have fancifully changed their mind if anything the behaviour of MPs and the EU has only reinforced the view we casted the correct vote. Secondly all the opinion polls prior to June 23rd also had remain as a majority, and look how accurate they turned out to be.

Whereas a leaver's logic is to take the result and assume that everyone supported whatever form of Leave the speaker supports and nobody has changed their mind since. If you are so confident a majority of the population is in favour of a single course of action to leave, when a majority of MPs clearly isn't, then why are you so against asking them?

 

[Howardh]

Get the army in.

The European one?

 

[EM2]

Firstly, not it isnt "reasonable to expect".

So you think that almost all Leave voters think this deal is the best option? As Edwin said, 'some proportion would no longer support the form of Brexit that's likely to be on offer'.

Just because the pro EU MPs have been trying to distort and derail brexit through stalling tactics ever since 23rd June 2016 , does not mean that those who voted in favour of leaving will have fancifully changed their mind

But what Brexit did those voters want?
A no deal?
A May deal?
A Norway arrangement?
A Canada arrangement?
A Switzerland arrangement?
A Turkey arrangement?
Join the EEA?
Join the EFTA?

All of those are Brexit.

if anything the behaviour of MPs and the EU has only reinforced the view we casted the correct vote. Secondly all the opinion polls prior to June 23rd also had remain as a majority, and look how accurate they turned out to be.

So let the people decide then, if you're so confident.

 

[Howardh]

And probably cause riots on the street with those hard-core leavers smashing things up

If rioting gets your way, then I'm gonna throw a balloon straight at the lamp-post outside my house. And I'll wear a yellow jacket too. Now, can I have Brexit cancelled, please?

 

[MidlandsChap]

Whereas a leaver's logic is to take the result and assume that everyone supported whatever form of Leave the speaker supports and nobody has changed their mind since. If you are so confident a majority of the population is in favour of a single course of action to leave, when a majority of MPs clearly isn't, then why are you so against asking them?

Because we have already voted on the matter.

Why are you not willing to respect this?

 

[Howardh]

Because we have already voted on the matter.
Why are you not willing to respect this?

Ah, must have sailed through Parliament tonight while I was away making a brew.

 

[dosxuk]

Because we have already voted on the matter.

Why are you not willing to respect this?

So has Parliament. Twice. Why are the Government not willing to respect those votes? May's deal is *still* on the table!

 

[Esker-pades]

Because we have already voted on the matter.

Why are you not willing to respect this?

We had a vote. The Leave campaign broke UK financial rules. Thus, the referendum should be declared null and void.

Secondly, Brexit means so many different things to different people. That has already been outlined.

Thirdly, new information has come to light. When people have an election, they have an opportunity to change their mind or stick with the same choice based on such information. This should not be any different for a referendum, especially on something so fundamental.

It is a logical paradox to suggest that carrying out a democratic process is undemocratic.